Are morals derived from religion/God??

[borboski]

Hmm... I must say, I joined this forum in a spirit of open learning, but I'm already becoming disappointed. Most of my posts have been misinterpreted, I'm accused of not making my points clearly, and people refuse to debate points. People seem to draw conclusions that don't follow any sort of rational logic - take the conclusion in one of the posts below:

So in reality - Islaam is much more relaxed, safer and perfect.

No - read your response - you haven't demonstrated this point.

But this takes the biscuit...

how come u did not notice a wonderful matter in the story ?? The father did not lie to the son & the son agreed happily & assured dad that , God Willing , u will find me among those who have patience . What a wonderful teaching....Subhan Allah. The young boy is not afraid of death , he is willing to obey God. How come , u find that sickening ?

I'm absolutely staggered that a sensible person would say this. In fact, I'm terrified. Please. Just read the story for yourself (some parts cut for brevity):

SARAH gave birth to a son, named Isaac. Abraham loved this son very much, and the Lord wished to see whether he loved his son more than God. When the boy had grown up, the Lord said to Abraham: "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you."

Abraham instantly arose, and by night saddled his ass, taking with him two young men and Isaac his son. On the third day he came in sight of [the place] where he was to sacrifice his son; and he said to his servants: "Stay here with the donkey; the boy and I will go over there; we will worship, and then we will come back to you."

Then he took the wood for the holocaust and laid it upon the shoulders of Isaac. He himself carried in his hands fire and a sword. As they went along Isaac said: "Father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." He said, "The fire and the wood are here, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Abraham said, "God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son." So they went on together.

When they reached the top of the mountain, Abraham erected an altar, placed the wood upon it, bound his son and laid him on the altar. Then he put forth his hand and took the sword to sacrifice his son. But behold! an angel from heaven cried out to him, saying: "Abraham, Abraham." And he answered: "Here I am." And the angel said: "Lay not your hand upon the boy, neither do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, and have not spared your only-begotten son for My sake."

In what sort of sick, perverted world is this story supposed to be inspiring? Let's imagine this tawdry little parable is real, and imagine that poor child. Seriously, just for a second close you eyes and consider what it must have been like. This poor boy's **** of a father LIES to him, telling him that they are going for a fun camping weeking together. Then he says the pair of them are going off to worship together. Look how the Bible tells us that Isaac cries "Father!" - is he worried, or excited, or pleased that he and his dad are having this private moment together? No matter, his pathetic father tells us "God himself will provide the lamb", knowing full well what he plans to do.

Then he BOUND his son. Imagine how petrifying it would be if you own father tied you up. And why would you tie someone up? In case they struggled? Have you ever been tied up against your will? I haven't. I don't think I'd like it.

But then your father places you an altar, and then he takes out a SWORD, and he raises the sword! You can see in his eyes that he is prepared to kill you. Just imagine seeing your father's eyes, his arm, knowing that he'd lied to you, this man you trust, and love, and here he is tying you up and standing above you about to cut and main you.

I don't think the Bible bears any relation to whether or not there is a God - but if someone showed me that the God of the Old Testament existed - it wouldn't matter. If there is any proof that morality doesn't come from religion - it is that I would still choose not to follow such a God - because such a God is a despicable, cruel creature, and my own moral views put His to shame.

And you, Muslim Women, should be ashamed for taking pleasure in what can only be described as the cohertion and physical and psychological torture of an innocent young child. For shame. As Joseph Welch said, "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?".

 

[- Qatada -]

erm.. borborski, who said we believe in the bible version, and who said we believe the bible is authentic? :?



This is from the Qur'an:

“So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.

And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him [i.e. a teen], he said: ‘O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offering you in sacrifice to Allaah). So look what you think!’ He said: ‘O my father! Do that which you are commanded, In sha’ Allaah (if Allaah wills), you shall find me of As-Saabiroon (the patient).’

Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allaah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);

We called out to him: ‘O Ibraaheem!

You have fulfilled the dream!’ Verily, thus do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers).

Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial.

