Amputees.

[barney]

Hey! I'm about the most devout, hardline, fundamentalist agnostic i know!

 

[snakelegs]

listen, i am better than you because i have been an agnostic all my (long) life!
and i know that much is unknowable!
so there.

 

[AhlaamBella]

Is this a discussion about God and diseases or who is the best agnostic?

 

[Woodrow]

As we return to the original topic. I see the question as one that raises other questions.

Are we capable of understanding Allah(swt)?

Do we really need to depend on miracles as proof of anything?

In terms of existence, isn't the thought of regeneration for parts on a temporary body quite insignificant?

Although the ability of regeneration in many animal and plant forms is quite common, isn't it a greater miracle that people do not have that gift?

Wouldn't regeneration in Humans tend to give us a false view of our own mortality?

Is not the knowledge that we can permanently loose limbs a strong incentive to learn to do things that will not damage our temporary body?

 

[snakelegs]

Is this a discussion about God and diseases or who is the best agnostic?

my apologies. i was responding to barney's

We are left with:
He hears but always ignores. (demolishing mercifulness & justness)
He cant do it
He can do it but statistically he just hasnt got round to it yet.
He cant hear.
He isnt there.

and arguing that those are not the only choices. it is also possible that we do not know. so i didn't think it was off topic.
with that, i shall slither back in to the shadows.
:hiding:

 

[ranma1/2]

...Do we really need to depend on miracles as proof of anything?

In terms of existence, isn't the thought of regeneration for parts on a temporary body quite insignificant?

Although the ability of regeneration in many animal and plant forms is quite common, isn't it a greater miracle that people do not have that gift?

Wouldn't regeneration in Humans tend to give us a false view of our own mortality?

Is not the knowledge that we can permanently loose limbs a strong incentive to learn to do things that will not damage our temporary body?

1. a miracle that is not natural would be nice.
2. huh? how?
3.no.
4.no.
5.no. thats like saying you shouldnt go out of the house or you might get sick or hurt a toe.

 

[barney]

Or drive a car in case we fracture a skull.
Or ride a camel in case we break a leg.
Or drink from a stream in case we get typhoid.
That arguement has no weight.

Do we really need miracles? Well if we dont beleive that God can intervene, then why do we pray for the sick? If he cant hear us why do we praise him?

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2005/07/25/a_prayer_for_health/

Here we have a study on how effective Christian prayer is. It has no effect.

Jesus's promises in Matthew's Gospel do not happen.

 

[glo]

I haven't read the whole thread all the way through, so apologies if I say things that have already been discussed ...

I do believe that God is all-powerful and that nothing is impossible for him.
I do believe that God can cause a great fish to swallow a prophet on the run from his appointed job.
I do believe that God can bring dead people back to life.
I do believe that God can cause a virgin to become pregnant.

Now, I don't believe these things because I have ever witnessed them for myself. Neither do I know anybody personally who has ever witnessed such things, or anybody who has managed to recreate such happenings in a scientific experiment.

I believe these things because an old book tells me so, and because I have a deep conviction that this book contains the truth!

I guess the real question non-believers cannot get their heads around is why anybody should believe these things, even if they fly in the face of scientific evidence.
And its not like only stupid and gullible people believe in God - amongst billions of believers there must at least be a few rational thinkers with a reasonable intellect ... :rollseyes

I think Joe put his finger on the difference between believers' and non-believers' thinking in post 6:
The non-believer says 'I have never seen an amputee regrow his leg, hence no other healings/miracles can be true either, hence God does not exist.'
The believer says 'I believe that God exists and I see his presence in my daily life and in things which happen to me. Hence I believe, even if I have never witnesses an amputee regrowing his leg.'

As for the power of prayer, we have had some other very interesting threads on prayer not so long ago, which discussed whether or not prayer is some kind of 'magic wand' which causes God to do what we want.

I have never heard of any amputee regrowing a leg, and it would be great if it ever happened.
But you will find that believers on the whole tend not to question why God does or doesn't do certain things.
Part of believing in God means to humble yourself and accept his will - even if it isn't what we wanted ... and to trust that God has a purpose in every situation.

You raise some good questions, barney. I will look into verses you gave some more.

