apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

[talibilm]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

Hi,

The Answer is already in your question '' The evidence '' Any person with true reasoning and non prejudiced feels believing One God that the Glorious Quran lays down is incomparable to any other religions even if they stressed monotheism.

So leaving something ''clear cut'' as Islam is really is a blunt injustice to the Creator God. Though Islam is not forced on any one but Once who accepts Islam '' SINCERELY'' will never leave Islam.

those days Jews and even now accept islam just to discredit by leaving it soon , so apostasy law in Islam is just a deterrant to such mischief makers.

 

[air]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

Is freedom really the right thing? What is freedom anyway?
Are you completely free right now and able to do anything? Can you prove it?

Sorry to disappoint you, there is no such thing as completely free. We live as social beings, when we do something, it will affect others. Don't you think we need guidance that can make our actions favored by our Creator and can give benefits to other beings?

I choose Islam as my guidance, the true guidance of our Creator. And of course there are rules that I should obey, and I "feel" I should obey it, right?

I don't understand why you are bothered by punishment? Punishment is required to make sure that we are stay in the right path right?

 

[Al Sultan]

How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

No and no, I had misconceptions, doubts, and confusions, but I didn't lose my faith, why? because I asked people who know more than me, and I would always search for answers, so if one has doubts about Islam, he should seek knowledge and ask about it, and I have never seen anyone threatened for doubting Islam, even if someone did, a brother would explain to him/her and clear up his/her doubts.

 

[fschmidt]

In fact, this is one of the reasons I have thought about this. Since I live in the west, I'm acutely aware that having sufficiently non-politically-correct beliefs can get a person into considerable trouble. And that bothers me greatly, as I'm not really free at all to openly disagree with certain beliefs and values. So, I wonder if the lack of freedom to be truly open-minded bothers Muslims, too.

Freedom is rarely the concern of the majority. It is generally the concern of an enlightened minority. And I would include Muhammad in that enlightened minority.

It sounds like you will soon get in trouble as an atheist heretic. I know because I was in that situation. I was an atheist most of my life, but when I discovered that atheists are incredibly intolerant people, I solved the problem by redefining God as the forces of nature and now I can say with confidence that I am a theist and I can comfortably attend mosque. Problem solved, and no more having to deal with those hostile atheists.

 

[Scimitar]

Freedom is rarely the concern of the majority. It is generally the concern of an enlightened minority. And I would include Muhammad in that enlightened minority.

It sounds like you will soon get in trouble as an atheist heretic. I know because I was in that situation. I was an atheist most of my life, but when I discovered that atheists are incredibly intolerant people, I solved the problem by redefining God as the forces of nature and now I can say with confidence that I am a theist and I can comfortably attend mosque. Problem solved, and no more having to deal with those hostile atheists.

Could you not take your belief a step further and play with the idea that God created the forces of nature, laws of physics and other random musings like quantum mechanics and fractal realities?

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Hi, first off, welcome to the board, even if you're a member here since 2008, as I personally hadn't at least seen your posts previously or had the privilege to e-meet you, hatsoff. :statisfie

So, I'd like to explain and contextualize the matter for your better edification. On the contrary, in Islam, open-mindedness is a virtue dependent on intent and may be regarded as a means to attaining higher understanding of the religion. For example, it is well-known that in Chapter 2 of the Qur'an, Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) asks Allah (God) how can he resurrect human beings. In fact,Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) said, “My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead.” Allah then questions him as to whether he is asking because he doesn't believe, and Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) said that he does but he wanted to learn to be stronger in his faith. That is, he was asking God to provide him with certainty, which Allah then did when he asked him to slaughter birds and scatter them to the ends or corners of the land and then call the birds to him, which he did. The birds then miraculously returned alive to him, which enabled him to acquire certainty in the resurrection of human beings on the to-yet-happen Judgment Day.

For example, let's imagine a male says to a woman in a conversation to a woman about feminism, "So, you're a feminist because you're butt-ugly and can't get a man, right?" Do you really think this man wants to learn about feminism or has any insight he's willing to glean from why the woman might have turned into a feminist? Probably not. He's already formed his opinion, and he is just using the question as a way to denigrate the woman. So, even if he is asking a question, he's probably not open-minded and likely not change his mind even if he is provided the answers to his questions. This is then not open-mindedness.

Even in older Islamic theocratic societies wherein the law laid out that apostasy was punishable by death, the reality in practice was that lay societies did not police themselves looking for apostates because that would be rather asinine and would have in an ironical move only distanced psychologically people from the religion. Rather, only when a person publicly announced his apostasy in a manner that led the rulership of the nation or state to see him as a threat with the allegiance of the person in question and the welfare of the state hanging in balance did authorities take any action. Now, the reason you or many others, have trouble understanding this concept perhaps is because in contemporary world we don't conceive of or have a modern-day equivalent of Benedict Arnold, traitor to the Revolutionary War, who would switch sides and raise the stakes in the possibility of defeat of the nation. But in Islamic theocratic societies wherein the world's geopolitical scene was unstable and the survival of a people dependent on either dominating or being dominated, that would have been catastrophic for any nation. So, an apostate in theocratic societies was of course then considered a traitor to the nation, because the religion was the state and the state was the religion and each was mutually inclusive of one another.

