Archbishop of Canterbury: Government has no right to introduce gay marriage

[جوري]

is for those people to seriously consider how they would feel or respond if it was their own child.

I doubt very much children who are raised upright would make such a disappointing choice!
You make it seem like people can't help who they bed- It is really a sign of the time to reduce mankind to nothing more than a mere animal acting on the basest of instincts without forethought or consequence!
You consistently advocate for the devil and his choices.. if your religion is so allowing that's your business but I really wish you'd desist with these inane hypothetical!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Semantics as if giving a choice to folks who have already defined for you what the rules of their religion constitute and then bullying them with another set of words to make them appear something they're not!

Only they haven't. Not all of them anyway. There are priests who will do marriage ceremonies for gay couples. And earlier we had a thread here about muslims who are ok with it too. The state wants to give them that choice. Why seek to deny it?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Why can't she just live together with her partner without getting legal marriage?

Why should they? Just because it bothers you and your religion? Would you say the same to a heterosexual couple? Would you be upset if I somehow stopped muslims from marrying other muslims? Why can't they just live together with their partners without getting legal marriage?

As I stated above, marriage comes with certain legal rights and responsibilities, not all of which are covered by being boyfriends/girlfriends or civil unions. Why should they be denied these benefits? Why should they let your views stop them from doing what they want? This isn't a theocracy.

 

[جوري]

Only they haven't. Not all of them anyway. There are priests who will do marriage ceremonies for gay couples. And earlier we had a thread here about muslims who are ok with it too. The state wants to give them that choice. Why seek to deny it?

You don't seem to understand that the religious institution is a done deal and not open to new renditions, at least as far as Islam is concerned, I don't find Christianity stable in ideology, tenets or beliefs although I am sure orthodox beliefs are prevalent amongst the corpus of those practicing. Individual objections are irrelevant here and always negligible!

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

I wonder why muslims should worry can gays marry in the UK. The UK is not islamic country at all!

^o)

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Salam alaykum

I wonder why muslims should worry can gays marry in the UK. The UK is not islamic country at all!

^o)

Because I live there!

More seriously though this is an important issue that we Muslims will have to deal with eventually. We have to be ready for all eventualities.

Look at the sorry state of Christianity in Europe, we don't want to end up like them do we?

 

[جوري]

Muslims will have to deal with eventually.

We've to deal with it right now with the rise of the so-called leftists in Egypt and other places who are looking to change the very identity Islam.

 

[sister herb]

Salaam



Because I live there!

More seriously though this is an important issue that we Muslims will have to deal with eventually. We have to be ready for all eventualities.

Look at the sorry state of Christianity in Europe, we don't want to end up like them do we?

Salam alaykum

But this is about Archishop opinion and he is not muslim at all.

I think you shoud worry opinions of imam not priest.

 

[GuestFellow]

Waliakum salaam,

UK has always been a country where many people indulged in immoral acts. There are people that are drunk on the streets, commit fornication and adultery, eat pork, drink alcohol, mix with opposite genders, wear revealing clothes and do all sorts of inappropriate stuff.

If your going to speak out against homosexuality, then speak out against other immoral practices too. Not much of a point to just speak out against homosexuality whilst other sins are being openly performed.

 

[جوري]

seems the Archbishop of Canterbury is having a devil of a time handling the gay marriage fiasco without being labeled something or another, you expect him to tackle stuff that's the very fabric of their culture that it has become the norm that I fear the ramifications of their identity crisis without it.
Yeah- ok good luck with that.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Salam alaykum

But this is about Archishop opinion and he is not muslim at all.

I think you shoud worry opinions of imam not priest.

Its worth listening to them because despite our (sometimes serious) differences we do have areas of common agreement. We shouldn't be sectarian about who we listen to and learn from.

Waliakum salaam,

UK has always been a country where many people indulged in immoral acts. There are people that are drunk on the streets, commit fornication and adultery, eat pork, drink alcohol, mix with opposite genders, wear revealing clothes and do all sorts of inappropriate stuff.

