Are the following passages "corrupted"?

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The final 8 verses of the book of Deuteronomy speak of Moses' death. These closing verses were believed to be most likely written by Joshua or by Eleazar the high priest.

thanks you nailed it - the catholics who were protectors of christianity clearly got it wrong with the bible when they have 73 books - why did they mess with the bible - it took them to the 16th century reformation to get it right? awfully long time.

Indeed the last verses of deuteronomy have been added God knows what else has been added and taken out.

These are clear problems.
 
As I see this post derailing a bit, I'll post two more quotes for everyone to enjoy. The first is the adulterous woman:

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered round him, and he sat down to teach them.
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4 and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?'
6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.'
8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, 'Woman,1 where are they? Has no-one condemned you?'
11 'No-one, sir,' she said. 'Then neither do I condemn you,' Jesus declared. 'Go now and leave your life of sin.'

Interestingly enough, I've seen the part where Jesus writes down on the ground paired with Daniel 5:5, Jeremiah 17:13, or as an equivalent of the following statement: "I'm the one who has written the Law and you're trying to trap me?!" Just thought it was some interesting information to pass along.

Second passage is when Jesus started preaching:

1 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them. He said:
3 'Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 'Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
 
2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered round him, and he sat down to teach them.
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?'
6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.'
8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10Jesus straightened up and asked her, 'Woman,1 where are they? Has no-one condemned you?'
11'No-one, sir,' she said. 'Then neither do I condemn you,' Jesus declared. 'Go now and leave your life of sin.'

Yes, that one was corrupted alright. It shouldn't appear as part of John's gospel.
 
Actually the if you'd like to get technical the Council of Rome in 382AD, under Pope Damascus set the canon at 73 books. It's been the same ever since with various catholic church councils repeating the same 73 book canon over the centuries.

In the 1500's Martin Luther a catholic monk disagreed with the Old Testament canon and moved the books around to different areas due to it conflicting with his beliefs. But the worst part was when he added to it under his own authority the word,"alone." Specifically, in Romans 3:20, 3:28, and 4:15. He did this to support his view of ,"justification."

As for why there are only 66 books in the reformation canon that has more to do with money than anything else. It was expensive to make a book back then so if you follow Martin Luther and need to save money it is far more cost effective to reduce the number of books in the Old Testament that Luther didn't like anyway if your a publisher. Sadly, the end result is that the reformation churches don't get access to all the books that could help explain to them why the Catholic Church believes as it does (ie purgatory, saints, etc).

As for the Orthodox Canon having more I can't say why they do just that they do, anywhere from 76 to 88 depending on which Orthodox Church you belong to.

I just wanted to point this out to show that the Catholic Church Canon has been the same a very long time.
Peace be with you.
 
The rested part is the problem here (very famous).

Just so long as you don't go away with the idea that the Bible says that the universe was created in six days.

John 5:16-17 says: "For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."

Obviously with reference to the seventh day, the Sabbath, Jesus tells us that God has continued to work without letup. God does not need to rest as if he could grow weary. But from the beginning of the seventh day God has found it an appropriate time to cease from creating new things for a while. Nevertheless God has been active with other work.
 
God does not need to rest

we agree.
However, the bible says God rested.

2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered round him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?' 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.' 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, 'Woman,1 where are they? Has no-one condemned you?' 11'No-one, sir,' she said. 'Then neither do I condemn you,' Jesus declared. 'Go now and leave your life of sin.'

Even christian scholars say this part is corrupted.
You need to ask the scribes who thought it was okay to put words in Jesus' mouth.
You believe that Jesus (pbuh) is God, right?
Do you think it is ok to lie and attribute words and actions to God, things that he didnt do?
if it is not ok, then why do people still follow the liars and not follow the true message and teachings of God?
 
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Which scholar and what is the evidence it was corrupted? Or a better question. If it is corrupted then why would the Koran point to the Bible for verification as it clearly does ? That would throw doubt at the Koran as well which would be counter productive.

Peace be with you
 
Which scholar and what is the evidence it was corrupted?

I am surprised you didnt know this very well-known fact:
The part of John 8 about the sinner and Jesus (pbuh) not upholding the law was NOWHERE to be found in all oldest bible manuscripts from the 3rd and 4th centuries.

Did you not find it mindboggling that one of the most beloved bible stories by christians was actually fabricated?
The story is especially loved by christians who are so fond of sinning, using it as examples that sinning is ok and shouldnt be punished. Hence the downward spiral of christianity.