In today's world, apostates are often shunned from their families, but they are rarely if ever killed. And the only threats I have heard being made of against apostates are the ones that are the most vocal of the people as Islamophobes and seeking to truly undermine the peace and security which they seem to want for themselves but are actively trying to undercut for the Muslim populace wholesale in the West. Personally, I don't believe in shunning, threatening, or ill-treating an apostate, just as I wouldn't any other human being either (no matter how odious). But I don't control Internet trolls that take some sick pride in so doing or deranged or sociopathic persons like ISIS-inspired individuals who want to exert their power or assert their superiority or dominance over another human being.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

Are you sure you want to follow where the evidence leads? Because if that is true, I would suggest you go to your local mosque; believe it or not, we're normal people living our normal lives. We're not thinking about how I'm not allowed to follow where the evidence leads, because we do like to follow where evidence leads. For example, I used to be an atheist, and I'm a Muslim today because I'm 100% convinced of Islam. I don't particularly care if others are not so convinced, because I don't do or care or live my life dictated by what other people are doing or want to do. If everybody was jumping off a cliff, you can be 100% sure I wouldn't do it because others were doing it unless I myself wanted to do it! I'm an ENFP on the Myers-Briggs personality test spectrum, and I was tickled pink with how accurate a read it was on my personality. When I was in the early stages of my Islam, at a particularly difficult time of life, I did want to leave Islam not because I was not convinced of the religion but because I was sick and tired of the new troubles assaulting my life, with which I didn't have to deal with when I was an atheist but now did as a Muslim. But at no point did even the thought that I could be threatened with death honestly ever cross my mind because that is such baloney; at least in the West, most people (including Muslim communities) couldn't care less what you do or believe as long as you're not harming anybody. That said, I don't doubt that there are some Muslims from fundamentalist families who might be threatened with death for pursuing doubt, but I honestly believe that is rare from my interactions with the Muslim community and not as the media would like to depict an "issue." Even if you read atheist boards (which I have done), you'll see that different people from faiths other than Islam being afraid to come out of the closet as an atheist because they're afraid of their family or friends' reactions. So, I'm also sorry to say that people are generally shunned for leaving religion; while I don't think that is particularly helpful or nice to the person who has left the religion, I don't think it is either fruitful or accurate to characterize such happenings as a "Muslim" issue or one specific to Islam. It is not.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

Personally, I don't think there is a lack of freedom; you might think I am obfuscating and that's your right 100%. But from my end where I'm standing, I honestly am 100% telling you the 100% truth. And I don't think I'm going to be threatened with punishment should I leave Islam, because frankly if I ever did leave the faith (nauzbillah - God forbid), I rather doubt I would spew BS about Islam or against Muslims because I have had a rather largely positive experience. For example, when I left atheism, I didn't spew BS against atheists either. Atheists are not perfect, yeah? Well, guess what? Muslims are not perfect either. In all my time as a Muslim, I have never had a problem with Islam, but I have encountered problematic thinking in some Muslims whether on the Internet or real life. I don't see these specific Muslims, however, as a representation of Islam, as the Muslim community is quite diverse, and I take individuals as individuals. Some I'll like, and some I'll never like. My attitude is that of a shrug-and-whatever on individuals I don't happen to like; I figure if a Muslim or a non-Muslim is a hateful moron, he/she is welcome to be one, and I am still going to live my life with full positivity and in pursuit of goodness for humanity and as a person striving to be the best version of myself InshaAllah (God-willing) which is what I have always believed Islam asks of each human being to do.

Thanks for your questions. Take care.

And peace. :statisfie

 

[AntiScimitar]

Wow, you really have that, "Checkmate Atheist" feel to you.

Right off the bat, you assuming that atheists are "lost" is very naive. It is naive of you to assume that someone bases their morals entirely off of the scientific method, because that's not how the world works. Science is understanding of the natural world. It's not, "understanding why I should have enough human decency not to kill someone."
The fact of the matter is that, morality is a social construct, and that humans have been socially selected to value certain trains and behaviors. For instance, murder is considered "bad" wherever you go. Could you argue that religion set the first standards of morality, sure. I would argue that society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religionever did.

If you can't look past your outdated book for teachings on morality, then you're probably the lost one here, because if you can't imagine morals without your book, what would you be doing right now without it?

One other thing. The only reason why it's not science's job to ask, "WHY" is because science, unlike religion, doesn't think that the universe literally revolves around them, and was made specifically for you. It's honestly really conceited.

 

[yes.i.am.muslim]

Wallahee akhee it breaks my heart

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Wow, you really have that, "Checkmate Atheist" feel to you.

Right off the bat, you assuming that atheists are "lost" is very naive. It is naive of you to assume that someone bases their morals entirely off of the scientific method, because that's not how the world works. Science is understanding of the natural world. It's not, "understanding why I should have enough human decency not to kill someone."
The fact of the matter is that, morality is a social construct, and that humans have been socially selected to value certain trains and behaviors. For instance, murder is considered "bad" wherever you go. Could you argue that religion set the first standards of morality, sure. I would argue that society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religionever did.

If you can't look past your outdated book for teachings on morality, then you're probably the lost one here, because if you can't imagine morals without your book, what would you be doing right now without it?

One other thing. The only reason why it's not science's job to ask, "WHY" is because science, unlike religion, doesn't think that the universe literally revolves around them, and was made specifically for you. It's honestly really conceited.

I'm sure it works both ways. Generally Atheists tend to be anti-theiest and themselves believe that people who follow religion are lost.

With regards to your assertion about morality being a "social construct" then how do you explain for example the natural inclination of love between a Mother and it's child? Even in the animal kingdom you see this. Also the natural inclination to do good and what is "right"? You see the issue is that you will never be able to explain "natural inclination" but try to justify it in your mind with baseless illogical theories like everything else you disbelieve in. You will always have more questions than answers.

Whether you want to believe it or not we all follow something. In our case we follow an organised structured religion with guidance (scripture). In your case you follow Science. Now what we can say is that although religion can be dynamic the core principles will never change. However in your case Science is ever changing with many contradicting theories much of which does not have full backing by scientific basis.

So Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis much of which do not have any factual basis and will most probably never have answers to the most fundamental questions. However even in the scientific community there is a theist Vs anti-theist science where theist scientists put forward significant evidence to pointing towards an "Intelligent designer" and Atheist Scientists oppose it with some other weird baseless theories just to try and justify a "random existence theory".

Those with an atheist agenda are in authoratitive positions in the World and so have purposely given a media platform and authority to Atheist Science to spread their lies across Society and in schools trying to brainwash all to believe in baseless lies so that they eventually disbelieve in the truth and follow their arrogant desires.

However the truth will always prevail and you will see hate filled Atheists across the internet trying to justify their absurd theories to gain some sort of peace in their hearts but believe me you will always have more questions than answers and your religion - Science will never give you what you are looking for. So open your heart to the truth and without any bias look into the Qur'an for yourself:

https://quran.com/?local=en

 

[AntiScimitar]

"With regards to your assertion about morality being a "social construct" then how do you explain for example the natural inclination of love between a Mother and it's child? Even in the animal kingdom you see this. Also the natural inclination to do good and what is "right"? You see the issue is that you will never be able to explain "natural inclination" but try to justify it in your mind with baseless illogical theories like everything else you disbelieve in. You will always have more questions than answers. "

Morality is a social construct in the sense that there's no such thing as morality in the wilderness. The animals without the ability to survive, simply don't. That being said, if a tiger kills a pig, would you consider it wrong? No, the tiger is trying to get his dinner. That's because in the animal kingdom, they don't have "rules" or "Morality." Your assertion that I, as an atheist can't have a standard set of morals furthers the point that morality is a SOCIAL construct. (Because you think that with my atheism, I'm "removed" from your society, therefore can't have morals.) It's not illogical, it's actually the exact antithesis of illogical. Though, please continue with your Ad Hominem

In regards to a mother loving her child, even in the animal kingdom, that's simply the mother making sure that her child has enough tools to survive in their harsh environment, and keep the species moving. That being said, some snakes actually eat their eggs. If you touch a baby deer, it's mother won't be able to recognize it. But so much for "love" right?

I'm saying that people don't do things that animals do, because we are humans. Our societies have RULES, through many years of social selection. Criminals are "selected" out by going to jail (or whatever punishment is due in your society.) It even adds as incentive to not do, "Bad" things. You certainly don't need a religion to tell you right from wrong buddy.

Whether you want to believe it or not we all follow something. In our case we follow an organised structured religion with guidance (scripture). In your case you follow Science. Now what we can say is that although religion can be dynamic the core principles will never change. However in your case Science is ever changing with many contradicting theories much of which does not have full backing by scientific basis.

You are very right, we follow morals set by our society and/or worldview. Because it's a social construct.
I don't "follow" science. Science is a tool to explain the natural world, but it can't explain how you'll chose to live your life.
To clarify, there are things I know and believe (Like how the earth orbits around the sun) because it's backed by EVIDENCE. That doesn't mean that I "follow" science it just means that it's a tool that explains the world around me. It's entirely up to me to make my own assertions.

My main contention with you, thus far, is the idea that you need to, "Follow" something. Make your own choices about life.

So Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis much of which do not have any factual basis and will most probably never have answers to the most fundamental questions. However even in the scientific community there is a theist Vs anti-theist science where theist scientists put forward significant evidence to pointing towards an "Intelligent designer" and Atheist Scientists oppose it with some other weird baseless theories just to try and justify a "random existence theory".

The statement that, "Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis which do nothing have any factual basis." is entirely false. Plain and simple. Science aims for measurable results through testing and analysis.
The fact is, unlike religion, science doesn't make assertions without EVIDENCE.
A lot of theists toss around, "theory" and "hypothesis" interchangeably, but a theory is one of the highest honors something can receive in the scientific world, that's because "theories" are only found through constant testing and observation. In fact, the scientific method calls for repeated experimentation until the observation is indistinguishable from the theory.

Theist scientists in nature are biased. It's not a scientist's JOB to tell you whether or not you should believe in your god. It's a scientist's job to inform others so they can understand, and make conclusions of the natural world. That being said, a theist scientist first and foremost will always try to prove their god. This of course leads to discrepancies that can be contended.

Those with an atheist agenda are in authoratitive positions in the World and so have purposely given a media platform and authority to Atheist Science to spread their lies across Society and in schools trying to brainwash all to believe in baseless lies so that they eventually disbelieve in the truth and follow their arrogant desires.

It's statements like, this above me. Is why I'm here. For one, "Atheist Science" is simply "Science". That's because Science's job isn't to prove or disprove your god. Atheists USE science as a way to gain understanding of their natural world, and therefore the validity of claims produced by a religion. The "lies" you claim are simply observations of our natural world.

What I would call a, "lie" is the entire, "anti-science" agenda that theists tend to have. Especially since your religion attempts, a cute but albeit futile, attempt to prove itself. It's almost like you'll only use science when it supports your agenda and muslim worldview. :nervous:

However the truth will always prevail and you will see hate filled Atheists across the internet trying to justify their absurd theories to gain some sort of peace in their hearts but believe me you will always have more questions than answers and your religion - Science will never give you what you are looking for. So open your heart to the truth and without any bias look into the Qur'an for yourself:

It's weird how you call Atheists, "hate filled" when thus far, I haven't actually insulted you once. I don't have a problem with you, I just don't believe in your specific ideology. But, you on the other hand have made generalization, after generalization, after generalization on my character. All while keeping your shiny white, religious "high ground."
I think it says more about you than it does me.
I think it means that you don't like having your opinions challenged, so you'd rather smear others through the mud than actually, and honestly, have a conversation with them.