And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. a ram)”

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[Qur'aan al-Saffaat 37:101-107]


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And remember that it's part of forum rules to not insult/attack any of the Prophets of God;

No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his family and companions, or any other prophets in Islam, or Islamic scholars, past or present. While some may complain that there is "freedom of speech" please remember this is a privately owned discussion board which was created and is maintained to serve the purpose of promoting Islam. What is allowed in speech is determined by the Admin and not the member. 20% warning


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Thankyou.

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[borboski]

No one said that anyone believed the bible version of it. My post doesn't imply that anyone did. However, as my post sets out, Muslim Woman said that the story is "wonderful", "wonderful teaching" and asked "what is sickening". Why do you think that my post implies that?

I've noticed that in my post I say Muslim Women not Woman, obviously I'm referring to the poster, and not all muslim women.

 

[- Qatada -]

She doesn't need to feel ashamed since the story isn't evil, and he wasn't killed anyway since it was all a trial. It showed his dedication to Allaah however. So there's nothing to be ashamed/embarrassed about at all.


Regards.

 

[borboski]

A-ha, I didn't realise that Abraham was a prophet of God - I see you've edited the post. Apologies if I cause anyone offence. One of the things I find very strange is that Muslim people think that words matter, but fair enough, different cultures and all.

Nor did I realise that there is a different account in the Koran. But I would point out that it is absolutely clear that Muslim Woman is referring to the account in the Bible version. Maybe she didn't mean to say this, but it is absolutely what she says. She even quotes the relevant text - sorry to be pedantic.

From my point of view the version in the Koran is possibly even more disturbing, as this child (how old is he supposed to be?) has effectively been brainwashed to give up his valuable life. I don't know what you think about assisted suicide, but I'm guessing that most reasonable muslims don't think that very young children should be commited to execute themselves, even if they say that God has told them to.

I mean when I was a lad if my dad told me that he had seen in a dream that he was going to take a knife and plunge it through my skin into my body, once, twice, thrice until I were dead, I would have told him to get knotted, then told my mum, who would have informed the police.

 

[borboski]

So you to think that in the Bible version - it doesn't matter what degree of suffering was caused by the child - you think this doesn't actually count because he was executed?

If you had a child would you bind him and then demonstrate that you were going to kill him? I sincerly hope that you would be embarassed about that, or I suggest that you don't have children.

 

[borboski]

Wasn't executed I mean.

Can I edit posts here? I can't work it out.

Nighty night.

 

[- Qatada -]

Aha! i edited my post. So kool init?


It's mentioned that he was a teen, and we know that the dreams of the Prophets are true and a form of revelation from Allaah.

Sis Muslim Woman believes in the Qur'an since this version is authentic, unlike the biblical version. And since she's muslim - she knows that this is the truth.


And your continuous attacking won't get you nowhere, since the main concepts explained well - that he never sacrificed him. Therefore the argument you put forward about God being evil is fruitless, since it's God Himself who stopped it from occuring.



Regards.

 

[borboski]

How do you do this magical act of editing!!!?

Again - I wasn't making an argument about the existence of God, you can see that the poster in question is commenting on someone's feelings about the account in the Bible. You can tell this because she quotes them. I wonder that maybe this person just isn't aware of the Biblical account, she would have to confirm this. But I hope that she does read this, because in most mainstream social situations to say that one thinks the Biblical story of Abraham is "wonderful" marks you out as an utter savage.

Obviously, most Christians don't think the Old Testament is the literal word of God, they accept that it's mostly mythology written by people thousands of years ago, who were trying to explain things like creation which they didn't have the techonological ability to understand.

 

[- Qatada -]

Okay, thanks for the clarification.


By the way, you'll be able to edit your posts once you reach 50 posts, you'll get there soon insha Allaah (God willing.)



Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: What happens to Muslims who leave Islam?

Therefore he never killed himself (the suicide bomber or Abraham's son), which is the main thing we're discussing.

No, the main thing we are talking about here isn't the ends but the intentions and motivations - the morality. The suicide bomber that gets called off but WAS going to commit the act is demonstrating his brainwashed lack of empathy for his victims. Same with the Abraham and Isaac story.

There's the problem, who decides when the death penalty should be applied within the US? And who's to say that it wont change at any time when the person isn't aware of it? Will they have the excuse to say that "i didn't know?"

