American Pastor partakes in the holy month of Ramadan

[glo]

Those who have replied with concerns about non-Muslims fasting during Ramadan, how do you feel about the intention and effort of this Methodist pastor?

Is what he is doing disrespectful to Islam, or even blasphemous?
Is he wasting his time?
Is he angering Allah?
Do you feel offended by his actions?

Reading the accounts in and the comments on his blog, many Muslims seem to have responded positively - so I would be interested to hear the views of those of you who seems to find the idea less positive.

Thank you and Salaam

 

[Scimitar]

Is what he is doing disrespectful to Islam, or even blasphemous?
Is he wasting his time?
Is he angering Allah?
Do you feel offended by his actions?

1) No, not at all... this is a very good way to reach a common ground, an understanding born of faith.

2) Nope, not at all... not in the slightest. Allah knows what is in the hearts of men. I believe his intent is a good one.

3) Nope, not at all. He is fasting. This is a sacrifice - and Allah loves sacrifices for HIS sake.

4) Nope, not at all. I refer back to point 1.

Scimi

 

[Insaanah]

while I see this thread has merit in building a bridge between our respective communities, this comment illustrates a common misconception of Christians that I perceive as an under-handed slight against Islam.

Brother MustafaMc has raised an important point here. Among some Christians there is an assumption that they serve God out of loving joy and a genuine desire from their own heart to, and not because they have to, nor to earn rewards/salvation, whereas conversely Muslims just obey commands, do things because they are compulsory, or to get reward/salvation etc, and indeed we had a discussion on it on this very forum a couple of years ago.

Our salvation is only through God's Mercy. We believe and try to do good deeds. We do not simply profess to believe and then not translate that belief into practice through our deeds and dealings. We must strive, and must make effort, and translate the faith we profess with our lips into practice in every aspect of our lives.

Muslims view this life as our test. We do the best we can. The more effort we put in, with the right intentions, the more Allah will be pleased, the better we hope to do, with God's Grace and Mercy, and His promise that he does not waste our deeds and will requite us generously and justly.

We feel no hesitation nor any heavy heartedness in obeying God and His prophet, and in doing whatever we can extra to the bare minimum. We try our best to serve Him in the way He has said He wishes to be served, with a balance of love, hope, and fear.

Those who have replied with concerns about non-Muslims fasting during Ramadan, how do you feel about the intention and effort of this Methodist pastor?

Reading back through the thread, I can't see that anybody had concerns about the pastor or non-Muslims fasting, but rather some pointed out that the original teachings have been lost, but God was kind enough to send His final scripture so that people don't have to work out for themselves how to fast, or what the correct belief might be, and that without the faith that God has made clear and reiterated in His final scripture, such an act while may have some positive outcomes in this world, will have no reward in the hereafter. But that doesn't equate to a concern about him or anybody else fasting. It would be great if this experience led him to eventually come to the straight path.

Is what he is doing disrespectful to Islam, or even blasphemous?
Is he wasting his time?
Is he angering Allah?
Do you feel offended by his actions?

I am not sure how a non-Muslim fasting would be considered blasphemous or disrespectful.
It doesn't really take much time to fast, just eating to close and open your fast, and he would have eaten at least twice if he wasn't fasting anyway.
I don't know, Allah knows best.
Not at all.

So you see, I have no choice but to be good and accepting of you because you are my neighbor and you are Ahl-al- Kitab (one of the People of The Book). This is part of my deen, that I dare not forget if peace and truth are to reign this world eventually insha’Allah!

