Apostasy: an unqualified fatwa

[MuslimAgorist]

With the story of Rifqa Bary, a 17 year old who converted from Islam to Christianity, all over the news the subject of apostasy in Islam has taken center stage.

In the original video which aired August 10th Rifqa said to the camera and to the world, "If they love Allah more than me, they have to do it (kill her). It’s in the Quran." It is a widely accepted misconception that the Quran calls for the death penalty for apostasy. Let’s take a look.

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-17122-SF-Muslim-Examiner~y2009m9d8-Apostasy-an-unqualified-fatwa

 

[aamirsaab]

Interesting find. Would highly recommend the non-muslims (as well as muslims) to read this article.

 

[Caller الداعي]

this has been one of the tactics they use to weaken a muslims imaan since the times of the sahabah !

 

[Santoku]

In a previous thread on Sharai Law (sic) Amirsaaab pointed us to another interpretation of the apostasy laws where it was stated that people could leave Islam provided they kept it quiet and to thmselves:-
When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

Of course they can keep it to themselves unless someone asks them "Hey, why don't you go to the mosque to pray anymore?" "How come I saw you eating during Ramadan?" "Why don't you say Peace be upon him when speak Mohammeds name.?" aT this point he either has to come clean or lie and pretend to a faith he no longer has. And since in the articles leaving Islamshows treason to the Ummah (no matter how it is done then the apostate has committed the treason and can be executed.

 

[MuslimAgorist]

I don't think it's possible to hold a faith internally and not act upon it. That is the very definition of hypocrisy. The mere act of leaving a nation does not constitute treason. If I renounce my US citizenship I have not committed treason, I have merely dissolved a social contract. It requires either active aggression against one’s nation, or conspiracy with the nation’s enemies to constitute treason by any definition.

I think the fundamental problem here is that “belief” is not a choice. Sincere belief is an involuntary response to evidence. You can’t will yourself to believe, you can only will yourself to behave, also the very definition of hypocrisy.

 

[MSalman]

more evidence that unqualified awam should keep quite for things which they have no knowledge. For Allah's love this is a month of ramadhan! If I were this brother, I would be offering two rakah right now and weeping in front of Allah for distorting and raping the shariah and attributing lies to the scholars. I wonder where is people's imaan and why do not they verify before buying anything from modernist apologetic contemporary scholars!?

allhamdulillah, I am witness against this falsehood and I invite you to fear Allah and remove this article. May Allah save us from the fitnah of apologeticsm and modernism, ameen.

 

[MuslimAgorist]

Are you for real? Distorting and raping the shariah?

Which modernist scholar? The only scholar named in the article is Ibn Taymiyya, who was against the death penalty for apostasy. If you've got qualified scholars on both sides of the issue, than it's acceptable to follow either opinion... if it's acceptable to follow either opinion... can't we assume that the apostate is taking Ibn Taymiyyas opinion? You'd really rather dig in your heals and demand the death penalty when there's doubt in the matter? The death of an innocent is very serious!

 

[MSalman]

^brother, by Allah know that silent is better for you and the author and know that it is heresy to go against an ijmaa. The day when these modernists and apologetics can show us the actual statements of these scholars and not attributing lies to them, then they have a leg to stand on until then it is pure nonsense just to please the west that Islam is good.

No difference existed regarding the issue of apostasy (apostates put to death or not) until the modernists emerged and you need to stop buying this nonsense from these people!

Why do you not ask this brother to quote me the supposed statement of Shaykh ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullah) with full context and reference? Shaykh ul-Islam is last person to whom you wanna attibute this lie. And even if we assume he did say that then he will be rewarded for his ijtihad for this shadd opinion which goes against the ijmaa of the Salaf. And no one is supposed to follow the shadd opinions because if we were to do that then you will be left with no religion

The article is full of lies and you expect a decent response in return!?

Funny thing is that these modernists/apologetic brothers will be the first one to throw out the opinions of the scholars when it does not please them or does not serve their super agenda of making Islam look good to west; however, when it serves their agenda they run to them. Why are you going against the hadith and accepting scholars' opinions when you people are the first ones to cry when, to you, some scholarly understanding is contradictory to Qur'an/hadith!? And you say: "it is only a scholar's opinion and he is not a Qur'an or hadith". What a load of nonsense!

