Alleged Qu'ran errors/mistakes

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Actually, it is if you don't want to reject a lot of facts and nit pick scriptural evidence.



Just so you know, it's an extremely minority opinion. Most Academics (western here) don't believe this theory. I think I already mentioned one of the great neurologists Owsei Temkin (I mention him by name because of his Academic credentials in the field surpasses others who have written on the subject) dispel the claim due to lack of evidence in his book The Falling Sickness: A History of Epilepsy from the Greeks to the Beginnings of Modern Neurology. He also said this claim was held was due to it originating from a Greek scholar (Theophanes) in the medevil period.

And from a psychological perspective, Tor Andrae (I mention tor for the same reason I mention Owsei) does the best refutation against the claim of being a mad man.

Also, Watt (who is the most Academically referenced Historian on Islam) concludes;


"It is incredible that a person subject to epilepsy, or hysteria, or even ungovernable fits of emotion, could have been the active leader of military expeditions, or the cool far-seeing guide of a city-state and a growing religious community; but all this we know Muhammad to have been." - W.Montgomery Watt, Richard Bell. "Bell's Introduction to the Qur'an"(1995) Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-0597-5, pp 17-18;
Everyone's entitled to their opinion I guess, regardless of how weak it is :)

Bro, could you share the quotes from that neurologist? Can we read his book on goodreads?
 
Bro, could you share the quotes from that neurologist? Can we read his book on goodreads?

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Unfortunately, I've tried to get a snippet of it on-line, but haven't been successful (I even tried to get this "ex-Muslim" who didn't believe me, to go to his library and scan up the pages (because he said his library has the book), but after he found out I was right he never bothered to reply back). This Neurologist website does a short review of it; http://mindhacks.com/2005/11/25/did-mohammed-have-epilepsy/

But in Owsie's book, he writes a good 3-4 pages on the subject, which I've tried to get it, but haven't been successful.

You can read part of Tor's analysis here though.
 
If I may, I would like to make a suggestion.

This thread, from what I see, was created to discuss portions of text in the Koran which could be considered erroneous or contradictory and how this can be either refuted or reconciled in 2012.

Unfortunately, some portions of the discussion were considered so interesting that the topic somehow changed direction and became, as is so often the case, a discussion about scientific processes and the origins of the texts.

I see some pretty strange concepts of what science is, who said what to whom and how this has no bearing on the central theme of the thread.
My suggestion would therefore be: make the necessary definitions regarding science, sources and method of revelation and only when everyone is talking about the same thing on the same level without personal attacks or challenges, decide of one common point and discuss this and then move on to the next one.

This ensures that everyone knows what they are talking about, at a similar level and what the outcome is. Whether Muhammad received a revelation in what condition is pretty much irrelevant as the contents of the revelation or message is what is the origin for the worldview and system of Islam.

I hope this is seen as constructive criticism and positive input.
 
all topics naturally evolve as the subject matter changes direction. At any rate we have a thread with all said allegations refuted and can be found here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/839-alleged-contradictions-quran-2.html
in fact this fellow's first allegation has already been refuted in that thread if folks would simply use the search feature, they can spare us and themselves all the trouble. Unless they've genuine queries and I am yet to see an original allegation from any atheist.
be that as it may.. what exactly is your concept of 'science' many atheists tote that term around and yet can't use the scientific method in application to what they write. I find that both unfortunate & unfair. You should never exempt yourselves from what you expect from others!
 
منوة الخيال;1531033 said:

At any rate we have a thread with all said allegations refuted and can be found here:




Just trying to help. If this is already covered, ignore my suggestion.


I am yet to see an original allegation from any atheist.


Well, don't give up, there's a first time for everything.


what exactly is your concept of 'science' many atheists tote that term around and yet can't use the scientific method in application to what they write. I find that both unfortunate & unfair. You should never exempt yourselves from what you expect from others!

"many atheists"? Is that like: some say? Maybe I'll open up a thread with some definitions.

the logic of statistics is you can never prove anything all you can do is disprove something!

Religion in essence is the belief that the universe has a Creator. Science is the study of the universe. To say that Science and Religion are opposites is like saying a Macbook factory and a Macbook manual are opposites.

Do you consider these 2 statements to be correct?
 
Just trying to help. If this is already covered, ignore my suggestion.

done!



Well, don't give up, there's a first time for everything.

I'd find it hard to give a d@mn under any circumstance!


"many atheists"? Is that like: some say? Maybe I'll open up a thread with some definitions.
Not sure this particular statement merited a comment!



Do you consider these 2 statements to be correct?
The statement I made is accurate when taken in context and I have gone into the statistics, I can't help if you don't understand what that means.


best,
 
bro, apparently this guy shows that the neurologist proved that Prophet had epilepsy (audubillah).

http://israfilnabeel.blogspot.ca/2012/06/test.html

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Brother, no he doesn't lol, Subhanallah that guys trying to twist and hide it. Bro, read the actual scans, it proves my point even more.