Just in case you dont know your bible, you may want to read other corruptions and fabrications in the bible here:

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1
http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God-Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/0062012614/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Scriptures-Books-that-Testament/dp/0195182502/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interru...tradictions/dp/0061173940/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_3

It's a very good investement of time and money, as it may help your well being in this world and hereafter.
 
Naidamar,
Interesting links with some good points even. Still, the fact that those books are all written by the same author would seem to make it one man's opinion. Highly educated though he clearly is this subject is nothing new. The scriptures have been attacked for centuries. This is just illustrates why the Evangelicals and other Bible Only Christians have a hard to dealing with what textual scholars such as Dr. Ehrman find or don't find as they put all their faith in the scriptures alone to guide them. This isn't so much the case with the Catholic and Orthodox churches as we are guided through Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition as well as the Sacred Scriptures. If anything this should illustrate why those Christians who aren't Catholic should come home to,"The Church."

Peace be with you
 
Interesting links with some good points even. Still, the fact that those books are all written by the same author would seem to make it one man's opinion. Highly educated though he clearly is this subject is nothing new. The scriptures have been attacked for centuries. This is just illustrates why the Evangelicals and other Bible Only Christians have a hard to dealing with what textual scholars such as Dr. Ehrman find or don't find as they put all their faith in the scriptures alone to guide them. This isn't so much the case with the Catholic and Orthodox churches as we are guided through Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition as well as the Sacred Scriptures. If anything this should illustrate why those Christians who aren't Catholic should come home to,"The Church."


It's not just DR. Ehrman. Did you not read what I wrote:

I am surprised you didnt know this very well-known fact:
The part of John 8 about the sinner and Jesus (pbuh) not upholding the law was NOWHERE to be found in all oldest bible manuscripts from the 3rd and 4th centuries.
You can ask your pastor, or you can ask your pope if you dont believe me.

Of course the subject is not new, christian pastors and popes and priests, etc have known long ago about this fact and they kept burying their head in the sand and follow their whims and desires instead of actually following Jesus (pbuh), what is mindboggling is that those same people who claim to follow Jesus (pbuh) actually do not mind that scribes fabricated stories and falsely attributed it to Jesus (pbuh).

And then you said that catholic church is guided by apostolic succession and sacred tradition. Is the following an example of such apostolic succession and sacred tradition:

1. Pope Alexander VI (1431 – 1503)



The reward for “Baddest Pope Ever” arguably goes to Rodrigo Borgia, who enjoyed the benefits of having an uncle who just happened to be Pope Calixtus III. Thanks to his convenient social status, Borgia passed through the ranks of bishop, cardinal, and vice-chancellor, gaining enormous wealth along the way. In 1492, he was actually able to buy his way into the papacy, defeating two other opponents by means of bribery.
Alexander was so corrupt that his surname eventually became a byword representing the hellishly low papal standards of the time. He sired at least seven different illegitimate children by his mistresses, and didn’t hesitate to reward them with handsome endowments at the church’s expense. When low on finances, he either established new cardinals in return for payments, or he slammed wealthy people with completely fabricated charges, jailed or murdered them for said false charges, and then stole their money.
Not surprisingly, there is very little about Alexander VI that can be considered godly or even lawful. His goals were selfish and ambitious, and the orderly government he initially administered quickly deteriorated until the city of Rome was in a state of complete disrepair. The words spoken by Giovanni de Medici (the future Pope Leo X) after Borgia’s election are telling:
“Now we are in the power of a wolf, the most rapacious perhaps that this world has ever seen. And if we do not flee, he will inevitably devour us all.”



 
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we agree.
However, the bible says God rested.


Please note the context of what I said: "God does not need to rest as if he could grow weary." But there was another reason for God to rest from his creative works. Everything that God had created was sufficient for the time being. The seventh "day of rest" is many thousands of years long and has not ended yet. By the time it has ended all evil-doers will be dealt with and peace and paradise will be restored. Then it will be time for God to create new things. I am hoping that the dinosaurs will come back. Perhaps they were wiped out in Noah's flood.
 
thanks you nailed it - the catholics who were protectors of christianity clearly got it wrong with the bible when they have 73 books - why did they mess with the bible - it took them to the 16th century reformation to get it right? awfully long time.

It may be because certain things that were written in those extra books, commonly called the Apocrypha, seemed to support catholic teachings. So they didn't want to reject them.