 

[MuslimAgorist]

“The worst of creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use their intellect to understand.” (8:22)

With all respect, in any consistent creed you can't have opposite moral rules for different people. If it is better for me to be silent… is it not better for you also to be silent? If it is “heresy to go against an ijmaa” would you personally advocate the death penalty for me? Would you hold the sword? If it is incumbent upon this author to show you the actual statements of these scholars… is it not incumbent upon you to show him the actual statements of these scholars?

You say that the article is full of lies and undeserving of a reasonable response. Is it possible you don't have reasonable response? Is that anxiety for you so severe you'd like my head? You are parroting, not reasoning.

 

[aamirsaab]

....
Funny thing is that these modernists/apologetic brothers will be the first one to throw out the opinions of the scholars when it does not please them or does not serve their super agenda of making Islam look good to west; however, when it serves their agenda they run to them. Why are you going against the hadith and accepting scholars' opinions when you people are the first ones to cry when, to you, some scholarly understanding is contradictory to Qur'an/hadith!? And you say: "it is only a scholar's opinion and he is not a Qur'an or hadith". What a load of nonsense!

You keep saying this is some sort of modernist approach to apostacy and words to the affect of appeasing western audience, but I must ask you if the apostacy ruling is as you said it is (i.e solely if they reject Islam), how is one to be convicted of it?

The only real way a conviction of apostate can come to fruition is if that actual person actually admits it and shows it in their actions (by I don't know eating pork?!) - unless you want to get into witness testimony etc (in either case, the Judge HAS to be convinced, which is the over-riding factor!).

There at the very least has to be some actual evidence for it to get to court so a punishment (if any) can be administered. So unless the apostate in question is making a song and dance about it, practically speaking, the punishment cannot occur since there is no evidence.

Now if one starts attacking a mosque or muslims (or something of similar nature. In other words, commiting treason/rebelling against the state) then quite clearly there exists some real hardcore evidence to convict them on.

This is what I meant earlier on in the other thread when I was talking about apostacy and treason. It comes down to practicalities of the matter.

 

[MSalman]

@MuslimAgorist

jazak Allah khayr for attempting to compare me to worst creatures in the sight of Allah. You are spreading and defending munkar when you do not know what the scholars actually have said and simply buying this super agenda. Therefore, it was an advice to you. As far your comment about me remaining silent, I could have if I wanted to but:

The Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: “Whoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action against it], and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out against it], and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong], and this is the weakest of faith” (Reported by Muslim, no. 70).​

Secondly, please find out the meaning of heresy and how it means differently depending on the context. Here it meant going against an established traditionalist understanding. And I do not know what you are trying to pull when you say "advocate death penalty for me". And it was quite astonishing that you are trying to post an ayah against me when you are acting arrogantly against the law of Allah.

If I show you the actual statements will you then reject this opinion? Will the author then reject this opinion? If you were truly sincere about seeking haqq then you would not be saying what you are saying.

Secondly, the burden of proof is upon your shoulder and not mine as you are making the claim. This brother went as far as weakening a hadith in sahih bukhari something which no one did in 14 centuries of Islam. Are you for real!? I remember a knowledgeable brother telling me that one of the Salaf said if you see anyone speaking ill of Ikrima (rahimahullah) then doubt his religion. And all the scholars who did not like him narrated from him despite their criticism against him. Do you know why: because 1) as ibn Hajr (rahimahullah) said that once a person's imamt is established the jarh wa tadeel has not affect on him and all the scholars agree upon Ikrima (rahimahullah) being an Imam and 2) the scholars who criticized him said that if you do not narrate from him then two thirds of the religion will be lost. If their criticism really meant imply that we throw his statements out of window, then I wonder why they narrated from him and why Imam al-Bukhari narrated number of narrations from him in his sahih.

Insha'Allah, wait for the end of month of ramadhan and really it is about time someone expose this false nonsense which is spread all over the internet and attributed to Islam.

@aamir

a person does not have to go destroying mosque to show that he is an apostate. And neither he has to announce to the world "hello, I am an apostate now". As long as his apostasy become apparent or publicized (if you like) then he is asked to repent and if he does not repent then he is put to death...PERIOD. It is not a condition that he cannot be put to death until he rebels by destroying mosques or inciting wars or spreading fitnah - this is a extrem case of apostasy which ibn Taymiyyah (rahimhullah) touched upon, the major apostasy. What he actually said regarding this is that the person is not given the time to repent if he is convicted of extreme/major apostasy and he said this is the view of some of the scholars. And he did not say that a person of minor apostasy is not put to death as falsely attributed to him in the article. He (rahimahullah) said that apostates convicted of both types of apostasy are put to death but the apostate belonging to major apostasy is not given the time to repent.

and Allah knows best

 

[MSalman]

How do we know someone has apostatized?