I don't support the death penalty in any case, but even amongst those who do, it is never as arbitrary as you seem to be implying. You get the death penalty for killing others or putting them in grave danger. You don't get the death penalty for jaywalking - and if you did it would be immoral and most folks would realize that (though they may fear the regime too much to challenge it). Even when applying the death penalty for murder one still may hesitate due to an inate sense of empathy.

The conviction helped to fuel Senator Joseph McCarthy's investigations into anti-American activities by U.S. citizens. While their devotion to the Communist cause was well documented, the Rosenbergs denied the espionage charges even as they faced the electric chair.

McCarthyism was nationalism combined with fear of an enemy (Russia) who was demonized. If you look at the rhetoric of the time you will find frequent, indeed fanatic use of religion to rationalize it all. This was the period when "In God we Trust" was put on the money and "under god" was put in the pledge of allegiance.

I'd like to address the recurring theme in here that killing apostates is the equivalent of treason charges and executions in the US. This is a bad analogy. People are charged with treason in the US for giving state military secrets to enemies, thus endangering the safety of the people. People are not charged with treason for simply renouncing their citizenship, or even for encouraging others to do likewise. If somebody from Maine decides he prefers Canada and applies for Canadian citizinship and gives up US citizenship, the US military isn't going to hunt him down and kill him. They won't even if he encourages others to do the same.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Well from my understanding, which might be wrong thus hendering our whole conversation, morals are something which we only have due to, mainly, our outside influences, thus a baby who is brought up in cannibalism is able to find that morally ok, where as a person brought up in a conservative house would find it haunting to let's say partake in public nudity.

Morality is more than indoctrination, which is what I think you are refering to. It is true that the conservative family is indoctrined into the nudity taboo and there isn't much else going on morally speaking, but the canibal child has to fight against his sense of empathy and compassion to go and kill people and eat them with his parents. True, indoctrination CAN overcome empathy, but it takes some doing (more indoctrination than the shame of body family), and usually that doing involves religion.

So it was from that understanding that I said what I said, that my morals are a product of my upbringing, my parents and family and society influencing them most. If that is the case then I see no problem in adapting morals.

Your morals are more than just the product of your upbringing, else why would there be core moral values that are universal to all societies? Empathy (seeing yourself in others and feeling their pain - this has even been tracked to specific mirror neurons in the brain) also plays a role. Self interest and preservation also dictates that certain things will more often be found imoral than others in any given society.

Morality is more than bare obedience. It scares me to think that some people have no moral compass other than to obey and think and feel whatever an authority figure tells them (whether or not that figure is a perceived god).
I believe that people who claim to lack moral compass absent God (the ones who claim atheists can't be moral for example - and no I'm not saying this applies to anybody in this thread specifically) actually DO have such a moral compass but have just burried it so deep below religious indoctrination that they don't recognize its there.

But if we take the example that this God is a Just God, All knowing, and Merciful, then Morality is to be expected, would you in that case then use His Teachings as a scale?

I may, but not when he starts demanding things that fly directly against my moral sense. For example, a God or leader who tells me to Kill you because you have brown eyes instead of blue eyes, isn't one I would continue to consider moral (especially if I myself have brown eyes). Morality would trump obedience. Only with heavy indoctrination and propaganda (and I'd expect religion to be used as a big part of it (as it was in nazi germany)) coupled with threats to my personal safety may I be brought back in line and do the deed.

Well then Morals would be shifting constantly, thus, what you might percieve as someone trying to overcome his morals for selfish gain, might actually be someone who has been given those morals by those around him, thus a cannibal, is not being selfish but only acting on the level of morals he knows, to presume your morals are better than his or anyones is guesswork, unless you believe your morals come from a greater source.

You don't need to believe that morals come from a creator being to realize that there are core moral values that are universal. Self preservation and empathy plainly dictate that they will exist.

I doubt religion is the best, because, well then again it differs from religion to religion, but ideologies can be just as bad

Ideologies can be bad. Nationalism is one of the worst. But even it does not approach the power of religion. Religion is the only one that has people self monitoring themselves to such a degree that they literally believe they are being watched at all times by an all powerful being who will punish them severely if they stray from their directives.

 

[Pygoscelis]

How do you do this magical act of editing!!!?