But there are many foolish superstitions, inaccuracies and falsehoods in the Apocrypha. The only Apocryphal books of real value are perhaps 1 and 2 Maccabees which contain good historical information. But they are not, and do not claim to be, inspired by God. And never do the NT writers quote from the Apocrypha.

Indeed the last verses of deuteronomy have been added God knows what else has been added and taken out.

These are clear problems.

I don't see why there are problems. A number of books in the Bible are the combination of more than one writer. And I have read commentary that says that the words in the Qur'an: "So Blessed be Allah the Best of Creators" (Surah 23:14) were spoken, not by Muhammad, but by a man called Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh.
 
I don't see why there are problems. A number of books in the Bible are the combination of more than one writer. And I have read commentary that says that the words in the Qur'an: "So Blessed be Allah the Best of Creators" (Surah 23:14) were spoken, not by Muhammad, but by a man called Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh.

Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. was a man who it appears sort of flip flopped between Islam and apostacy. At the time he made his claim he had aposted to the Quayish.

If I understand correctly he was a scribe during the Medinah era but Surah 23 was revealed during the Makkah era. When Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. apostated he made his claim of having changed the words. But that does not seem possible as 42 other scribes had already written copied 23:14 as it stands today and that was prior to Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. being a scribe.

This rather lengthy but perhaps it will explain:

Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh: Where Is the Truth?

Muhammad Ghoniem & M S M Saifullah

© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance:

This article is meant to answer the claims put forward by the Christian missionaries.

The author of that article claims that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh, one of the scribes of the Prophet Muhammad(P), has contributed to the Qur'ânic text. Let us examine the references used by the author to support his claims and sort out his arguments in the light of famous Islamic resources.

The author of the criticism says:

Sarh left Islam and lived in Mecca. Some time later, Muhammad and his army moved on Mecca and took it without a fight.

Then in the passage quoted from the translation of Sîrat Rasulillah, he went on saying about Ibn Abî Sarh:

then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca]

He also reported from al-Baidawî commenting on the the verse 6:93 that the reason that triggered apostasy of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh was the revelation of the verse 23:12. The following is the translation of Baidawî's report proposed by the critic:

'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him" refers to 'Abdullah Ibn Sâd Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God's messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, "We created man of an extraction of clay" was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), 'Abdullah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The Prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." 'Abdullah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said."

The above claim can be summed up as follows: cAbdullâh was one of the scribes of the Prophet(P). Upon the revelation of the verse 23:12 and his anticipation on the end of the verse 23:14, he thought that he received the revelation as much as the Prophet(P) and he doubted in the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(P). Therefore, he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca] where he sought refuge.

Apostacy of Ibn Sarh

In the beginning of our study, we have to determine whether he apostatized before the Hijrah, i.e., in Mecca or after the hijrah, i.e., in Medina. The author of the criticism says that cAbdullâh returned to Quraysh [Mecca] and the word he put between [ ] implies that he returned to Mecca.

As a matter of fact, there is an entire science dedicated to the study of the life of the companions of the Prophet and the later generations of Muslims who were involved in the transmission of hadîth. This science is called cIlm al-Rijâl (i.e., the Science of the Folk). One of the biggest references in that field is Usûd Ulghâbah fi Ma'rifat Is-Sahâbah by Ibn al-Athîr. In the entry concerning cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh we find the following:

The above excerpt reads:

He converted to Islam before the conquest of Mecca and immigrated to the Prophet(P) [i.e. in Medina]. He used to record the revelation for the Prophet(P) before he apostatized and went back to Mecca. Then he told Quraysh: 'I used to orient Muhammad wherever I willed, he dictated to me "All-Powerful All-Wise" and I suggest "All Knowing All-Wise" so he would say: "Yes, it is all the same."[1]

From the above quotations of Usûd Ulghâbah, no doubt remains concerning the conversion of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh: he embraced Islam after the Hijrah and joined the Muslims in Medina. Thus, his apostasy occurred later which means it occurred in Medina.

cUlûm al-Qur'ân & Revelation

The "Science of Qur'ân" (in Arabic cUlûm al-Qur'ân) has fortunately conveyed lots of valuable details about the revelation of the Holy Qur'ân including the reason of the revelation (in Arabic Asbâb un-Nuzûl which is usually a certain event that motivated the revelation of some verses of the Qur'ân) and even the places where such and such verse or chapter of the Qur'ân were revealed to the Prophet(P). Note that the verses revealed in Mecca are called Meccan verses and the ones revealed in Medina are called Medinite verses. The main reference used in this article as to cUlûm al-Qur'ân is Al-Itqân fî cUlûm il-Qur'ân by Jalaluddîn al-Suyûtî.