While we maintain good relations, that in no way precludes us from giving da'wah, showing what God's original message was, and inviting back to the right path. Indeed in the Qur'an Allah mentions some of the good qualities of some from among the People of the Book, such as being trustworthy in dealings; however it also mentions the wrong beliefs of those of the People of the Book who did not leave their false beliefs about Jesus, in the most strongest of terms, at which the sky is almost rent asunder and the mountains almost fall down in ruins that a son be ascribed to the Most Merciful. (19:88-93)

But giving da'wah, inviting back to the right path, showing that the religion ordained by Allah has never included any associates in His Divinity, should not be misconstrued as not accepting the recipient or as not wishing to maintain good relations with them. Indeed, it is because of our desire for good for our fellow human beings, that we give da'wah. Our neighbour is a Roman Catholic priest, and we have very good relations with their family, with interfaith discussion and da'wah happening frequently. But we do not accept their beliefs as being those ordained by God or by Jesus, and they are fully aware of that.

Again, if we give da'wah doesn't mean that we're not accepting of people. But the beliefs we can never accept as being correct. We accept there is an entitlement to one's own beliefs, but if one has wrong beliefs that go against what Allah and the Prophets taught, then we don't say to people, you're ok, we're ok, it's all good, as that's not the case. We strive ourselves, and look to our own shortcomings, and hope for God's Mercy, and invite others to join us on the path He ordained. In the Qur'an we're commanded to enjoin good, and to cooperate in goodness, and to invite others to the right path is a form of that. Let no one be under any misconception that if you give da'wah, or point out God's original message, you're somehow not accepting the other.

It is good to always start with what is common between us, and then work from there:

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). (3:64)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (4: 171)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. (5:19)

I pray that Allah gives this pastor, your vicar and yourself, with the knowledge imparted to you by Muslims and the invitations to Islam you have recieved over the years, guidance to the right path, and I pray you'll consider what has been said and open your heart to the truth.

Peace.

 

[MustafaMc]

Those who have replied with concerns about non-Muslims fasting during Ramadan, how do you feel about the intention and effort of this Methodist pastor?

From what I read of his blog, it seems he has very admirable intentions and that he is making efforts to de-demonize Islam among his congregants. I see that is a good thing.

Is what he is doing disrespectful to Islam, or even blasphemous?

I do not see how it can be disrespectful in anyway and certainly not that it is showing disrespect to God.

Is he wasting his time?

It does not seem that he is doing it for religious reasons, but rather as an attempt to build bridges with Muslims. In this respect I see that his time and effort is well spent.

Again the merit of every deed is in the intention. It could be that God sees good in his heart and guides him to the Straight Way that leads to Paradise.

Is he angering Allah?

??? - can't answer that one, but I can't see how he would be.

Do you feel offended by his actions?

No, not in the least bit.

 

[MustafaMc]

We accept there is an entitlement to one's own beliefs, but if one has wrong beliefs that go against what Allah and the Prophets taught, then we don't say to people, you're ok, we're ok, it's all good, as that's not the case.

Assalamu alaikum, Sister Insaanah. This is exactly my thought as well. I also respond and write as I do to speak what I hold is true with the hope that others will see the light that I see.

 

[glo]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
As always, it helps me learn and understand better.
Salaam

 

[MustafaMc]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
As always, it helps me learn and understand better.

... and that is my intention as well, I am sure, as it is of other Muslims. Our intention is not to insult or to offend you, but to speak what we believe is true as accurately and completely as possible so that you can understand Islam better.

It seems that, as a result of discussions on this forum, you must know much more about our practice of Islam than I know about yours as a Christian. Despite the fact that I grew up as a Christian, I am still left bewildered by Christian theology and the practice of that faith.

 

[glo]

Despite the fact that I grew up as a Christian, I am still left bewildered by Christian theology and the practice of that faith.

That's because despite our shared core beliefs Christians may have different views and interpretation of certain Bible passages or teachings.

My first teachings about Islam came from this forum, but the more I branch out and speak to/learn from Muslims in other places, the more I come to understand that Muslims have a much broader understanding and interpretation of the Islamic faith than I was ever given the impression whilst LI/IB was my only source of teaching.

That's why I prefer to understand people's own understanding of Islam than the 'official view'. I have come to understand that there isn't really an 'official view' - just people's individual journeys with God, which may align to a greater or lesser extend to what certain people would call the official or mainstream teaching.