I remember asking the exact same question, and being frustrated that I couldn't edit my posts. A cruel initiation ritual I suppose it could be called. You, my dear borboski, are being hazed.

Now... where is that can of shaving cream?

 

[Joe98]

BTW , Bible tells u to kill the person who mocks God.......

do u find this incredibly disturbing

I don’t find it disturbing. Christians don’t find it disturbing.

I challenge you to find a newspaper article in the 20th or 21st century, where Christians declare that a person should be killed for mocking God. There are none.

Now I challenge you to find a newspaper article in the 21st century where Muslims call for death for apostasy. There are plenty.

Westerners and Christians find most punishments prescribed in the Bible as barbaric.

Barbaric punishment is against the philosophy of Christianity.

-

 

[Pygoscelis]

Joe, you gotta respect the muslims for being straightforward and honest though. The Christians jettisoned the majority of the bible a long while ago, yet still kling to the book and claim to believe it. Muslims actually believe what they claim to. As disturbing as some of their views are, the honesty is refreshing.

 

[aamirsaab]

No, the main thing we are talking about here isn't the ends but the intentions and motivations - the morality. The suicide bomber that gets called off but WAS going to commit the act is demonstrating his brainwashed lack of empathy for his victims. Same with the Abraham and Isaac story.

The concept of the Abraham and Isaac story was that God will test us all.

Even when applying the death penalty for murder one still may hesitate due to an inate sense of empathy.

Indeed. However, as humans we have to have justice or we'll all go around killing everyone, unchecked and unchallenged since we have the 'empathy' card to play.

I'd like to address the recurring theme in here that killing apostates is the equivalent of treason charges and executions in the US. This is a bad analogy. People are charged with treason in the US for giving state military secrets to enemies, thus endangering the safety of the people. People are not charged with treason for simply renouncing their citizenship, or even for encouraging others to do likewise. If somebody from Maine decides he prefers Canada and applies for Canadian citizinship and gives up US citizenship, the US military isn't going to hunt him down and kill him. They won't even if he encourages others to do the same.

The apostacy ruling is not that simple. It only applies in certain cases e.g. there were many apostacies at the time of the Prophet [saw] where the death penalty was only issued to those who were true traitors (such as those who would give military secrets to enemies etc). Not every apostate was given the death penalty. Unfortunately in certain ''muslim'' countries nowadays, this ruling has been completely missunderstood resulting in oppression and tyranny.

Morality is more than indoctrination, which is what I think you are refering to. It is true that the conservative family is indoctrined into the nudity taboo and there isn't much else going on morally speaking, but the canibal child has to fight against his sense of empathy and compassion to go and kill people and eat them with his parents.

The canibal child does what he has to do to survive. It is possible to go against our morality because we have free will. Morality doesn't restrcit you, it is merely a barrier that sometimes we have to cross.

It's all about maintaing a balance though and that is what religion is for.

You don't need to believe that morals come from a creator being to realize that there are core moral values that are universal. Self preservation and empathy plainly dictate that they will exist.

This is true and backs up what was in my previous post (which you did agree to )

Ideologies can be bad. Nationalism is one of the worst. But even it does not approach the power of religion.

A knife is a powerful tool, depending on it's user. The same with religion.

Religion is the only one that has people self monitoring themselves to such a degree that they literally believe they are being watched at all times by an all powerful being who will punish them severely if they stray from their directives.

That maybe true for certain followers. But it is not for me; I do what I feel is correct and just (namely being the token level-headed, sarcastic muslim of all groups...), Punishment doesn't come into it as far as I am concerned.

....Muslims actually believe what they claim to.

Yes indeed we do and we'll stick by it until the end .

As disturbing as some of their views are, the honesty is refreshing.

As is our breath

In anycase, thank you for reading. I look forward to your/any response.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace

I don’t find it disturbing. Christians don’t find it disturbing.-

---Are u sure Christians don't find it disturbing ?

I challenge you to find a newspaper article ...

--i m not talking about newspaper but the holy book . Pl. confirm me , are u sure , Christians belive all citizens of a city must be killed for idol worshipping ?

Westerners and Christians find most punishments prescribed in the Bible as barbaric.

--what are trying to say ....typo error ?????? If killing of all citizens is not disturbing to u & Christians , then how & why other punishment in Bible are babaric ????