Concerning Chapter 6 (from which the verse 6:93 is quoted), many reports support the fact that it was entirely revealed in Mecca. They also go on saying that this Chapter was escorted by 70,000 angels when Gabriel carried it down to the Prophet(P). Refer to Al-Itqân, Section 13: What was revealed scattered and what was revealed in one unit,[2]. One may also refer to Al-Itqân, Section 14: What was revealed with an escort and what was revealed alone[3]. Consequently, the opinion the verse 6:93 addressed cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh falls flat on its face. Many commentators convey reports that the revelation of the verse 6:93 addressed Musaylamah al-Kadhdhâb of al-Yamâmah and al-'Ansy of Yemen, both of them having claimed prophethood at that time.

For the sake of completeness, we will quote some more information given in Al-Itqân. According to Ibn as-Salâh in his Fâtawi:

The report that conveys the revelation of Chapter 6 entirely in one unit was given from the way of Ubayy Ibn Ka'b, it is weak in its isnâd (i.e. the chain of narration), and I have never seen a trustful (Sahih) isnâd for this tradition. Many traditions even said the contrary i.e. several verses of Chapter 6 were revealed later in Medina. They differed on the number of these verses whether they are 3 or 6 or some other number, and God knows best.[4]

So, some reports concerning Chapter 6 classify several verses as Medinite verses. These reports differed on the number of verses: a report on the authority of Ibn cAbbas excludes 3 verses (6:151 to 6:153), others say 6 verses (the previous ones + 6:91 + 6:93 & 6:94- they also say that the last two verses concern Musaylamah). Other reports exclude two verses only, for example 6:20 & 6:114. They also differ on Asbâb un-Nuzûl of the verses excluded as they either concern Musaylamah or a Jewish Rabbi of Medina or other reasons. So, not withstanding what is said in the previous paragraph, we will not close the case yet because of the slight doubt about Asbâb un-Nuzûl of verse 6:93.

According to the critic, the revelation of verse 23:12 and the amazed anticipation of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh on the end of verse 23:14 triggered his apostasy. Many books about the cUlûm al-Qur'ân have made an accurate classification of the Chapters and verses that were revealed in Mecca (those are called Meccan verses or Chapters), and the ones revealed in Medina (those are called Medinite). According to Al-Itqân, we learn that the full Chapter 23 (i.e., Sûrat al-Mu'minûn) is Meccan. Refer to pages 17-21 where many reports confirm the revelation of Chapter 23 in Mecca with no exception of any single verse.[5] Obviously, this report quoted from al-Baidawi is a gross fabrication since cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh embraced Islam after the revelation of Chapter 23. When we add to the above the fact that the full quotation from al-Baidawî was not put forward by the critic even when we asked for it, and given the fact that the reports are stated without the chains of transmission, the authentication of such a report is impossible. Moreover, a comparison to other commentaries of the Qur'ân (such as the commentaries of al-Qurtubî[6] and at-Tabarî[7]) mentioning the same report provide disrupted chains of transmission. That is why the claim of the critic based on the report of al-Baidawî looses conclusively all its value.

What Does Sirah Of al-cIraqî Actually Say?

Now let us look into the argument quoted from Is the Qur'ân Infallible? by cAbdullâh cAbd al-Fad.

The translation provided by the critic is:

The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. 'Abdullah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Qurai****e among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam. He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'All-Powerful, All-Wise' [the critic has wrongly translated 'Aziz by Most-High which is in Arabic 'Aliyy, it seems that he confused it with the previous word 'Alayya which means "to me"], and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'. On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'" So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him."

The rest of the English translation go further than what is stated in Arabic, so we will not quote it here. However, it is available at the original site.

The above argument is presented by the critic as a "quotation from as-Sîrah by al-'Iraqî". First of all, there are many people by the name of al-'Iraqî but the author does not say which al-cIraqî is mentioned here. Fortunately, God guided us to the source of this claim: Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah by al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî. In fact, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî has wrote the Sîrah in a piece of poetry of 1000 verse called Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah. Here is the relevant quotation:[8]
In the first verse of the above quotation (i.e. verse 780 in the poem), al-Hâfidh al-'Iraqî starts by saying that the scribes of the Prophet(P) were 42. Obviously, this detail links Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah to the argument stated by the critic. The above quotation consists of twelve verses mentioning various scribes of the Holy Qur'ân among the most known. cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh is not mentioned yet. In the verse 786, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî says:

And I added from various accounts on Sîrah a lot of people, it is for you to verify and check.