Our religions are made up of the sum of their followers, so each of us matters.

 

[glo]

I mean, take Pastor Wess Magrunder as an example.

As much as his Ramadan efforts are presented in a positive light, I bet there are many voices who are negative about it.
Perhaps Muslims who feel that his efforts may be ill-informed or meaningless.
And I bet there are Christians who disagree with what he is doing. Those who do disagree are probably quoting Bible verses about not imitating unbelievers, not mixing with unbelievers etc. Those who feel that what he is doing is not according to Christian teaching, and definitely not according to Christian tradition.

And yet Wess Magrunder follows his own convictions and quotes Jesus' teachings on loving you neighbour and supporting those who are marginalised by society.
Has he moved towards the fringes of mainstream Christianity? Perhaps he has.
Is he undermining or weakening his faith? Personally, I don't think so. Instead he has pondered what being a Christian means to him in the present situation in the US and he is taking his stand.

And I admire him for what he that.

 

[sister herb]

I too admire his efforts. I think we need more people like him - from both sides.

 

[MustafaMc]

That's why I prefer to understand people's own understanding of Islam than the 'official view'.

glo, I am intrigued by your desire to learn more about Islam from the 'grass-roots' level of individual Muslim's perspectives. Yes, there are differences among Muslims, but there is also a huge amount of similarities among Sunni Muslims with regards to salah, sawm, hajj and zakat. I also see that beliefs among Muslims are remarkably similar; however, there remains the debate about certain verses of the Quran regarding attributes of Allah (swt) as to whether they are literal or figurative in meaning. There is more variation in how closely Muslims strive to practice their faith as in 1) full beard, closely cropped beard, clean shaven, 2) nijab, hijab + abiyah, no head scarf, etc. I am of the opinion that there is no compulsion in religion and that the degree a person applies Islam to his life should come from within as opposed to being imposed externally. I am more of the opinion of 'live and let live' with more tolerance for the differences among Muslims with a hesitancy to declare someone to be outside the fold of Islam.

My fundamental confusion about Christianity is more with regards to their fundamental belief about God and about Jesus and how the Father is not the Son, but both are One God. Other than adhering to certain beliefs and striving to follow the example of Jesus, I am also at a loss as to how one practices Christianity (in a general sense) with respect to worship of God. Regarding the fasting of this pastor, I believe that he would have done better to have the intention of doing so to get closer to God or to have a different religious experience to show his congregants some of the merit in adhering to the religious rituals of Islam. This would have addressed the point you hinted at about Muslims trying to earn their salvation by being good enough. Fasting is more than dgoing without food and water although there is merit even in that of experiencing a brief moment of deprivation that the poor of the world experience every day - again more in the sense of solidarity as the pastor expressed. Fasting for me is more about purifying my heart and striving to be closer to God through night prayers, extra Quran reading, listening to lectures, etc. and striving to control some of my bad tendacies.

 

[glo]

I believe that he would have done better to have the intention of doing so to get closer to God

Having read his blog, I have a sense that his fasting and the whole Ramadan experience is very much about getting closer to God.

When I entered the prayer room with Larry, I willed myself to will one thing – God’s own will. I prayed that God’s will would be done on the earth, but especially in my life.

In other words, all truth is God’s truth, no matter where we find it. When we find truth in Islam, it is God’s truth. When we find truth in Christianity, it is God’s truth. When we find truth in Judaism, it is God’s truth.

When I start thinking this way, and begin to pray again, then the moment passes quickly. I find myself re-entering the presence of God, and I feel a kind of supernatural surge of energy flow through me again.

What intrigues me is the emphasis of both passages on the right path. Both texts indicate that there is a wrong path and a right path, and that one way leads to destruction, and the other to God. Both selections stress the importance of choosing one’s way in this life carefully.

It’s a sign, then, that one is willing to be vulnerable before God, willing to be open to whatever God chooses to reveal or bestow.