Peace

 

[barney]

Cheers Glo, thats a very open and honest answer.

I go along with the sig's in here that read "for the skeptic no proof is enough. For the beleiver no proof is needed" Sums it up nicely i think.

Regards.

 

[glo]

Jesus's promises in Matthew's Gospel do not happen.

Hi barney

Thank you for your last post.

I've had some more thoughts on your original post, with regards to Jesus' promises that whatever we ask for in his name we will receive.

Taken and applied on their own these statements could be downright dangerous.
What I mean is this:
If prayer truly was a 'magic wand' and by asking God in 'the right way' we can get everything we wish for, then non-answered prayers can only lead us to one worrying conclusion: we have not prayed hard enough or we have not prayed with enough faith ...!
Now, I for one would not like to suggest to somebody who has a loved one dying from cancer, that the reason s/he is dying is because the relative did not have enough faith!
To come to this conclusion would lead to shame and guilt - and those are two of the most destructive emotions possible.

Add to the verses you posted above, examples which Jesus gave us on how to pray:

'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
(Matthew 6:9-10)

"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
(Matthew 26:42)

"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
(Mark 14:36)

From Jesus' own example we can conclude that God's will is paramount, and we cannot assume to have our prayers answered unless God is willing and unless they are in line with his will in the first place.

So, personally I disagree with the notion that we can expect God to come up with the goods, everytime we ask for anything in prayer.

Of course, I know of Christians who take exactly that attitude, and who quote exactly those verses you quoted in your original post - if only you pray sincerely and full of faith, then you will receive ...
[Perhaps then, there is the answer to your amputee riddle - nobody has ever prayed with enough faith to regrow a leg ... if they did it would happen! (Forgive me, if I sound a little cynical. I am not trying to be flippant with regards to disability.)]

Indeed, it seems to me that Muslims seem more accepting of what God has for them and what life he has given them, whereas I know Christians (at least in affluent Western countries) who seem to be asking God forever for better and greater blessings ...
Perhaps that's something we can learn from our Muslim brothers and sisters.

I feel that I am going on now ... please forgive me.
It just means that you made me think ...!

Peace and God's blessings (in whatever shape and form they may come)

 

[Woodrow]

Both Barney and Glo just got me to thinking.

The works and miracles of God(as) are not magic tricks for our amusement. We are not here for the purpose of getting God(swt) to obey us and grant us our wishes. Our purpose is to worship God(swt).

If we are too blind to see the miracles to be found in a single drop of water, we can not fully see or appreciate the glory of the mightiest wave.


There is no lack of miracles. We just need to remember we are not the ones in control of miracles.

 

[barney]

Woody:

Absolutley agree with you. God isnt going to be some sort of circus magician, his will would be paramount. If he chose to heal a virus then he would do it. If he chose to grow back a hand, he would do it.

My standpoint is that, although he heals viruses as seen by many christian prayer circles and Muslim groups offering dua every day, he dosnt do the physically impossible stuff.

So is he capable of doing it? Of course.
Is he merciful? So it is said.
Is he just? So it is said.
Does he do it? Nope.

Is it a statistical flaw? Perhaps all the prayers for healing of limbs and other stuff might suddenly kick in tommorow.
Mayby those prayed for diddnt have enough prayers or hard enough prayers or sincere enough?

Glo. it's not my position that God is some vending machine for our earthly wants. you say we cant expect God to come up with the Goods everytime we pray. Well no.
What about 5% of the time? 1%? 0.03%?
Or Zero Percent?

Lets take some people with breast cancer. The recovery rate in the UK is 87%
Lets say that the 87% of christians that are prayed for and recover accept gods hand in this recovery.
The 87% of atheists who recover thank the Surgons and medical science for their hand in it, and their bodies defences.

The recovery rate is the same and studies have proved this.

Lets take a Finger amputee.
0% of finger amputees will regrow that finger, so god's intervention drops from 87% to 0%. A billion prayers would not change that.

Now a Doctor might be able to sew the finger back on if they are quick enough, it's weaker and has less grip, but its 60% or something of the time sewed on successfuly. Human intervention has worked, the prayer diddnt.