Answers from a knowledgeable brother and I won't say anymore on this until the end of this blessing month:

The one who admits he practises magic, or believes that the world is eternal, or says that 'I am God and God is me', or prays to other than God, is guilty of apostasy. He doesn't have to appear on a radio show to officially announce his apostasy to the nation.

The one who does not ever commit an act of kufr, or even utter a word of kufr is not an apostate to begin with

Yes, the wisdom behind the legislation of capital punishment for apostasy may be in order to prevent mass-scale fasad in the land, this is certainly NOT the 'illa for which an apostate is punished.

Punishment of apostasy is for all apostates, whether they proclaim to be apostates or not by consensus of the scholars.

And yes, the punishment of apostasy is very much like the punishment for zina, in the sense that if a person does not air his kufr views, or display his kufr actions to anyone, then no one could ever know that he is guilty of kufr, and hence, the question of punishment becomes completely irrelevant.

But if a person confesses to a judge that he committed zina, or that he now believes in praying to Muhammad - SallAllahu 'alaihi wa-sallam, he cannot circumvent the punishment, and neither can the judge, since it is not up to his discretion.

Yes, a judge may ask a Zani: 'perhaps, you just touched or kissed' in order to avert the punishment, just as the judge may ask the one accused of Shirk: 'perhaps, you meant something else...', in order to clarify what exactly the person is saying - if there is any doubt, simply because doubts prevent the hudud from being applied.

and Allah knows best

 

[جوري]

You don't have an understanding of Islamic law.. Nothing is clear black and white, unless you are in your teens, in which case of course you know and understand everything.

a woman in texas named andrea yates killed her five children and didn't go to prison or get the death penalty.. does that mean that every person who kills five kids will end up in a psych ward instead of death row? If you derive satisfaction out of overly simplistic conclusion then sure why not.. it is a clear black and white issue..
However to those of us living in the real world, there is a system that is approached with logic and systematic manner by folks learned in the field..

Are you a Muslim scholar? do you understand Islamic jurisprudence? that question is directed to all by the way not just the ever erudite atheists and 'others'.. if the answer is no, then I suggest that you not part with your wisdom and should the matter touch you personally seek help the same way you would if you woke up in the morning your bed drenched in sweat, lost ten pds and found a new lump in your neck!


all the best

 

[cat eyes]

would have liked to have seen the actual video but it was not working i just read some of it instead. being 17years old i doubt this girl read all the bible's and went to church to talk with a priest and just decided she wanted to be christcian. she did it as a cry for attention thats what i believe. she was not obviously getting the love from her parents so she began to resent islam.. for whatever reason mabe they were being way to harsh and angry and cruel and showing little affection! being to much islamic extremists.i don't blame the girl nor do i believe that she deserves to be murdered.. she is a child as far as i am concerned and religion is not her problem. its something deeper!

 

[MSalman]

"No compulsion in Islam", stay or die seems to be pretty compulsory to me.

do not expose your ignorance - your fraud has been exposed time after time so do not flatter yourself. The ayah is talking about not forcing people to accept Islam and it is not talking about enforcing judicial system on people. The apostasy is under the latter category and not the former. I already explained you this before but it seems you love to make a mess of yourself time after time.

Greetings,

You might think that after 1400 years something as important as when to apply the death penalty would be clear. Instead, arguments like the one we're seeing here in the thread happen pretty much every time the question is asked.

Peace

gibson, please bring something new. The ruling is clear from 1400 years but it is different situation if you keep pretending and shouting that it is not and refused to accept the reality. And there is no cure for such a sickness. Like the somalis say: "you cannot awake a man who is pretending to sleep".

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

gibson, please bring something new.

I think that's the first time I've mentioned that point on the forum. Is there something else you'd prefer me to say?

The ruling is clear from 1400 years but it is different situation if you keep pretending and shouting that it is not and refused to accept the reality.

The reality is that a massive disparity in views on this issue exists within the ummah and is currently being displayed in this thread.

The situation is far from clear to Muslims, let alone outsiders.

And there is no cure for such a sickness. Like the somalis say: "you cannot awake a man who is pretending to sleep".

Right - because he's already awake.

Peace

 

[GuestFellow]

Ah I'm so confused.

 

[Sampharo]

I think we have already covered this subject and established that beyond a shadow of a doubt all proper scholars of sunnah of all four math-habs and outside agree that apostasy suffered a punishment of death by direct order of the prophet and has been documented in many many authenticated public instances to have been upheld.