A few important things;

1. That's an anti-islam website, do not take their interpretation at face value.

2. They scanned an incomplete section of what Owsei's book, there's more pages after 13, which the author for some reason or another has purposely left out.

3. They themselves never state that Owsei said Muhammad(pbuh) is epileptic, their argument is; "Owsei didn't say anything".

4. In what they do scan, Owsei does narrate the "battle of the epilepsy claim" without giving his own opinion, except in small cases in the footer. For example, he says;


Muir (721), p.6: "It was probably a fit of epilepsy; but Muslim legend has invested it with so many marvellous features as it makes it difficult to discover the real facts." Whereas the clause is true, there is no evidence for the alleged probability of an epileptic fit.
^His first clear disagreement to an event Islamaphobes have claimed was "epilepsy". Then on the last page that is scanned, he says even more clearly;


"Most modern Orientalist have abandoned the beliefs in the epileptic nature of Mohammed's inspirations. All biographical data apart, it is indeed hard to imagine that the Koran, a body of religious, legal, and social instruction should largely be the product of a succession of hallucinatory epileptic attacks."
And then, even more interestingly he says;


The case of Mohammed is instructive (useful) because it illustrates the danger of diagnosing epilepsy in history with disregard of the historical setting, merely on the basis of behavioural similarities. Only recently has the alleged bond between shamanism and epilepsy been dissolved. (bracket meaning by me)
^The above he's saying that it's wrong to say; "this person has epilepsy, because his behaviour is similar as this person", without knowing the historical context of that person.

If anything, from the above alone, it's clear that Owsei was not favourable of the Epileptic theory.

I know for sure now, that the person who wrote that article was the same guy who ran away from me on a youtube debate when I asked him to "scan up the book images". I remember he used the same arguments as the article of "genetic fallacy", meaning "Owsei didn't claim anything". He said he would and that he would get back to me (with the scans), but he never did, despite me asking him 2 weeks after.

Here now I see the guy doesn't scan the whole thing up and tries to misinterpret what Owsei said. He quotes Mindhacks (which is the same Neurologist website I showed him) of a Non-Muslim (it's clear from the way he's writing Muhammad(pbuh)) writing an article regarding Owsei dispelling the myth.

Furthermore, in many Wiki articles, Owsei is referenced as evidence against the Epilepsy claim. There's even a discussion on it here. I quote (from one of the non-muslim editors, who ironically in this case is telling a Muslim not to be offended if some people think Muhammad has epilepsy);

Just to be clear, it is not my opinion that TLE is a source of Muhammad's inspirational spells. I favour Owsei Temkin's argument that the whole association with epilepsy has arisen from slanderous remarks. Temkin is a highly respected author on the history of epilepsy. It should also be clear that the article itself does not claim that TLE is a source of the inspirational spells. It only states that "some researchers" believe this. There are people who hold all sorts of beliefs, some offensive, some nutty. Wikipedia doesn't align itself with those beliefs if all it is doing is reporting that they exist.

It would be really good if we had the full pages, because Owsei might've written a conclusion or something. But from what we can gather, and from what others can gather, it's clear that Owsei's opinion was unfavourable towards Epilepsy.
 
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Greetings,

This thread, from what I see, was created to discuss portions of text in the Koran which could be considered erroneous or contradictory and how this can be either refuted or reconciled in 2012.

Unfortunately, some portions of the discussion were considered so interesting that the topic somehow changed direction and became, as is so often the case, a discussion about scientific processes and the origins of the texts.
That is because the initial post throws out claims regarding scientific processes and preservation of the Qur'an; alleged contradictions is only one part of it.

My suggestion would therefore be: make the necessary definitions regarding science, sources and method of revelation and only when everyone is talking about the same thing on the same level without personal attacks or challenges, decide of one common point and discuss this and then move on to the next one.

This ensures that everyone knows what they are talking about, at a similar level and what the outcome is.
I agree that we need to focus on one thing at a time, and ensure everyone is talking about the same thing. It is very difficult to keep track of the discussion otherwise, so thank you for suggesting this.

Whether Muhammad received a revelation in what condition is pretty much irrelevant as the contents of the revelation or message is what is the origin for the worldview and system of Islam.
It is a big difference between believing the Qur'an is a true revelation and believing it is the result of hallucinations or other causes. But I believe this argument has been dealt with and we can focus on some of the others now.
 
منوة الخيال;1531061 said:

I'd find it hard to give a d*mn under any circumstance!


By now, any other reply would have disappointed me.

The statement I made is accurate when taken in context and I have gone into the statistics, I can't help if you don't understand what that means.

Maybe the statement is correct, but I hate to break it to you: your claim is faulty.

"the logic of statistics is you can never prove anything all you can do is disprove something!"