As far as the Quran goes, I was actually raised a muslim. I live in Riyadh, I've been to Mecca and Medina, I'm fluent in Arabic, and I have been an atheist for two years. It's funny how that now I'm an atheist, I can truly see the quran from an "unbiased" standpoint and reject it as false. While you, as a muslim by nature have to either refute, or deny any claims made about your book. Seems very biased to me.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

You still have not explained where "natural inclination" comes from. You dodged the question completely simply because you cannot explain it and have no answer for it just as you have no answer to the most fundamental questions of our existence.

Yes there are many cultural "norms" that come about in different societies in different era's but what is fundamental to all humans and animals is the natural inclination to love and care for off spring. This is not something that is "learnt". It is something innate in every living creature. If the first humans killed and ate their young then we would not be alive today. However they went against their natural inclination of eating to survive and even put their young before themselves in this regard. How do you explain that? They did not "learn it" as they were the first humans. The same is the case in the animal kingdom where the Mother sacrifices food for her young. There are many other natural innate inclinations but I have given these two as examples.

On top of that is the natural inclination to do good. If as you assert that everything moral is a "social construct" then why is "rape, murder" and every other evil thing not "morally accepted" by any society?

In Nazi Germany at the time it became "morally acceptable" to persecute, kill and maim the Jews just like it is "morally accepted" in Burmese society today with regards to the Rohingya. So in your view because it is "morally acceptable" in these societies then it is "acceptable". However in most societies from the beginning to now it is almost always "morally accepted" to do good and repel evil. Why is it not the other way around? Again it is because of a "natural inclination" to be good and do good.

You claim you don't follow Science as it is a mere tool to explain natural processes but what is asserted by Atheist Scientists you will blindly believe just because it is "claimed" that a particular theory has "scientific basis". Therefore you are a blind follower of Atheist Science.

You also falsley claim that Science does not make assertions without evidence when Atheist Science has made many baseless unsubstantiated assertions for example about the origin of life and how the first matter came into existence in the Universe. How we have "free will" when we are merely physical beings and many other fundamental questions that you will never have an answer for. Do you claim that Atheist Science has hard evidence for any of these things? Therefore your statement is fundamentally false and misleading and shows that you do not even know the basics of Science. So look into the principles of Science before following it blindly.

The atheist Science agenda does NOT "own" Science. Although you have taken Science as your religion it is not owned by the Scientists you blindly follow. In fact there are more Scientists that believe in a higher power than those who don't, but they do not have a media platform handed to them by the Atheist elite so they are not able to have a proper debate/discussion so people can judge whose arguments/theories etc has more basis.

Therefore do not claim to own something that is not yours. Science merely explains the natural processes created by God. They are essentially God's rules for Life. In fact believers in God are always in awe of his amazing creations the more we learn about natural processes and Science. Theist Scientists whom you obviously oppose because you hate everything "theist" have significantly more evidence to prove an "intelligent" design" theory than you have to prove a "random existence" theory. However you and other Atheists will never accept it no matter how much evidence there is not will there be widespread news of it in the media.

Stephen Hawking Admits Intelligent Design Is ‘Highly Probable’:

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/stephen-hawkins-admits-intelligent-design-is-highly-probable/

Renowned physicist finds PROOF of God: Universe was created by DESIGN in huge 'matrix'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/742567/PROOF-of-God-real-Michio-Kaku

I have not insulted you nor have I taken the moral high ground. I merely refuted your baseless statements. If you are going to come here making baseless assertions then of course you are going to be refuted.

You claim to have "believed" previously but it is clear you never did have true belief nor the proper understanding of Islam and after some experiences of some sort, consequently arrogance took over your heart and now you follow Atheist Science as your religion. A religion which has absolutely no basis or "hard" evidence to answer the most important and which fundamental questions of our existence.

If you are so happy with your life decision then why do you feel the need to trawl through forums debating with "theists" as to their beliefs? Surely it is because deep down you are not content with what you believe and have developed an ingrained hatred for those who do believe.

This is a common trait of "Apostates" in that they are so hate filled that they will not just leave it there and get on with their lives but they feel the need to "drag" others down with them. When they consistently fail to do so, the hatred within them continues to grow until they get louder and louder in their disbelief.

I hope one day you overcome the arrogance in your heart in rejecting the one who created you and do not "judge" Islam by the behaviour and actions of its followers but instead learn about Islam properly and not from Anti Muslim websites but from established scholars of Islam.

May Allah guide all whom are in disbelief to the truth. Ameen

However you have your religion and we have ours. If you cannot be content with that then you are essentially doing exactly what Allah has stated in the Qur'an:

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another).(4:89)

 

[AntiScimitar]

You still have not explained where "natural inclination" comes from. You dodged the question completely simply because you cannot explain it and have no answer to it just as you have no answer to the most fundamental questions of our existence.
No, I didn't dodge the question, I actually explained it in detail. In the natural world, it makes perfect sense that a mother would evolve traits to care for her child, as it would equip it with the traits necessary to survive. It's simple Darwinian evolution, "Natural inclination" isn't baffling. If you'd actually read what I said before saying, "HA WRONG." you would have read that.

Yes there are many cultural "norms" that come about in different societies in different era's but what is fundamental to all humans and animals is the natural inclination to love and care for off spring. This is not something that is "learnt". It is something innate in every living creature. On top of that so is the natural inclination to do good. These are things you can never refute and that which you will never be able to put at peace in your heart.

There's no such thing as, "cultural norms" in a natural world outside of society. Animals exhibit certain behavioral traits, because animals with these certain behavioral traits have a higher chance of surviving, which leads to offspring that then share these same behaviors. Nice straw man though.