We already covered all that so I suggest to lay off IslamicLife for he is speaking the actual truth, and your misconceptions and personal attempts at interpretation of Islamic text and incidents and attacking him does not qualify any changes or diverting of any Islamic rulings.

Apostasy in the heart remains there and is judged by God. Apostasy by tongue and/or public action is punishable by Shariah law and the magistrate, and after satisfying the conditions and negating any excuses, the apostate is to be put to death. That is what happened and what is still upheld by proper Islamic establishments.

Imam Ahmed, Imam Shafei, Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifa, Abdullah Al-Mubarak, Ibn Abbas, Ibn Omar, Ibn Taymeyya and all recognized scholars of that time till today have affirmed the punishment of an apostate is to be put to death as per Shariah. Direct statement from two authenticated hadith has been by the prophet "Whomever changes his religion (out of Islam) kill him" and "A believer is only killed in three: A murderer, a married adulterer, and an apostate", and moreover the Instances of application are documented. Abu Bakr Asseddeeq, Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, Othman Ibn Affan, and Ali Ibn Abi Taleb upheld them and carried them out.

They have rules of three days minimum to allow the accused apostate to repent (30 days according to Ali Ibn Abi Taleb), and the magistrate needs to check that he's not insane, underage, have been fooled or was coerced. If satsified, punishment is to be carried using the sword.

There's no question on this matter and it doesn't matter how p***ed people might get over this. The fact that governments today don't apply it and are working with nationalism and citizenship of birth and naturalization and wish to appease humanitarian groups and western governments or wish to apply human developed laws, does not alter Islamic rulings.

Additionally, saying that something is not in the Quran and that you will not accept it if it's not there, means you reject the prophet and his message and is a hideous affair on its own, and also rejects the Quran itself that says explicitly to obey the prophet and his rulings and sunnah. If you wish to be someone as such, that is your choice, it does not however change the Islamic ruling. You can enjoy of course the writings of liberalists and "thinkers" and internet geeks who keep reverting wikipedia pages and scream in boards whatever it is that they think about the apostasy laws and whatnot.

If you wish to understand more, take a look at the following links that explain why and how and such. But with all due respect self-professed laymen and amateurs should not scream what should and should not be when all the evidence of order and application is staring everyone in the face. It reduces the quality of discussion and debate here when common knowledge and indisputed fact is talked about like it's a theory by some people who are not up to reading about what actually was applied and what is truly the law. Say you don't agree with it or you don't like it (scars your faith considering that God knows what's best and what the prophet ordered is the truth), become a great Hadith scholar and see if the over dozen authenticated incidents and the authenticated statements and orders had conditions that need to be considered (good effort and favourable), but don't say it's not there (outright false claim).

Ruling on apostasy and how to apply it: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/14231/apostasy

Why is the death penalty made for apostates: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/811/apostasy

Saudi permenant commitee for Islamic Scholarly Research and Iftaa on apostasy http://www.alifta.com/Search/Result...on=1&searchkeyword=apostasy#firstKeyWordFound

Even Shia did not take this out of their doctrine: http://www.iranrights.org/english/document-232.php

Such arguments do not add anything to us since none of us will ever be required to influence or work on an apostate's case.

Finally, it's just strange to see so many people incredibly upset about the apostasy punishment of death, it's almost they don't think that going to Hell forever is a far worse thing.

Wallahu Al-MustaAAan

 

[GuestFellow]

^ Ah but in the Quran there is a verse which states there is no complusion in religion. So if a Muslim is unable to convert to a different religion...does that not contradict with that verse in the Quran? This is what czgibson was trying to state in the other topic about Apostasy.

By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it

However it does show their faith in Islam was not strong if they were influenced by external forces...to me their faith was no genuine to begin with.

 

[MSalman]

@Guestfellow



Wasn't it cleared in other thread? Pay no heed to gibson's words since he failed to notice the difference between the two.

The reality is that a massive disparity in views on this issue exists within the ummah and is currently being displayed in this thread. The situation is far from clear to Muslims, let alone outsiders.

lol, I do not know how you define massive. and I believe we already touched upon the issue of differences in understanding Islam. This issue has been crystal clear for centuries and if some people are not willing to accept it then that is whole different situation.

Right - because he's already awake.

literally yes but I am sure you get the meaning behind it: being stubborn and closing your ears and heart to what is being said and neither admitting the truth, nor submitting to it.

PS: Let us not hijack this thread with side-topics, shall we?