Any Catholics here?

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I don't know which mod was on the job to so quickly take down the last post, but good job!! That was quick and well done.


And for those of you who think I might be talking facitiously, I am not. There was something that temporarily appeared between these two posts of mine that you don't even want to know about. I wish I could give you a thousand reputation points for taking care of it so no one else had to see it.
 
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Salaam/Peace

I'm probably close to getting banned from there myself right now.

haha . What about glo ? Is she joining us ? :p


I really don't have much problem with the rest of Catholic theology.

I asked there if some acts of the Catholics are supported by Bible . Ans I got was like that it is supported by the .....I forgot the name of the holy book , approved by the Catholic Church.

Looks like some or many Catholics give more importance on those books than the Bible. Do non-Catholic Christians ( and some Catholics ) think it's the wrong attitude ?
 
Catholics are quick to point out (and correctly so) that the Bible (or NT at least) that we have was written and put together by the Church. So the Church pre-dates the Bible. They therefore think that the Church has as much or more authority than the Bible itself. (I'm simplifying the details, but correctly reporting the attitude I run into on that particular forum -- it isn't the same attitude I find among real live Catholics, not even the local priest.) And I think that that attitude is ... well, let's use the word "misplaced".
 
Catholics use a different Bible to Protestants. Can Catholics tell me a bit about the extra books included in your Biblical canon, and what they say? It's very hard to find Catholic Bibles in a tradtionally Protestant country...

Also, may a Catholic answer my question on the previous page? Thanks and God Bless.
 
Catholics use a different Bible to Protestants. Can Catholics tell me a bit about the extra books included in your Biblical canon, and what they say? It's very hard to find Catholic Bibles in a tradtionally Protestant country...

Also, may a Catholic answer my question on the previous page? Thanks and God Bless.

I will just go by my memory as a former Catholic. The additional books are in the OT. Catholics will say they were not added (as they had always been in the Latin Vulgate) but rather they were removed when the KJV was written. The most obvious Protestants see are the 2 books of Maccabees.

What is strange, in the Catholic Bible, is in the NT the book of Revelations is included however, according to Catholics it is Apocalyptic and was/is not part of the actual ible.
 
I'll answer this as a former Catholic. Although it has been a long time since I was a Catholic.

Catholics do not believe the eucharist is symbolic of the body and blood of Jesus(as) they believe it is the true body and blood of him, in the form of bread and wine.

This is one of the most noticeable differences between Catholics and Protestants.

I was trying to be generous. Ok though, I stand corrected :)

Catholics DO eat their lord and savior. How this passes by converts to catholicism without their eyes bulging out I have no idea.
 
Catholics use a different Bible to Protestants. Can Catholics tell me a bit about the extra books included in your Biblical canon, and what they say? It's very hard to find Catholic Bibles in a tradtionally Protestant country...
This isn't a hard one even for a Protestant pastor to answer.

First, Catholic versions of the Bible are easily available on the internet: The Douay Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA Bible) is the KJV of Catholic Bibles, though I think The New Jerusalem Bible is more popular today, and the Catholic edition of The Good News Bible provides an easy to read paraphrase.

Second, the difference is that the Catholic Bible contains 73 books, 7 more than do protestant Bibles, and all contained in the Old Testament. These 7 books: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch are a part of what protestants know as the Apocrypha and are sometimes referred to as Deutero-Canonical books. However, for Catholics they are just simply a part of the Canon of scripture and have always been so.

Third, it isn't just Catholics who include them; with some minor variations, so does the Orthodox Church.