Barbaric punishment is against the philosophy of Christianity.

---oh , why no one is telling this to Bush ? Is he not a Chrisitian ?

Pygoscelis : As disturbing as some of their views are, the honesty is refreshing

---can u describe the disturbing views ?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace

And you, Muslim Women, should be ashamed for taking pleasure in what can only be described as the cohertion and physical and psychological torture of an innocent young child.

LOL , should i jump in to the sea ??? :giggling:


Prophet Ismail ( Isaac was not born at that time --pbut ) was a believer & he knew that the command came from God Almighty. So , he bravely said he will obey God.


My dad is not a Prophet (p) & he knows it very well ; so he won't do such thing Insha Allah . Even if he asks me to do so , i will run , run & run away from him because my faith is not that strong . U see the difference / moral now ? They submitted fully to God....the son even thrown stones to Satan ( devil ) when he tried to misguided him.


Also remember , the father did not sacrifise for any earthy benefit....God did not tell him , u will be rich or young forever if u kill ur son etc. Pl. read Quran & u will find the beauty / moral of the story ( God Willing ).

Now , pl. try to learn lessons from the lives of Prophets (pbut ). God tested them & they passed successfully. Even when a Prophet (p) was a young boy , he showed full submission to God .......Alhamdulillah ( praise be to God only ).


Suicide bombers r not Prophets , they are not supposed to get any revelation from God. They are killing innocent lives & thus disobeying God's commands .....how can u compare them with 2 blessed Prophets (pbut) ?


Muslims all over the world remember the great sacrifise of the Prophets . They go to Saudi Arabia , visit the places where the incident took place
( sacrifise of ram instead of son , throw stone to devil etc ) , do offer Qurbani ---------soooooooooooooooooooo many things are there in that story to learn , won't u try to understand ?

Would u like to do a virtual tour there ? here is a link

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/H/hajj

 

[Pygoscelis]

The concept of the Abraham and Isaac story was that God will test us all.

Test us like a mobster tests a new recruit maybe. Prove your allegiance Abe. Kill your son for us. Kill him now. psst don't tell him the gun isn't loaded.

Indeed. However, as humans we have to have justice or we'll all go around killing everyone, unchecked and unchallenged since we have the 'empathy' card to play.

Empathy encourages people NOT to kill everyone. You've got it backwards.

The apostacy ruling is not that simple. It only applies in certain cases e.g. there were many apostacies at the time of the Prophet [saw] where the death penalty was only issued to those who were true traitors (such as those who would give military secrets to enemies etc). Not every apostate was given the death penalty. Unfortunately in certain ''muslim'' countries nowadays, this ruling has been completely missunderstood resulting in oppression and tyranny.

It should say to kill people who give military secrets to enemies if it only applies to people who give military secrets to enemies, apostacy would be irrelevant.

The canibal child does what he has to do to survive. It is possible to go against our morality because we have free will. Morality doesn't restrcit you, it is merely a barrier that sometimes we have to cross.

True

It's all about maintaing a balance though and that is what religion is for.

Religion may keep a few otherwise dangerous individuals in check, but more often such individuals will twist their understanding of religion to rationalize their evil acts.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Even if he asks me to do so , i will run , run & run away from him because my faith is not that strong

Glad to hear that your "faith" won't lead you to ritual suicide. Too bad some people's does.

Also remember , the father did not sacrifise for any earthy benefit....God did not tell him , u will be rich or young forever if u kill ur son etc. Pl. read Quran & u will find the beauty / moral of the story ( God Willing ).

Why does it matter if he was bribed with favours in the afterlife? The bare facts are that he was told to kill his son and he was ready to comply. There weren't even any balancing factors - nobody was threatened to die or be hurt if he refused to kill his son. This wasn't a complicated moral decision at all, and he made the wrong choice - one demonstrating blind obedience and a complete lack of morality.

Suicide bombers r not Prophets , they are not supposed to get any revelation from God.

I think some of them may disagree with you on that.

They are killing innocent lives & thus disobeying God's commands

The only difference is that you believe God to have commanded the murder in one case and prohibited it in the other. In both cases an innocent is murdered. This again underscores that this is a matter of mere obedience, flying in the face of morality.