Anyone ever witnessed healing through prayer?

[ranma1/2]

:salamext:


I did..........and i do believe in that.

btw anyone remember, we have a sister here at Li who was suffering from brain tumor......and the doc told her that she would die in few weeks.......And we all prayed for her.....and then Alhumdulillah.......her other post came up that her tumor size had reduced ............

:wasalamex

And of course she didnt use medicine or tried to get it reduced. Of course it is known that sometimes they will reduce themselves and somethings are yet unknown how. Of course it could have been a misdiagnoses as well.

Im going with the first one myself.

 

[Abu yahya]

Okay this is getting realy long winded, let's concentrate on one thing at a time.

Why do you think you can influence god?

God has decreed everything that's gonna happen until the day of judgement before He created creation. Then why pray? Because prayer can change the decree. But wait, I though I just said that everything has been decreed until the day of judgement, so how can prayer change that? Because it's aready been decreed that so and so will pray and the prayer will change the decree from what it would've originally been.

But wait, then this means that everything has bee decreed, so why bother doin anything at all? Because we as muslims believe that this life is a mixture of the decree and free will. Our actions are not completely as a result of the decree, neither competely as a result of our own free will, rather they're a result of both. But what does that mean?

It means that we have free will to do whatever we want to do, but God knows what we're going to do, and He's written that in a book before he created creation, so he knows everything that's gonna happen, and therefore it's as though He's decreed it (if that's the correct term to apply to this ).

When someone prays out of their own free will, the decree changes from what it woud've originally been without the prayer, but it was already known to God that you would pray and it was all already decreed, we never changed God's mind from what He'd decreed for us (at the moment of prayer), we only changed what would've originally been decreed, but does that mean we influenced God? No, because God knows whether you're gonna pray or not and then based upon that He's already decided before he created us whether or not He's going to answer that prayer by decreeing something else, or leave things the same. Therefore we never changed His mind with the prayer, because even though He knew we were gonna pray, it was still up to Him to change the decree accordingly or not, remember, up to Him not us.

Let's start with this issue, seeing as you requested me to respond to this twice in your last post. Sorry if I've been unclear above, it's hard to explain in writing.

Peace

 

[Abu yahya]

Sorry, I just read my post again and found that one of the paragraphs is not very clear. When I say we can't influence God what I mean is that when we pray, He makes the decision as to whether or not to change the decree accordingly (before He created creation), ie we don't have any participation in deciding what to decree, God does.

But if you mean by "influencing God", whether or not prayer influences God, then yes, we believe that prayer can change the decree, but it was all decided before creation was created. So if this is your meaning then yes, we can influence God in the Decree, but as I said above only He decides whether or not to change the decree as a result of prayer, not us.

Sorry for the confusion. Peace

 

[ranma1/2]

Sorry, I just read my post again and found that one of the paragraphs is not very clear. When I say we can't influence God what I mean is that when we pray, He makes the decision as to whether or not to change the decree accordingly (before He created creation), ie we don't have any participation in deciding what to decree, God does.

But if you mean by "influencing God", whether or not prayer influences God, then yes, we believe that prayer can change the decree, but it was all decided before creation was created. So if this is your meaning then yes, we can influence God in the Decree, but as I said above only He decides whether or not to change the decree as a result of prayer, not us.

Sorry for the confusion. Peace

SO god knows all and you are going against his plan by making him change it?

Or god knows all and wants you to beg?

Or god knows all and only answers petty wishes and refuses to help the hungry, the poor, war etc.. but he will happily help someone that has cancer well maybe not glady only by chance and only along the same chance of it happening naturally?

 

[Abu yahya]

SO god knows all and you are going against his plan by making him change it?

My brother, you have completely misunderstood what I said. I'll try and break it down:

Let's say there's a person (X). He gets cancer. Either it can be decreed that he recovers or he doesn't right. Let's say if he wasn't going to pray, it would've been decreed that he dies from it, and if he did choose to pray he was going to recover from it. The person has free will to do what he chooses. But God knows what he will choose, and therefore before He even created anything He'd already decided what to decree for him based upon what the individual was going to do (pray or not pray).

So we're not going against His plan, rather the prayer is encompassed within His plan. If you mean by "change it" that God changed what would've originally BEEN decreed, then yes, in such a sense you could say we have changed something, but not God's plan, because God's plan is what is actually decreed and that takes account of prayer. And in reality to call it a "change" is incorrect, because that would imply that the plan went from one thing to another, which it didn't, the plan was the same all the way through, it's just that it WOULD have been different(not WAS different) if the person didn't pray.

Or god knows all and wants you to beg?

Yes, we believe that God responds to those who pray to Him/ beg to Him, that's the whole point of prayer. We believe that God responds to those who pray, because they have humbled themselves to Him, and He doesn't respond to those who don't pray due to their arrogance by saying that they don't need Him or woteva. Would you respond to such a person? You give someone life, sustenance everything, and then they turn around and say I don't need you anymore, get lost, would you help such a person? And the proof from the Qur'aan for this is:

"And your Lord has said supplicate to me, I will respond to you. Indeed those who are ARROGANT of my worship will enter Hell in HUMILIATION."

(i.e. those who don't pray due to arrogance-most atheists say we shouldn't beg/pray to God even if He exists, out of their arrogance. P.s. I'm NOT saying you're one of them)

Or god knows all and only answers petty wishes and refuses to help the hungry, the poor, war etc.. but he will happily help someone that has cancer well maybe not glady only by chance and only along the same chance of it happening naturally?