If your going to speak out against homosexuality, then speak out against other immoral practices too. Not much of a point to just speak out against homosexuality whilst other sins are being openly performed.

No man, this thread isn’t about what homosexuals do in their own lives, that’s their own business.

Its about how the change in the law is going to affect us and the rest of society. Which have potentially serious implications for the future.

I think the debate so far in this thread has been civil enough.

On the question of other topics and issues of the day, sure lets start another thread and talk about it. Don’t want to derail this thread.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

Why should they? Just because it bothers you and your religion? Would you say the same to a heterosexual couple? Would you be upset if I somehow stopped muslims from marrying other muslims? Why can't they just live together with their partners without getting legal marriage?

Two Muslims getting married to each other will not change the way anyone thinks about the meaning of marriage. Yet the acceptance of something called 'gay marriage' most certainly will. As the Bishop of Portsmouth wrote in his letter:

Marriage, ever since the dawn of human history, is a union for life and love between a man and a woman. It is a complementary relationship between two people of the opposite sex, the man and the woman not being the same, but different. They are not, in other words, absolutely equal but relatively equal. This is why gay couples, two men or two women, are not being ‘excluded’ from marriage; they simply cannot enter marriage.

By enabling gays to 'marry' and by equating the union of gay people with marriage, however well-intentioned, you are not only redefining what we mean by marriage but actually undermining the very nature, meaning and purpose of marriage. Marriage, and the home, children and family life it generates, is the foundation and basic building block of our society. If you proceed with your plans, you will gravely damage the value of the family, with catastrophic consequences for the well-being and behaviour of future generations. The 2011 Census shows the parlous state of the institution of marriage which you claim to believe in so strongly, and of family life in general, with one in two teenagers no longer living with their birth parents and over 50% of adults living outside of marriage.

Can you imagine the confusion and the challenge for teenagers as they grow up and seek to reach a fully mature and integrated sexuality? This is why I fail to see how your intentions can possibly strengthen the institution of marriage and family life. Rather they will dilute it.


Posted by Eric H here: http://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...ght-introduce-gay-marriage-4.html#post1558560
​

Why do these people get all up in arms about the free choices made by others? They are making it explicit that no church official is being forced to marry gay couples. Seriously, I find it very hateful and alarming when people seek to force their views (bigotry really) on others. If somebody doesn't support gay marriage, then they shouldn't get married to their own gender. Nobody is forcing them to.

We are not simply talking about the free choices that people make in their private lives. Here the discussion is about choices made by others whose consequences will impact the whole of society. If nobody speaks out about them, then everyone will be affected.

The Prophet Muhammad

said: "The likeness of the man who observes the limits prescribed by Allaah and that of the man who transgresses them is like a group of people who get on board a ship after casting lots. Some of them are in its lower deck and some of them in its upper (deck). Those who are in its lower (deck), when they require water, go to the occupants of the upper deck, and say to them: `If we make a hole in the bottom of the ship, we shall not harm you.' If they (the occupants of the upper deck) leave them to carry out their design they all will be drowned. But if they do not let them go ahead (with their plan), all of them will remain safe". [Al-Bukhaari]

There are many other texts in Islam all highlighting the responsibility to speak out against evil.

If your going to speak out against homosexuality, then speak out against other immoral practices too. Not much of a point to just speak out against homosexuality whilst other sins are being openly performed.

:salamext:

Those other sins you have mentioned are already acceptable in such a society, whereas the institution of a 'gay marriage' is something that has still been subject to debate and criticism - and from faiths other than Islam. If we have a chance to stop this from happening, should we not do what we can to oppose it?