If as you assert that everything moral is a social construct then why is "rape, murder" and every other evil thing not "morally accepted" by any society?
You just answered your own question. "Rape and murder" are "not accepted" by any society, but in the wilderness, were a tiger kills and eats a pig goes unnoticed, because of "society." Therefore morality is a social construct.

In Nazi Germany at the time it became "morally acceptable" to persecute, kill and main the Jews just like it is in Burmese society today with regards to the Rohingya. In your view because it is "morally acceptable" in these societies then it is "acceptable".
Yes, morality is a social construct is subjectively based off of the society that you were raised in. That's why Muslims don't like dogs, or that's why Japanese people aren't very religious. Or why Nazi's and KKK members hate Jews. Their morality is based entirely off of the society they were raised in, and have been exposed too.

That being said, you made a leap of faith there, when you said , "in your view, because it is (morally acceptable) in these societies, then it is acceptable." No, it is not acceptable with my own set of morals, but I'm saying that it would be considered "acceptable" in their society because morality is dependent on your society. Does that mean I approve of it? No, I don't recall ever giving my approval of that. I'm simply stating facts.

You claim you don't follow Science as it is a mere tool to explain natural processes but what is asserted by Atheist Scientists you will blindly believe just because it is "claimed" that a particular theory has "scientific basis". Therefore you are a blind follower of Atheist Science.
Once again, false. I don't blindly follow anyone. If the facts don't match up with their assertions, then it is false, therefore rejected. Once again though, most "Atheist Scientists" realize this, so they follow their claims with EVIDENCE. This is why peer review is a thing in the scientific world, to see if a theory and/or assertion is correct by independent testing. As in, if I released a study, other scientists would take this study and research it themselves to test it's validity.

You also falsley claim that Science does not make assertions without evidence when Atheist Science has made many baseless unsubstantiated assertions for example about the origin of life and how the first matter came into existence in the Universe. Do you claim that Atheist Science has actually got hard evidence for this? Therefore your statement is fundamentally false and misleading and shows that you do not even know the basics of Science. So look into the principles of Science before following it blindly.
No, this is also false. There's overwhelming evidence for the origin of life. The most current working theory would be the RNA world. If you want to know how the RNA got there to begin with, I would refer you to the Miller-Urey Experiment. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment)

The fact of the matter is that, there are working theories, but at this current day and age we simply just don't know, but are taking steps to figure it out as science advances. The thing is, we don't take, "We don't know, we're trying to figure it out" and say it was, "God." since we don't have any evidence leading towards, "God."

Atheist Science agenda does NOT "own" Science. Although you have taken Science as your religion it is not owned by those Scientists you blindly follow. In fact there are more Scients that believe in a higher power than those who don't but they do not have a media platform handed t them by the Atheist elite. Therefore do not claim to own something that is not yours. Science merely explains the natural processes created by God. In fact believers in God are always in awe of his amazing creations the more we learn Science. Theist Scientists whom you are obviously going to oppose because you hate everything "theist" have significantly more evidence to prove an "intelligent" design" theory than you have to prove a "random existence" theory.

I already said, I don't blindly follow "Atheist scientists". Stop saying that since it's simply false, and kind of offending. Atheism in it's essence is the absence of religion. I do not take science as my religion. Science is a tool that I can use to influence my worldview, but that does not mean that science is my religion. I have never claimed science as my religion.

Science merely explains the natural processes created by god, is a bold claim indeed. Especially since, no god has made a remarkable attempt of coming forward. That being said, Intelligent Design isn't a very remarkable worldview.

My problem with Intelligent Design is that it's simply not consistent with what we observe in our world. Intelligent Design is teleological, or goal orientated.

Everything has it's place in an intelligently designed world. Like how muslims believe that they were put on earth to worship god.

Another example, you could say that females have nipples for the purpose of feeding offspring.

But the fact is that not everything in this world has a purpose. Humans have vestigial organs that serve no function, like the appendix, or wisdom teeth. Or nipples on males, these don't serve a function.

One other thing that Intelligent Design would lead you too is a very centralized, hands on god. Except we have millions of gods and none of them have made an attempt to come forward. If they exist,of course.

Our world only gives the appearance of "intelligent design" through billions of years of natural process.


"In fact there are more Scients that believe in a higher power than those who don't but they do not have a media platform handed t them by the Atheist elite"
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. This is also a straw man. That being said, there have been many debates between religious scientists and nonreligious ones. For instance this one right here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FyBk_GU1hY
or this one right here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZubEuiy5aLc

I have not insulted you nor have I taken the moral high ground. I have merely refuted your baseless statements. If you are going to come here making baseless assertions then of course you are going to be refuted.
I haven't made a single baseless statement. Whereas you have made a plethora of baseless statements. From saying that, "Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis much of which do not have any factual basisTo, Atheist scientists spreading lies across society and in schools!

You claim to have "believed" previously but it is clear you never did have true belief nor the proper understanding of Islam and consequently arrogance took over your heart and now you follow Atheist Science as your religion which fails fundamentally to explain the origins of life.

That's a no true Scotsman fallacy, and I would say that I, as a muslim who moved to Saudi Arabia when I was 10, learned the language, memorized quran, and went too an a program to become an Imam, I have a lot of experience with your religion, it WAS my religion once.

If you are so happy with your life decision then why do you feel the need to travel forums debating with "theists" as to their beliefs? It is because deep down you are not content with what you believe and have developed an ingrained hatred for those that do believe. This is a common trait of "Apostates" in that they are so hate filled that they will not just leave it there and get on with their lives but they feel the need to "drag" others down with them. When they consistently fail to the hatred within them continues to grow until they get louder and louder in their disbelief.