The reason they were originally included as part of the Catholic canon has to do with the relationship between the NT church and the OT. Though Christianity is a descendant of Judaism. Very early on, most of the new converts to Christianity were found in the Greek speaking world. They may have been religious Jews, but they were living in a Greek culture. Even the apostles, when we find them quoting passages from the Old Testament, we can see that they were quoting directly from Septuagint, the Greek text of the Old Testament, rather than translating into Greek themselves out of the Hebrew Tanakh. And so, it was this Greek edition that was the "Bible" of the NT Church. Over the course of time, the writings which would eventually be termed the New Testament also developed. And as they did the Church also utilized them, along with these writings from their Jewish roots, and lots of other things that were found to be helpful as well. None of this was in book form like we have it today. Some was on parchments, some on scrolls, some in a new invention called a codex (very similar to a modern book), but they were just collections stored together in a library. As time continued to progress it was mutually agreed that the Church needed to articulate which of these writings were to be set apart as useful as a rule for faith and practice (that is what the term canon means -- standard or rule), and they did so by simply noting that a consensus had been reached to use the present 27 books that are found in the NT and the 46 books that were part of the Greek edition of the OT that they had received from their formerly Jewish heritage. And that's the way it was, unquestioned for centuries, until the time of Luther.

By Luther's day the Bible was available mostly in Latin. Luther thought that the scriptures needed to be in the common language of his people, German. And so he began the task of translating them. As he did, he tried to get back to the original texts. Not an easy task in his with most of the oldest texts stored in the Vatican, a place he was most certainly not welcomed. But he had access to Greek texts of the NT and there were Jewish communities living in Germany from which he could get Hebrew texts of the OT. Also, as this would involve translating directly from Hebrew into German rather than translating out of something that was itself a translation, this seemed better to Luther. But an interesting had happened in the Jewish community between the time that the Church has established the canon of scripture in the 4th century and Luther's 16th century. The Jews themselves had never actually bothered to establish a canon for the Hebrew scriptures. They had the Torah, that was settled, but the rest of it, that which were called the prophets and the writings was unsettled. For centuries Jewish scholars had written reflections on the Torah and had produced a Midrash, Mishnah, and Talmud all as commentary on the Torah. And these commentaries were generally accepted on par with the other writings. But now the Jews saw how Christians were using parts of their texts to prove that Jesus was who Christians said he was, and quite plainly they didn't like it. So, when a movement finally arose within the Jewish community that they needed to be more clear as to what was scripture and what was other, they specified as the "official" Hebrew Bible only 39 books, leaving out 7 of those that had been part of the 46 books of the Greek Septuagint that had been accepted and used by the NT Church as prophetic with regard to Jesus. But of course, those 7 had been part of the history of the Catholic Church.

With the discord between the protestant reformers and the Catholic Church, Luther's list of books was picked up by other protestant groups and the rest, as they say, is history. So, you have to decide if you agree more with Luther, that since the Jews never actually considered those 7 books to be part of their Hebrew Bible there is no reason to include them in the Christian's Bible (the protestant position), or that you agree that since the NT Church accepted and used them as a part of their scriptures that they should continue to be used by the church of today as well (the Catholic position).
 
Catholics DO eat their lord and savior. How this passes by converts to catholicism without their eyes bulging out I have no idea.
Me neither. But I do know that for many this concept of his REAL PRESENCE (emphasis theirs) is one of the more attractive aspects of Catholicism.
 
Thank you, Grace Seeker. I'm reading through Judith and the times of King Nebuchadnezzar now. It's completely alien to me, I have genuinely never read the Catholic scriptures before.

I asked this on the previous page Grace Seeker, but have you ever been on a pilgrimage to the Vatican and St Peter's Basilica where Paul is thought to be buried? Is it a spiritual experience? Did it make you a better Catholic?

I've always wanted to go to the beautiful church that is St Peter's, but I'd rather go as a worshipper than a visitor. Unfortunately, I've no plans to convert soon.
 
I asked this on the previous page Grace Seeker, but have you ever been on a pilgrimage to the Vatican and St Peter's Basilica where Paul is thought to be buried?
No.

Is it a spiritual experience?
I don't know. What is a spiritual experience for one often is not for another, and vice versa.

Did it make you a better Catholic?

I would first have to become Catholic for something to make me a "better Catholic", and I certainly don't see that happening any time in the forseeable future.
 
No.


I don't know. What is a spiritual experience for one often is not for another, and vice versa.



I would first have to become Catholic for something to make me a "better Catholic", and I certainly don't see that happening any time in the forseeable future.