The root of this question is CAN HE HEAR US.
We were told How to pray and when and where, but we dont seem to be getting it right for healing of things that would not heal themselves anyway.

There is no lack of miracles if we call natural phenomenon miracles. By this i mean gods intervention directly in a case.

 

[Woodrow]

Woody:

Absolutley agree with you. God isnt going to be some sort of circus magician, his will would be paramount. If he chose to heal a virus then he would do it. If he chose to grow back a hand, he would do it.

True

My standpoint is that, although he heals viruses as seen by many christian prayer circles and Muslim groups offering dua every day, he dosnt do the physically impossible stuff.

Perhaps sometimes we have to experience things first hand. Sadly we are very hard headed creatures. In my younger days I have been pronounced dead at least twice. I had my body shattered apparently beyond repair. Back then I attributed my recovery to the skills of an excellent orthopedic surgeon. I will not belittle his skills, but now that I am older I do wonder why some of his patients with much less severe injuries than I had did not survive. Was I lucky? Did he have a good day or could it be as I now believe, I was spared for some purpose that I do not understand.

So is he capable of doing it? Of course.
Is he merciful? So it is said.
Is he just? So it is said.
Does he do it? Nope.

I believe he often does it, but not in the manner we always expect. I have met more than one person with severe spinal cord injuries who intialy prayed for recovery and later said that because of their injuries they had gained more than they lost and that they would gladly give up their arms and legs again, to find what they have found. Perhaps that inner growth is the miracle and it surpasses any physical restoration.

Is it a statistical flaw? Perhaps all the prayers for healing of limbs and other stuff might suddenly kick in tommorow.
Mayby those prayed for diddnt have enough prayers or hard enough prayers or sincere enough?

all of the above and none of the above. I am certain at times any of those do apply. I am also certain that the true miracles that seem to be happening today are inner miracles and not readily seen by all eyes. Perhaps this is because doctors are now being given the guidence to learn to repair physical damage and that is part of the miracle and deeper miracles are needed, to be less confused with human abilities.

Lets take some people with breast cancer. The recovery rate in the UK is 87%
Lets say that the 87% of christians that are prayed for and recover accept gods hand in this recovery.
The 87% of atheists who recover thank the Surgons and medical science for their hand in it, and their bodies defences.

I do not know why God(swt) permits some to heal and some not to. Perhaps in those case it would be more interesting if we could figure out why the ones who are not healed were not healed. Certainly, the medical procedures would have been nearly identical. Why did they not survive? The miracle may turn out to be in the fact that some did not survive.

The recovery rate is the same and studies have proved this.

Or perhaps God(swt) does not chose by the same standards we do?

Lets take a Finger amputee.
0% of finger amputees will regrow that finger, so god's intervention drops from 87% to 0%. A billion prayers would not change that.

Possibly God(swt) has given us the knowledge for self healing and we are just slow in learning how to apply it.

Now a Doctor might be able to sew the finger back on if they are quick enough, it's weaker and has less grip, but its 60% or something of the time sewed on successfuly. Human intervention has worked, the prayer diddnt.

How did the human gain the skills for human intervention?

The root of this question is CAN HE HEAR US.
We were told How to pray and when and where, but we dont seem to be getting it right for healing of things that would not heal themselves anyway.

Or we fail to see it even when it happens.

There is no lack of miracles if we call natural phenomenon miracles. By this i mean gods intervention directly in a case.

True.


I suspect this is going to be a futile and very moot debate no matter how far we pursue it. Possibly we are trying to discuss something that neither of us is capable of seeing as the other sees it.

 

[barney]

I suspect this is going to be a futile and very moot debate no matter how far we pursue it. Possibly we are trying to discuss something that neither of us is capable of seeing as the other sees it.

Yup! But its interesting and also Important, because it forms the bedrock of religion.

Regards

 

[glo]

Yup! But its interesting and also Important, because it forms the bedrock of religion.

Regards

Hi barney

Just now I came across a discussion on unanswered prayer, which you may find interesting. I certainly touches on some of the things we have discussed in this thread.
It's on a Christian TV station, so I won't post the link here. I'll PM you the details and you can decide what you want to do with it.

Peace