There is a hadeeth (narration from the Prophet Muhammad (saw)) which states that all of mankind was seen from the first of them to the last of them (some were blind, some were deaf etc) and somebody asked God "Why did you not make them all the same?" And God responded "I like to be shown Gratitude". Meaning that the reason why bad things happen to us, is to see whether or not we thank God for the good things, it's part of our test.

Secondly, we believe that on the day of judgement everybody will get what they deserve,as God said in the Qur'aan "There is no oppression on this day", meaning everyone will get what they deserve. So if somebody is poor, that will be taken into account, and the person will not be expected to have done as much as others. And If they were poor and Islaam never came to them, then even less is expected. And what matters is the day of judgement, this life is only short. There's loads of issues connected with this, why is there so much suffering in the world, but I think we're diagressing from the main topic of prayer, we could discuss this in another thread later if you want.

Regarding the second part, that He'll help people not gladly but according to the laws of natural probability, I find it amazing that you say such a thing because there's so many incidents where people are cured despite the chances being extremely low, the laws of probability are actually against them in such an instance. How would you explain that? Are you just going to reject that it takes place, even though there's so many reports?

PS what's your position on fate/free will?

Peace

 

[poga]

Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : I angered him so much with my spiteful swear
He was fuming in madness like a man on fire
His pulsation went high while his energy was low
For his live heart my swear word was the deadly blow

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : I calmed her so much with my peaceful prayer
My comforting words removed her dreadful fear
She came to her senses and told me a tale what defies all logic
She spoke of KAFFIRS who Say's the miraculous healing of Jesus was his articulous trick

if i can infect pain and suffering just by swearing bad words
can i not also heal just by good kindly words and what is best word apart from name of ALLAH
there are such thing as sonar theraphy counselling and music theraphy
the best among them is the last confession from creature to the creator

 

[ranma1/2]

Let's say there's a person (X). He gets cancer. Either it can be decreed that he recovers or he doesn't right. Let's say if he wasn't going to pray, it would've been decreed that he dies from it, and if he did choose to pray he was going to recover from it. The person has free will to do what he chooses. But God knows what he will choose, and therefore before He even created anything He'd already decided what to decree for him based upon what the individual was going to do (pray or not pray).

Except when person a through person 999zzzzzzzx prays and still die and person 178abbbbb3ss lives then it worked? And when person 1777berrrrr doesnt pray and lives and recovers miracously what is it then?

So we're not going against His plan, rather the prayer is encompassed within His plan. If you mean by "change it" that God changed what would've originally BEEN decreed, then yes, in such a sense you could say we have changed something, but not God's plan, because God's plan is what is actually decreed and that takes account of prayer. And in reality to call it a "change" is incorrect, because that would imply that the plan went from one thing to another, which it didn't, the plan was the same all the way through, it's just that it WOULD have been different(not WAS different) if the person didn't pray.

Yes, we believe that God responds to those who pray to Him/ beg to Him, that's the whole point of prayer. We believe that God responds to those who pray, because they have humbled themselves to Him, and He doesn't respond to those who don't pray due to their arrogance by saying that they don't need Him or woteva. Would you respond to such a person? You give someone life, sustenance everything, and then they turn around and say I don't need you anymore, get lost, would you help such a person? And the proof from the
...
(i.e. those who don't pray due to arrogance-most atheists say we shouldn't beg/pray to God even if He exists, out of their arrogance. P.s. I'm NOT saying you're one of them)

But what about all the other religions that get their wishes granted? Or for those that dont pray or believe in god. Not to meniton how random his granting is. The usually answer I get to part fo this is that its not gods will or they were not honest or true (fill in religion")
or sincere enough or some similar excuse.

There is a hadeeth (narration from the Prophet Muhammad (saw)) which states that all of mankind was seen from the first of them to the last of them (some were blind, some were deaf etc) and somebody asked God "Why did you not make them all the same?" And God responded "I like to be shown Gratitude". Meaning that the reason why bad things happen to us, is to see whether or not we thank God for the good things, it's part of our test.

Secondly, we believe that on the day of judgement ..., but I think we're diagressing from the main topic of prayer, we could discuss this in another thread later if you want.

I agree. And this god of yours sounds pretty petty and selfish causing harm only so he can be patted on the back.

Regarding the second part, that He'll help people not gladly but according to the laws of natural probability, I find it amazing that you say such a thing because there's so many incidents where people are cured despite the chances being extremely low, the laws of probability are actually against them in such an instance. How would you explain that? Are you just going to reject that it takes place, even though there's so many reports?

Well why does god help people of all religions then if he wants the "graditude" he is so selfish for.? "Miracles" happen for all religions. This seems to contradict your idea.
And what are these many instances of healing?
I know that people do get better naturally. I know that doctors may misdaignose. I know that patients misunderstand diagnoses. I also know that we dont have a perfect understanding of disease and the human body. Also I know that people tend to have their own point of view of events and they often can be distorted. Also I know that people lie, they like to feel special. I do not reject that people get better, i do reject that its anything more than natural without a shred of evidence.

Now if you had someone that regrew a limb or someone came back from the dead 7 days cold or something similarly impossible you might have some credibility.

PS what's your position on fate/free will?

Peace

I guess it depends on what you mean. In general i believe in free will. I see nothing as predetermined. If however you add in an all knowing being then we lose it. Everything is predetermined and we are nothing more than robots.