No, I'd have to say that I am very content with my life as an atheist. That being said, I also think that one's worldview should be contended to actually matter. If you hold an opinion, you should be able to defend it, and argue for the other side.

I don't hate you. My parents are muslim and I still live with them. The fact is that I don't agree with your ideology. There's no, "Dragging down" with atheism. I don't "hate" religion, I simply don't believe in it. But, you are basically giving me the textbook, muslim response to criticism, so I don't really mind.

I hope one day you overcome the arrogance in your heart in rejecting the one who created you and do not "judge" Islam by the behaviour and actions of its followers but instead learn about Islam properly and not from Anti Muslim websites but from established scholars of Islam.

I think it's arrogant of you to assume that your religion is the "correct one" and that I'm rejecting the one who, "created me."

I think it's funny how you direct me towards, "established scholars of Islam" when you condemned me to, "blindly follow atheist scientists" just a couple paragraphs up.

Are you blindly following Islamic Scholars? Of course not, if one of them said something against the quran, or sunnah, you wouldn't agree with them. At the same time, if a scientist said something unscientific, I wouldn't agree with it.


May Allah guide all whom are in disbelief to the truth. Ameen
Maybe if Allah wasn't so focused on punishing the disbelievers, and actually decided to reveal himself, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I mean, can we take a moment and realize that prophets, holy books, and miracles are literally pointless? When you have an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever present being that can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants? I'm pretty sure it says, "كون فيكون" in your holy book.

If God wanted to actually reveal himself, he could. Or if he actually wanted disbelievers to follow him, he could. Especially since God would know exactly what it would take for a disbeliever to believe. I don't think that an all knowing, all powerful god would be satisfied with the Quran, or the Bible, or the Torah for that matter.




However you have your religion and we have ours. If you cannot be content with that then you are essentially doing exactly what Allah has stated in the Qur'an:

Almighty Allah says: They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another).(4:89)
That is false. I honestly don't care if you decide to reject your faith or not. I'm being 100% with you.

The fact of the matter is that your religion propagates a book without error, and a prophet of the highest moral standing, when it's simply not true. Therefore here I am.

 

[air]

Wow, you really have that, "Checkmate Atheist" feel to you.

Right off the bat, you assuming that atheists are "lost" is very naive. It is naive of you to assume that someone bases their morals entirely off of the scientific method, because that's not how the world works. Science is understanding of the natural world. It's not, "understanding why I should have enough human decency not to kill someone."
The fact of the matter is that, morality is a social construct, and that humans have been socially selected to value certain trains and behaviors. For instance, murder is considered "bad" wherever you go. Could you argue that religion set the first standards of morality, sure. I would argue that society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religionever did.

I don't know which post you are referring to, why do I feel that your post mean science = atheist, and since atheist is science, it has nothing to do with morality (I'm confused). As far as I know, atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities (wiki), because the existence of God can't be proved, and not science = atheist.

Murder is bad for most society, but not all.

If you can't look past your outdated book for teachings on morality, then you're probably the lost one here, because if you can't imagine morals without your book, what would you be doing right now without it?

Outdated book for teachings on morality? All things that do not change do not mean outdated, it can also mean solid. You're right we are lost soul and that's the purpose of Holy Qur'an, to guide us.

And I don't know that morality can be updated, what is the latest update of morality? Is the current human behavior related with morals different from the behavior of past humans?

Society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religion ever did? On the past, religions are against immorality, and the result, now the religious society is larger than the non-religious, which mean the society of religious people is the largest contributor of today morality.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

The fact of the matter is that your religion propagates a book without error, and a prophet of the highest moral standing, when it's simply not true. Therefore here I am.

BUT It is true. The state of your eeman or lack thereof is called spiritual blindness. In writing your posts, you forget one important fact known and taught to almost every kid born into Islam: God gives guidance only to those who desire/seek that guidance. (Knowing Arabic or having lived in Saudi Arabia for any length of time is not any guarantee of guidance just as speaking Sentinelese and living in parts unknown in a remote village inaccessible to most human population is not a guarantee of not receiving guidance.)

Best Wishes, because you'll need it trying to fill that God-shaped blank in your heart with anything other than God, *former atheist's acquired wisdom*,

 

[MuhammadHamza1]

Firstly.
You do not need to fear being killed if you are an apostate since there is no khilafah.Those Muslims,who leave Islam,when they live in the territory which is part of Khilafah,are the ones who are executed.There is no khilafah now.
Secondly.
The apostate is not killed on first notice.
You said freedom.Yes.The apostate is brought to scholors who answer his concerns.The apostate tells the scholors his reasons for leaving Islam,and the Scholors answer it.
If you had your questions rightly answered and you realized that you were wrong on matters which led to our apostacy,A rational person will come back to Islam.The insincere ones will leave Islam.Even after their Questions and concerns which led to their apostacy,have been answered,they still insist on leaving Islam.What does that mean?
It means that they are not sincere.And these insincere people,through their actions and morals,are a threat to other Muslims.Hence,they are killed.After the Apostate has been referred to the scholors,who have answered his Questions,he is given three days to reconsider.He is not killed immediately.

 

[AntiScimitar]

BUT It is true. The state of your eeman or lack thereof is called spiritual blindness. In writing your posts, you forget one important fact known and taught to almost every kid born into Islam: God gives guidance only to those who desire/seek that guidance. (Knowing Arabic or having lived in Saudi Arabia for any length of time is not any guarantee of guidance just as speaking Sentinelese and living in parts unknown in a remote village inaccessible to most human population is not a guarantee of not receiving guidance.)
No, insisting that your book is perfect and true, doesn't make it perfect and true. The same applies to your prophet. Especially when you guys tote around a geocentric, and just generally unscientific book.