This is an absolute statement where I would not see a context dependent interpretation. But by all means, correct me if I am wrong. I don't understand what the "logic" of statistics is supposed to signify, but I don't consider that important.

Decisions are taken by mainly using logic, intuition and statistics.
Statistics is nothing more than mathematics describing procedures for getting results from an array of defined sample data.
Of course you can prove something using the interpretation of data. Example: I wrote down the fuel consumption of my car over a year which proves it used more than 10l/100 km.
 


By now, any other reply would have disappointed me.
I take your feelings into consideration when I write!



Maybe the statement is correct, but I hate to break it to you: your claim is faulty.

"the logic of statistics is you can never prove anything all you can do is disprove something!"

This is an absolute statement where I would not see a context dependent interpretation. But by all means, correct me if I am wrong. I don't understand what the "logic" of statistics is supposed to signify, but I don't consider that important.

Decisions are taken by mainly using logic, intuition and statistics.
Statistics is nothing more than mathematics describing procedures for getting results from an array of defined sample data.
Of course you can prove something using the interpretation of data. Example: I wrote down the fuel consumption of my car over a year which proves it used more than 10l/100 km.
If you don't understand the corpus of what I'd written then why do you comment on it? You come in at the end like a deus ex machina and pick up a statement chop it and spin a tale?
There's no 100% anything in science and yes that statement is accurate! Thus I often find is fascinating when an atheist comes here and speaks for or against something with absolution alleging 'scientists, this and scientists that' and when that doesn't pan out they fall into all sorts of logical fallacies, appeals to authority.
Don't bring science into the picture at all when you clearly have no idea how science works or of its core principles, how we create synopsis, abstracts or guidelines and algorithms to tighten the confidence interval so that the data we present is as accurate as we can make it.
You like to argue for the sake of argument and I am yet to see anything substantive from you or the rest of the atheist clan!
 
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منوة الخيال;1531306 said:

I am yet to see anything substantive from you or the rest of the atheist clan!

You never will.
 
If I may, I would like to make a suggestion.

This thread, from what I see, was created to discuss portions of text in the Koran which could be considered erroneous or contradictory and how this can be either refuted or reconciled in 2012.

.

Greetings and welcome to the forum StopS ...

you are right , let's reset the topic .... you will find some of those members who like to address the person not the point ,so Its your duty to reward them skipping their posts....


you know for sure ,any religious scripture but been attacked ,including the Quran...

on the other hand you know too ,that in all religions ,no criticism but been countered "whether successfully or not" ......

now my suggestion to get back to the topic ,what are the top Quranic errors (from your point of view) ,that in spite of the muslims' rebuttals ,you are not convinced to be a refutation that cleared up the problems?


reagrds
 
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Greetings and welcome to the forum StopS ...

you are right , let's reset the topic .... you will find some of those members who like to address the person not the point ,so Its your duty to reward them skipping their posts....

you know for sure ,any religious scripture but been attacked ,including the Quran...

on the other hand you know too ,that in all religions ,no criticism but been countered "whether successfully or not" ......

now my suggestion to get back to the topic ,what are the top Quranic errors (from your point of view) ,that in spite of the muslims' rebuttals ,you are not convinced to be a refutation that cleared up the problems?

reagrds

Thanks for your support. Unfortunately, people here don't seem to want a discussion about this topic. So I'll just leave it.
 
I am sure members do wish to discuss the topic

If you have questions or wish to discuss a certain topic, feel free to post away..
 
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:salamext:

“I guarantee a house in Jannah for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right; and I guarantee a house in the middle of Jannah for one who abandons lying even for the sake of fun; and I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners.”
- Prophet Muhammad :saws:- reported by Imam Abu Dawud

Cancel-all-my-meetings-someecards-300x205.jpg
 
:salamext:

“I guarantee a house in Jannah for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right; and I guarantee a house in the middle of Jannah for one who abandons lying even for the sake of fun; and I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners.”
- Prophet Muhammad :saws:- reported by Imam Abu Dawud

I enjoyed this alot especially the comic .. I don't think however that this necessarily applies to the dissemination of false information about Islam or casting a blind eye to frank insolence against the religion or Islamic fundamentals especially not while using an Islamic medium for such an outlet.
I'd personally let it go were it not for two persistent verrucas acting as a morality squad with a BB gun!
One who has already professed sarcasm in his intro. And persists on asserting his scholarship and his instant yes man who proclaims the desire to skip over those who attack the person rather than the argument yet takes every opportunity to do just that!
It's not ok in my book and something by way of intro and personal history should indeed come into play when considering the information you're receiving as to the source!
 
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at the end of the day, islam is correct, Prophet muhamad pbuh is Haq. athiests are doomed, and muslims are saved

this has nothing to do with the thread
 
:salamext:

“I guarantee a house in Jannah for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right; and I guarantee a house in the middle of Jannah for one who abandons lying even for the sake of fun; and I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners.”

Now that is a cool quote!
 

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