I have only skipped through a few days and found a suitable reference in every single one of them.

Perhaps getting closer to your neighbours ( no matter what faith, colour or background) and extending the hand of human friendship also causes us to get closer to God?

As I said before, one may never see Wess Magrunder's Ramadan experience as in any way compatible with a Muslims' Ramadan.
Why should it be? He is not a Muslims. He is only trying to grasp at the meaning of Ramadan from what he is seeing, learning and experiencing. People might say he gets some things 'right' and some 'wrong' (whatever 'right' and 'wrong' may be, and whoever feels that they can make the judgement of whether it is one or the other ...)
It is his journey. And he is brave to take it.

I would love to see a similar blog of a Muslim sharing his experiences/ feelings of going through Lent or Advent with his Christian friends and neighbours.
Perhaps one day ...
Perhaps - just like Wess Magrunder - that person would discover the many shared values and similarities between our faiths

Salaam

 

[Insaanah]

First of all, there's a lot of talk in some posts of negative reactions to the pastor's fasting. I haven't read the comments on his blog yet, so I guess that's where the negative comments are, as other than pointing out a fact that it will be non-rewardable in the hereafter, I have't seen any negative comments to what he's doing in this thread.

That's why I prefer to understand people's own understanding of Islam than the 'official view'. I have come to understand that there isn't really an 'official view' - just people's individual journeys with God, which may align to a greater or lesser extend to what certain people would call the official or mainstream teaching.

In Islam, there is a correct view, and that is following the Qur'an, the sunnah, the practice of the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his companions, and the early righteous generations after them that learned from them and followed in their footsteps. There are valid differences of opinion among scholars on certain matters, each backed up by evidence, and there are certain matters where we have a few different valid options.

The Prophet advised us to stick to his example and those of the rightly guided caliphs after him, and that if we held on to the book of Allah (Qur'an) and his example (recorded in the hadeeth), we would not go astray. The vast majority of Muslims do this. We are all striving to be better Muslims, to be better for ourselves, in turn for those around us, and of course to seek the pleasure of Allah. We sometimes slip along the way, as nobody is perfect, there may be things we don't have full knowledge on, and apart from putting in our own effort, we seek His Forgiveness and help, as He is Forgiving, Merciful.

Our religions are made up of the sum of their followers....

The sum of the followers of Islam makes up the Muslim ummah, the global Muslim brotherhood and community, but the followers don't constitute the religion, which will always be from Allah, the Prophet, the Qur'an and hadeeth. If it's the case that religions are made up of the sum of their followers, then that means that if individuals go astray, commit sins etc, those sins would then become part of the religion, and the religion would change to accommodate those sins as acceptable, as the people (and thus their practices) constitute the faith.

As an example, in the Bible, homosexual acts were a sin. Some denominations, however, deemed it acceptable, as it had become more widespread in society, amongst Christians too. After becoming acceptable for the Christian lay people, it then became acceptable for clergy in those denominations, as it had become a normal way of life for many Christians. Why this u-turn and change from the original Christian teachings of homosexual acts being a sin? Because the religion was deemed to be a sum of its followers, peoples own understandings and interpretations of it, people's own personal convictions, and a sizeable number practiced it (amongst other reasons as well), therefore it was ok.

This is one example of how teachings of religions gradually change to the exact opposite of what God sent His messengers with.

Thankfully this has not happened with Islam, because while there may be a very small number with views that are not according to the Qur'an and hadeeth, we have the preserved text of the Qur'an and preserved example of the Prophet, which makes it easy to see what's not in accordance, and the vast majority hold firmly to these sources. Just the same as an inadvertent mistake can easily spotted in the recitation of the Qur'an, because apart from having the original preserved words, we also have many huffaazh (who have memorised the entire Qur'an word for word).

For us, as Muslims, we hold on to our sources and examples as mentioned above. Islam is for all people, all times and all places, exactly as it was revealed, without needing changing to accommodate practices or changes in society.