That being said, you actually made a pretty good argument against god right there. If Islam were true, it wouldn't need you, or any دعئ to spread it, in fact, if your religion were true, people could reach the conclusion of Islam naturally, regardless of demographic, or where they're from.

But that isn't what we're seeing with the world... In fact, I would say that your demographic entirely determines your religion. Opposite of what you would like to believe. People from Saudi are Muslim, and people from some remote location in the world haven't received, "Guidance".

It's almost as if they believe their own religion valid and 100% true :nervous:

We see this consistently everywhere. People in america are generally christian, people from Japan are usually nonreligious, Mexico has a large catholic population, ect.

Also, I don't "NEED" something to fill the god-shaped hole in my heart, simply because I don't "HAVE" a god shaped hole in my heart. Just because that was your own experience with atheism, doesn't mean that it was mine.

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BUT It is true. The state of your eeman or lack thereof is called spiritual blindness. In writing your posts, you forget one important fact known and taught to almost every kid born into Islam: God gives guidance only to those who desire/seek that guidance. (Knowing Arabic or having lived in Saudi Arabia for any length of time is not any guarantee of guidance just as speaking Sentinelese and living in parts unknown in a remote village inaccessible to most human population is not a guarantee of not receiving guidance.)
No, insisting that your book is perfect and true, doesn't make it perfect and true. The same applies to your prophet. Especially when you guys tote around a geocentric, and just generally unscientific book.

That being said, you actually made a pretty good argument against god right there. If Islam were true, it wouldn't need you, or any دعئ to spread it, in fact, if your religion were true, people could reach the conclusion of Islam naturally, regardless of demographic, or where they're from.

But that isn't what we're seeing with the world... In fact, I would say that your demographic entirely determines your religion. Opposite of what you would like to believe. People from Saudi are Muslim, and people from some remote location in the world haven't received, "Guidance".

It's almost as if they believe their own religion valid and 100% true :nervous:

We see this consistently everywhere. People in america are generally christian, people from Japan are usually nonreligious, Mexico has a large catholic population, ect.

Also, I don't "NEED" something to fill the god-shaped hole in my heart, simply because I don't "HAVE" a god shaped hole in my heart. Just because that was your own experience with atheism, doesn't mean that it was mine.

 

[MuhammadHamza1]

Secondly.
You mentioned Freedom.
I will tell you something very important.Which many Muslims do not realize.
Take my example.
I LIVE WITH APOSTATES.
My Father went for Hajj,Pilgrimage,and then afterwards,when he returned back,he left the 5 daily prayers.
According to correct Scholarly opinion,the one who does not pray,is out of the fold of Islam.
My mother went for Hajj too,she still prayes.But she does many other things which takes one beyond the pale of Islam.Like listening to soothsayers as well as believing in many superstitions.
My brothers and sisters,when the month of Ramadan comes,Start praying and fast,but when Ramadan ends,They resort back and do not pray any longer.The enter Islam in Ramadan,but leave it afterwards.Thet leave prayers.Which makes them an apostate.
Now.Only I know what I have gone through at the hands of these people.I have been mocked,ridiculed,forced to do things I do not want to.
They tried to force me to do things which go against Islam.They hurt me deeply.
Am I not free to practice my religion?
What is the matter with these people?
No.It is their hearts.Apostates are the ones who take away your freedom.
And this case is not specefic to me.
I have read many other Muslims complaining about this thing.
What is this?
Apostates are the ones who take away religious freedom.You can search up the internet to witness the Muslims complaining about the same thing.
This reminds me of the verse of Noah,Peace and blessings be upon him.

[h=2]"And Noah said, "My Lord, do not leave upon the earth from among the disbelievers an inhabitant.[/h][h=2]Indeed, if You leave them, they will mislead Your servants and not beget except [every] wicked one and [confirmed] disbeliever." Al-Quran 71:26-27.[/h]Notice the words "They will mislead your servants."

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Secondly.
You mentioned Freedom.
I will tell you something very important.Which many Muslims do not realize.
Take my example.
I LIVE WITH APOSTATES.
My Father went for Hajj,Pilgrimage,and then afterwards,when he returned back,he left the 5 daily prayers.
According to correct Scholarly opinion,the one who does not pray,is out of the fold of Islam.
My mother went for Hajj too,she still prayes.But she does many other things which takes one beyond the pale of Islam.Like listening to soothsayers as well as believing in many superstitions.
My brothers and sisters,when the month of Ramadan comes,Start praying and fast,but when Ramadan ends,They resort back and do not pray any longer.The enter Islam in Ramadan,but leave it afterwards.Thet leave prayers.Which makes them an apostate.
Now.Only I know what I have gone through at the hands of these people.I have been mocked,ridiculed,forced to do things I do not want to.
They tried to force me to do things which go against Islam.They hurt me deeply.
Am I not free to practice my religion?
What is the matter with these people?
No.It is their hearts.Apostates are the ones who take away your freedom.
And this case is not specefic to me.
I have read many other Muslims complaining about this thing.
What is this?
Apostates are the ones who take away religious freedom.You can search up the internet to witness the Muslims complaining about the same thing.
This reminds me of the verse of Noah,Peace and blessings be upon him.

"And Noah said, "My Lord, do not leave upon the earth from among the disbelievers an inhabitant.

Indeed, if You leave them, they will mislead Your servants and not beget except [every] wicked one and [confirmed] disbeliever." Al-Quran 71:26-27.

Notice the words "They will mislead your servants."