We must speak out against what is wrong, sinful, and displeasing to Allah in society around us. Our scholars, leaders and preachers have a responsibility to take this lead. If we do not enjoin what is right and forbid what is evil, then what sort of protection do we hope for? We need to speak up for the sake of ourselves, for the sake of our children, and for the sake of our hereafter. We need to speak out for the sake of orphans who may find themselves being adopted by gay couples. Adultery, homosexuality, fornication are wrong and displeasing to God, and can never be right. There is no compromise in this. We do not want to be unjust to anyone but we should exercise our right to express what our religion teaches, and what is our duty to convey. Perhaps as a result of our speaking up and breaking this unworthy silence, Allah, we hope, will protect our future generations from the immorality that is so loathsome to our faith. Let us have faith, hope and trust in Allah, for Allah alone is our Protector.

Adapted from: http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/1521-a-disturbing-silence​

 

[GuestFellow]

No man, this thread isn’t about what homosexuals do in their own lives, that’s their own business.

It's related to the topic. There would not be this discussion if people did not thought homosexuality was acceptable.

Its about how the change in the law is going to affect us and the rest of society. Which have potentially serious implications for the future.

Serious? I doubt it if you compare to what will happen if the government does not resolve the economic crisis.

If you feel I'm derailing the topic, then do not respond to my statements. I think they are related but on a wider perspective. It's like a distraction compared to more serious issues.

:salamext:

Those other sins you have mentioned are already acceptable in such a society, whereas the institution of a 'gay marriage' is something that has still been subject to debate and criticism - and from faiths other than Islam. If we have a chance to stop this from happening, should we not do what we can to oppose it?

We must speak out against what is wrong, sinful, and displeasing to Allah in society around us. Our scholars, leaders and preachers have a responsibility to take this lead. If we do not enjoin what is right and forbid what is evil, then what sort of protection do we hope for? We need to speak up for the sake of ourselves, for the sake of our children, and for the sake of our hereafter. We need to speak out for the sake of orphans who may find themselves being adopted by gay couples. Adultery, homosexuality, fornication are wrong and displeasing to God, and can never be right. There is no compromise in this. We do not want to be unjust to anyone but we should exercise our right to express what our religion teaches, and what is our duty to convey. Perhaps as a result of our speaking up and breaking this unworthy silence, Allah, we hope, will protect our future generations from the immorality that is so loathsome to our faith. Let us have faith, hope and trust in Allah, for Allah alone is our Protector.

Adapted from: http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/1521-a-disturbing-silence​

:wa:

Oppose it, but oppose the other sins too. That's all I'm saying. It's like speaking out against robbery but completely ignoring murder. :/
It looks slightly odd if you put all your energy from opposing a certain conduct but then ignoring others...

 

[Muhammad]

Oppose it, but oppose the other sins too. That's all I'm saying. It's like speaking out against robbery but completely ignoring murder. :/
It looks slightly odd if you put all your energy from opposing a certain conduct but then ignoring others...

I agree with you - all of these issues need to be addressed. Perhaps the key reason why this issue is being focused on is because it's a change that the government is making now, whereas those other issues have been in place from before. We don't want an extra thing to add to the list. On top of this, it seems to be a new level of immorality that we have not known before.

 

[GuestFellow]

I agree with you - all of these issues need to be addressed. Perhaps the key reason why this issue is being focused on is because it's a change that the government is making now, whereas those other issues have been in place from before. We don't want an extra thing to add to the list. On top of this, it seems to be a new level of immorality that we have not known before.

I don't think what we are facing here is something new. Homosexuality was acceptable during the Greeks and Roman times...well to a certain extent. I think all these sins are interlinked to one another. I have heard of stories where men engage in homosexuality because they were drunk. The link here is alcohol and homosexuality. Partying at night is another way where young teenagers experiment.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Two Muslims getting married to each other will not change the way anyone thinks about the meaning of marriage. Yet the acceptance of something called 'gay marriage' most certainly will.

Marriage, ever since the dawn of human history, is a union for life and love between a man and a woman.