But that doesn't stop us from having good relations with anyone, as I mentioned in my previous post. There are great examples of interfaith cooperation (going both ways) involving Muslims and Christians, indeed our own mosque invites multifaith clergy (Jewish, Christian and clergy of other faiths) and the general public at least once every year for dinner and talks, the Rabbis come again separate to that, and talk to the congregation about current affairs and discuss religious matters. The local schoolteachers also have a good relationship, as they bring children on visits to the mosque, as they do to the church.

I would love to see a similar blog of a Muslim sharing his experiences/ feelings of going through Lent or Advent with his Christian friends and neighbours.
Perhaps one day ...
Perhaps - just like Wess Magrunder - that person would discover the many shared values and similarities between our faiths

Ther are many Muslims who know the shared values and similarities between our faiths already, without needing to practice the rituals of the faith in question. Friendships with neighbours, colleagues, friends, and also strangers, take place all over the world, as well as examples of support, solidarity, empathy and help that take place. Often people do not feel the need to publicise to the world the friendships they have built, the solidarity they've demonstrated, the help they've given, and the fact that they recognise what's common between them. It is quite off the mark to suggest that a Muslim would one day discover similarities and shared values only if they practised Lent or Advent, as clearly, this is not the case.

There is nothing about fasting that would go against the pastors beliefs, other than it being seen as a fast of the Muslims, that some Christians may have a problem with. And it is to be expected that there's nothing wrong, as it is an unchanged teaching of the same God that sent Jesus (peace be upon him). Advent celebrates looking forward to the first coming of Christ (peace be upon him) as saviour. Having a saviour is totally incompatible with Islamic beliefs, and there is no reason any Muslim should need to do that in order to discover shared similarities, or for it to be suggested to them that without doing that, they won't know of their shared values and similarities. If one cannot discover shared values without actually practising rituals of the others faith and going against the main teaching of your own faith, if one cannot appreciate similarities and shared values without doing that, and the other feels it can't be done without Muslims doing that, and simply by meeting, talking, and learning, then something is seriously wrong...

Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with you unless you follow their way. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Were you to follow their desires after the knowledge which has reached you, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. (2:120)

Peace.

 

[glo]

Fasting is more than dgoing without food and water although there is merit even in that of experiencing a brief moment of deprivation that the poor of the world experience every day - again more in the sense of solidarity as the pastor expressed. Fasting for me is more about purifying my heart and striving to be closer to God through night prayers, extra Quran reading, listening to lectures, etc. and striving to control some of my bad tendacies.

The pastor must have read your post, because today he wrote this:

But I hope that my life is forever changed by the experience, and I hope there are long-term effects of my fast. The whole point of Ramadan is to be changed – for good. It’s not simply a set of exercises that one must endure for thirty days so that you can earn a reward in heaven, or earn a check mark next to your name on the “Good” list.

[...]

When we view the practice of fasting as something which must be endured in order to earn a reward, then we have entirely missed the point. Fasting is a discipline which forms and shapes us, makes us into people who are more responsive to God.

That’s why I don’t think I will know how effective my Ramadan fast has been until a few weeks after Ramadan is over. Will I act differently? Will I be closer to my God? Will I be more loving to my family and neighbors? Will I be more sensitive to people in need, to the poor and destitute?

If I manage to complete the 30-day fast successfully, but end up acting selfishly and hatefully on the thirty-first, or forty-first, or sixtieth day, then my first Ramadan will have been a failure.

Would you agree with his statements?

 

[glo]

I haven't read the comments on his blog yet, so I guess that's where the negative comments are, as other than pointing out a fact that it will be non-rewardable in the hereafter, I have't seen any negative comments to what he's doing in this thread.

I haven't seen any negative comments either. Certainly not in his blog (although they may be edited out). I would say that some posts in this thread have been cautious about a) his intentions and b) the meaning/purpose of his fasting - but not outright negative.