 

[AntiScimitar]

Firstly.
You do not need to fear being killed if you are an apostate since there is no khilafah.Those Muslims,who leave Islam,when they live in the territory which is part of Khilafah,are the ones who are executed.There is no khilafah now.
Secondly.
The apostate is not killed on first notice.
You said freedom.Yes.The apostate is brought to scholors who answer his concerns.The apostate tells the scholors his reasons for leaving Islam,and the Scholors answer it.
If you had your questions rightly answered and you realized that you were wrong on matters which led to our apostacy,A rational person will come back to Islam.The insincere ones will leave Islam.Even after their Questions and concerns which led to their apostacy,have been answered,they still insist on leaving Islam.What does that mean?
It means that they are not sincere.And these insincere people,through their actions and morals,are a threat to other Muslims.Hence,they are killed.After the Apostate has been referred to the scholors,who have answered his Questions,he is given three days to reconsider.He is not killed immediately.​

I honestly can't believe that you're trying to JUSTIFY apostates being executed. All from your self conceived, "threat" to islam. The truth is that killing apostate is just a form of heavy censorship religions like this one use to stay afloat. It stands to be that you shouldn't be killed for apostasy, especially if you make your views public about this religion. The state of mind needed to, "See things as a threat to the religion" is the exact type of crowd mentality that furthered me leaving this religion to begin with.

Most countries have religious freedom, but the arab countries are seriously far behind.. I won't say all of them, but Saudi, Egypt, and Qatar are the main contenders. Maybe if they didn't kill and/or jail every single religious or political dissenter that came from their country, they would be nicer places.

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Firstly.
You do not need to fear being killed if you are an apostate since there is no khilafah.Those Muslims,who leave Islam,when they live in the territory which is part of Khilafah,are the ones who are executed.There is no khilafah now.
Secondly.
The apostate is not killed on first notice.
You said freedom.Yes.The apostate is brought to scholors who answer his concerns.The apostate tells the scholors his reasons for leaving Islam,and the Scholors answer it.
If you had your questions rightly answered and you realized that you were wrong on matters which led to our apostacy,A rational person will come back to Islam.The insincere ones will leave Islam.Even after their Questions and concerns which led to their apostacy,have been answered,they still insist on leaving Islam.What does that mean?
It means that they are not sincere.And these insincere people,through their actions and morals,are a threat to other Muslims.Hence,they are killed.After the Apostate has been referred to the scholors,who have answered his Questions,he is given three days to reconsider.He is not killed immediately.​

I honestly can't believe that you're trying to JUSTIFY apostates being executed. All from your self conceived, "threat" to islam. The truth is that killing apostate is just a form of heavy censorship religions like this one use to stay afloat. It stands to be that you shouldn't be killed for apostasy, especially if you make your views public about this religion. The state of mind needed to, "See things as a threat to the religion" is the exact type of crowd mentality that furthered me leaving this religion to begin with.

Most countries have religious freedom, but the arab countries are seriously far behind.. I won't say all of them, but Saudi, Egypt, and Qatar are the main contenders. Maybe if they didn't kill and/or jail every single religious or political dissenter that came from their country, they would be nicer places.

 

[MuhammadHamza1]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
"Allah gives guidance to those who seek it."
What it means is that if you sincerely seek guidance,God will reward you for your sincerity.
Secondly.
"It is almost as if they believe their own religion is valid and 100% true."
What this implies is that people generally consider that religion to be the ultimate truth,which they are taught in their childhood.
That is why,The Quran is the only book,which encourages CRITICAL THINKING.
IT does not say just believe.It says that YOU DO YOUR RESEARCH,THINK CRITICALLY,ASK CRITICAL QUESTIONS,INSPECT EVERY ELEMENT,AND THEN BELIEVE.BECAUSE SUCH PROCESS WILL LEAD YOU TO TRUTH RIGHT?AND THE TRUTH FEARS NO INVESTIGATION.
Hence,The Quran says:
" Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?" 47:24
Here,The Quran is encouraging critical thinking.
"When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?" (Surah Al-Baqara, 170)

"What their forefathers can also mean,the religion in which they are born to.Since,They follow the religion of their parents and consider it to be the ultimate truth.
You mentioned "God-Shaped hole" in the heart.Then,this is your answer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-God-is-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html:skeleton:

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Just answer my question.
Do you think that a person who goes out of the fold of Islam,even when the reasons and his arguments,which lead to his apostacy have been debunked by the scholors,is sincere and is a rational being?

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I honestly can't believe that you're trying to JUSTIFY apostates being executed. All from your self conceived, "threat" to islam. The truth is that killing apostate is just a form of heavy censorship religions like this one use to stay afloat. It stands to be that you shouldn't be killed for apostasy, especially if you make your views public about this religion. The state of mind needed to, "See things as a threat to the religion" is the exact type of crowd mentality that furthered me leaving this religion to begin with.

Most countries have religious freedom, but the arab countries are seriously far behind.. I won't say all of them, but Saudi, Egypt, and Qatar are the main contenders. Maybe if they didn't kill and/or jail every single religious or political dissenter that came from their country, they would be nicer places.[/quote

Just answer my question.
Do you think that a person who goes out of the fold of Islam,even when the reasons and his arguments,which lead to his apostacy have been debunked by the scholors,is sincere and is a rational being?​

​

 

[AntiScimitar]

I can honestly relate to your situation. Except it's the exact opposite. My parents are muslim, and I live with them. When I told them about my views on their religion, I was punished, my life was made hell. I was cut off from friends, and I was shunned until I re-entered the religion. Honestly, I doubt either of our situations will improve the way we want them too until we move out. If my kids decide to become religious, would I put them through this situation? Hell no. I relate to the mockery, and the ridicule, and the punishment.

It's not apostates who take away your freedom, but it's people without tolerance that take freedom away. Like your family, and mine.