That isn't actually true, but even if it was, it is just an appeal to tradition so far. Just because something has been one way for a long time, doesn't mean it shouldn't change. If it did then there would be no democracies, we'd all be ruled by kings and warlords, blacks would be slaves, and women wouldn't be allowed to vote or own property.

Also, the meaning of marriage for people has been changing over and over for a long time now. Women used to be viewed as property, sold from the father to the husband. And then there is the issue of Poligamy (completely changes the meaning of marriage, no?) which we'll not get into here, other than to say that the whole "Marriage is between one man and one women" conflicts with poligamy as much as it does gay marriage. A lot of people also see marriage as being a relationship "under God" and that makes me wonder if they would oppose atheists being married.

And just because some new idea or fair treatment conflicts with your religion doesn't mean you should get to deny it to others who want it. The Quakers and Amish live in their traditional ways, by candlelight and everything, but they don't deny the rest of us electricity to our homes, or cars to drive around in.

By enabling gays to 'marry' and by equating the union of gay people with marriage, however well-intentioned, you are not only redefining what we mean by marriage but actually undermining the very nature, meaning and purpose of marriage. Marriage, and the home, children and family life it generates, is the foundation and basic building block of our society. If you proceed with your plans, you will gravely damage the value of the family, with catastrophic consequences for the well-being and behaviour of future generations.

He makes it sound like we are going to force his congregation into gay marriages. Allowing gays to marry doesn't make your marriage invalid. Nobody is forcing you to marry your own gender. You can go right on marrying opposite gender and having all these same things he speaks of here.

The 2011 Census shows the parlous state of the institution of marriage which you claim to believe in so strongly, and of family life in general, with one in two teenagers no longer living with their birth parents and over 50% of adults living outside of marriage.

That has nothing to do with gay marriage, since that exists just as much, or more so, in places where gay marriage isn't allowed.

Can you imagine the confusion and the challenge for teenagers as they grow up and seek to reach a fully mature and integrated sexuality?

That would be an argument against homosexuals raising children, wouldn't it? I don't see what that has to do with gay marriage.

We are not simply talking about the free choices that people make in their private lives. Here the discussion is about choices made by others whose consequences will impact the whole of society. If nobody speaks out about them, then everyone will be affected.

Knowing that some guys down the street are married to each other doesn't in any way threaten my (future) marriage.

 

[جوري]

Quick note from my phone here - to remind you that this is a conversation about the institution of marriage within the definition of religion not that state!
It's also interesting to note that Islam allowed for all those freedoms I.e women voting a just system, freedom from slavery etc. etc. and that it's secularism and/or erroneous ideologies that perpetuated them!
No one had a right to take away a woman's voice to tote giving it back to her and not a mere 100 yrs ago.
The problem indeed arises from what's borne of man's imagination for it's subject to imperfection, conflict and limited by ability and circumstance!
We're meant to follow a divine plan for Allah :swt: didn't create us to forget about us rather to illuminate a d guide the way!

 

[GuestFellow]

Quick note from my phone here - to remind you that this is a conversation about the institution of marriage within the definition of religion not that state!

:wa:

It's interesting you say that. It goes along with the separation of state and religion. Religion cannot interfere with the state but the state cannot interfere with religion. Therefore, those that support this form of governance cannot force "religious" institutions to accept homosexual marriages.

 

[glo]

I would still love them and care for them. But it doesn't means I would support their choices to make relationship with same gender partner. I would not push them into big sin.

I understand what you are saying, ardianto.

Is your concern that legalising and condoning same-sex-marriage would make it more attractive to people? Or even encourage people to 'try it out'?

 

[Muhammad]

:wasalamex

I don't think what we are facing here is something new. Homosexuality was acceptable during the Greeks and Roman times...well to a certain extent.

It is true that homosexuality is not something completely new - we know the story of the people of Prophet Lut (as). But in our context, we are specifically talking about equating the union between such people with marriage. This is a new development in the society in which we live. What was previously not acceptable in our society is now changing.