I know that he has appeared on radio, and not every caller was positive about his Ramadan fasting.

I am sure that there are people out there (Muslims and Christians) who will feel quite strongly that what he is doing is wrong. But that's an assumption on my part and I may be wrong. Perhaps everybody is behind Wes Magrunder and thinks what he is doing is great. I hope so.

 

[glo]

There are great examples of interfaith cooperation (going both ways) involving Muslims and Christians, indeed our own mosque invites multifaith clergy (Jewish, Christian and clergy of other faiths) and the general public at least once every year for dinner and talks, the Rabbis come again separate to that, and talk to the congregation about current affairs and discuss religious matters. The local schoolteachers also have a good relationship, as they bring children on visits to the mosque, as they do to the church.

I'd love to hear more about the interfaith efforts of your mosque.
Perhaps you can start a thread in the Comparative Religion section after Ramadan? Or, if it's not appropriate in this forum, perhaps you can PM me?
Interfaith working is one of my great passions.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ Peace

......If I manage to complete the 30-day fast successfully, but end up acting selfishly and hatefully on the thirty-first, or forty-first, or sixtieth day, then my ....... Ramadan will have been a failure?

wow, really nice thinking . I wonder , how many Muslims think and act on it. We must follow the values of Ramadan throughout the whole yr but sadly we don't

 

[MustafaMc]

Would you agree with his statements?

His statements ring a bell of truth with me.

Life is an extremely short journey toward the Hereafter and it makes little sense to continually take 2-steps forward then 1-step back although I think that is human nature. If I am less than perfect after Ramadan (which most certainly I will be); however, I would not consider Ramadan a failure. We humans are created imperfect, but we should recognize our faults, repent of them and to ask God for His forgiveness. I believe that Allah (swt) is merciful and that He loves to forgive those who repent and if we were perfect as the angels are, then He would create other beings who would make bad decisions to sin and then ask for forgiveness. Somehow I see that this touches upon why we were created despite the atrocious things that humans have doen and continue to do.

 

[Insaanah]

Assalaamu alaikum brother Mustafa and all who follow the guidance, and peace to all.

I believe that Allah (swt) is merciful and that He loves to forgive those who repent and if we were perfect as the angels are, then He would create other beings who would make bad decisions to sin and then ask for forgiveness.

That is indeed a true and beautiful statement, and I hope you won't mind if I place the relevant hadeeths here, I think there are some more but will just post these for now:

Abu Ayyub Khalid bin Zaid (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him): said, "Were you not to commit sins, Allah would create people who would commit sins and ask for forgiveness and He would forgive them". [Muslim].

Abu Ayyub Ansari reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:
If you were not to commit sins, Allah would have swept you out of existence and would have replaced you by another people who would commit sin, and then asked forgiveness from Allah, and He would have forgiven them. [Muslim, Book 51, Hadith 7140]

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "Allah is more pleased with the repentance of His slave than anyone of you is pleased with finding his camel which he had lost in the desert. " [Bukhari]

'Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported: I asked: "O Messenger of Allah! If I realize Lailat-ul-Qadr (Night of Decree), what should I supplicate in it?" He (peace be upon him) replied, "You should supplicate: Allahumma innaka 'afuwwun, tuhibbul-'afwa, fa'fu 'anni (O Allah, You are Most Forgiving, and You love forgiveness; so forgive me)."[At-Tirmidhi].

The contrast with Christianity is quite interesting. Because Adam (peace be upon him) sinned and because people sin as a result, they have a broken relationship with God, and this can only be rectified by there being a perfect sacrifice (Jesus, peace be upon him) to reconcile man with God, and accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour to atone for their sins.

In Islam, as Adam asked for forgiveness and was forgiven, so we ask for Allah's forgiveness, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving.

 

[sister herb]

I see this like one of those interfaith efforts:

Muslims break Ramadan fast with homeless in Preston

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D24qNdK12hw&feature=player_embedded