...you're not Catholic? My mistake!
 
Me neither. But I do know that for many this concept of his REAL PRESENCE (emphasis theirs) is one of the more attractive aspects of Catholicism.

When I was Catholic I found it to be one of the most inspiring things about Catholicism. i did not view it as a form of cannibalism but as the genuine acceptance of what it meant to have God in you. It was a physical acceptance of being with God.


But that was when I was Catholic and it was not the reason I turned away from Catholicism.

For my Muslim Bothers and Sister I did not put swt after God(swt) in the above because I do not believe that would have have been appropriate as I do not believe God(swt) sent down the message to do that.
 
When I was Catholic I found it to be one of the most inspiring things about Catholicism. i did not view it as a form of cannibalism but as the genuine acceptance of what it meant to have God in you. It was a physical acceptance of being with God.


But that was when I was Catholic and it was not the reason I turned away from Catholicism.
Woodrow, as a Muslim, do you no longer have sense of 'God's presence within you' or of 'being with God'?
If no, why not?
If yes, how does it feel different now?
 
Woodrow, as a Muslim, do you no longer have sense of 'God's presence within you' or of 'being with God'?
If no, why not?
If yes, how does it feel different now?

Actually I feel closer to God(swt) as a Muslim then I ever did as a Christian. The difference now is I see that I am now believing as I am supposed to not based upon what I was taught to believe. I have more of a sense of personal responsibility in my worship.
 
Actually I feel closer to God(swt) as a Muslim then I ever did as a Christian. The difference now is I see that I am now believing as I am supposed to not based upon what I was taught to believe. I have more of a sense of personal responsibility in my worship.
Thank you for your clarification, Woodrow.

Somehow I read your last post to mean that your problem with Catholicism was the very sense of 'being with God'.
From posts of yours I have read previously I couldn't imagine that you would have a problem with the concept of being close to God ...
I realise now that I misunderstood.
(Edit: Just re-read this sentence of your's, which clarifies further: "But that was when I was Catholic and it was not the reason I turned away from Catholicism.")

To take this a little further, how would you feel about the concept of 'being one with God' or 'God dwelling within you'.
Are those still compatible with your thinking as a Muslim?
 
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Thank you for your clarification, Woodrow.

Somehow I read your last post to mean that your problem with Catholicism was the very sense of 'being with God'.
From posts of yours I have read previously I couldn't imagine that you would have a problem with the concept of being close to God ...
I realise now that I misunderstood.
(Edit: Just re-read this sentence of your's, which clarifies further: "But that was when I was Catholic and it was not the reason I turned away from Catholicism.")

To take this a little further, how would you feel about the concept of 'being one with God' or 'God dwelling within you'.
Are those still compatible with your thinking as a Muslim?

Both concepts are not compatable with Islam. But that does not alter how any of us may feel.

this may sound paradoxical, but I "feel" both of those as being as my "feeling" while knowing both are physical impossibilities.
 
Both concepts are not compatable with Islam. But that does not alter how any of us may feel.

this may sound paradoxical, but I "feel" both of those as being as my "feeling" while knowing both are physical impossibilities.
It's interesting you say that.
I watched a history programme about Christianity, and I was interested to hear how Christians have grappled with the concept of God over the centuries, how much they have argued and disagreed ...

We often have similar debates here in this forum - and, of course, including the views of Muslims and Christians we add to the amount of different views and concepts.

I sometimes wonder though, whether most of these debates are simply about the language and terminology we use and the theological concepts within we interpret our experiences.

When I listen to how many of us (Muslims or non-Muslims) experience God, feel his presence, relate to him etc, the experiences seem to be very similar.

God is in communion with us.
He works within us.
We can experience his presence.
We can connect with him.


I believe that Seeking a relationship with God is at the centre of our faiths.
I wonder just how important our theological differences, debates and disagreements are ...
 
I believe that Seeking a relationship with God is at the centre of our faiths.
I wonder just how important our theological differences, debates and disagreements are ...

Quite profound. Perhaps something we all need to think about.
 

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