This means clearly that not all that is mentioned is to be taken blindly. Al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî is making a simple compilation of what he found leaving the verification for the reader. Then al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî goes on with his list:
In verses 796 to 798, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî says:

They mentioned three who wrote [for the Prophet] and apostatized: Ibn Abî Sarh and Ibn Khatal and another one whose name is unknown. No one of them returned to the religion [Islam] except Ibn Abî Sarh while the others strayed from the right path.

A minimum of objectivity is enough to understand that al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî does not back up such claims. He is merely reporting accounts and asks the people interested in them to take upon themselves the burden of verification.

When we give a second look to the argument of the critic, we see clearly that he is putting words in the mouth of al-cIraqî. He is using the passage al-cIraqî himself doubts in the tone of established facts. This is called twisting facts to serve one's goal. It has nothing to do with objectivity, let alone the claimed honesty or the quest of the Truth. Al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî in his Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah does not assert for sure that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh was a scribe of the Prophet(P). He also states clearly that the scribes who apostatized had gone astray. Therefore, he cannot contradict himself by saying what the critic is putting in his mouth. Consequently, in the absence of the source of such claims, we dismiss this argument unless the critic provides us with its source stated fully and correctly.

Discussion

1) What do we know about cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh?

He embraced Islam after the Hijrah while Muslims were living in Medina. We don't know the year exactly. He probably had the opportunity to write for the Prophet(P). He apostatized but the reason stated in many accounts (i.e. verse 23:12) is not consistent because it goes against many established reports in the cUlûm al-Qur'ân. He returned to Islam and was a good Muslim. Indeed, here is what is said about him quoted in the commentary of al-Qurtubî[9]:

For the convenience of our non-Arabic speaking audience, the full translation to English of the above report is also available.

In the above quotation, we read a similar report to Baidawî's. However, the report gives more details about cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh. Indeed, the report says:

According to Abû Omar, "cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh converted back to Islam during the conquest of Mecca and his Islam was fine, and later, his behavior was beyond reproach. He was among the wise and the noble from Quraysh, and was the knight of Banî 'Aamir Ibn Lu'ayy was respected among them. Later, 'Uthmân named him to govern Egypt in the year 25 H. He conquered Africa in the year 27 H and conquered Nuba in the year 31 H and he was the one who signed with the Nubites the armistice that is still valid today. He defeated the Romans in the battle of as-Sawaary in the year 34 H. When he returned from his advent, he was prevented from entering al-Fustât [the capital of Egypt], so he went to 'Asqalân where he lived until the murder of cUthmân(R). It was also said: he lived in Ramlah until he died away from the turmoil. And he prayed Allah saying: "O Allah make the prayer of subh the last of my deeds. So he performed wudu and prayed; he read Surat al-Fâtihah and al-'Aadiyât in the first rak'ah and read al-Fâtihah and another sûrah in the second rak'ah and made salâm on his right and died before he made salâm on the left side. All this report was conveyed by Yazîd Ibn Abî Habîb and others. He didn't pledge allegiance to cAlî nor to Mu'âwiyah (RR). His death was before the people agreed on Mu'âwiyah. It was also said that he died in Africa, but the correct is that he died in 'Asqalân in the year 36 H or 37 H and it was rather said 36 H.

In a nutshell, Ibn Abî Sarh embraced Islam after the Muslims had immigrated to Medina. He took the trouble to migrate to Medina where he became one of the scribes of the Prophet. For an unknown reason, he apostatized and went back to Mecca. He is supposed to have told the Meccans that he changed the Qur'ân according to his own will. This seems to be very predictable for someone in his situation seeking the favours of the Meccans whom he betrayed not a long time before. Then the above report states what is reported in Sîrat Rasulillah and in at-Tabaqât al-Kabîr as well: cAbdullâh was among the bunch that had to be executed but he could benefit of cUthmân's intercession and he kept his life safe. Though the beginning of his Islam was unstable (he migrated then apostatized then converted back to Islam in a very short time), he became a good Muslim and was even made the commander of Muslim troops. A report conveyed by 'Ikrimah in the commentary of at-Tabarî about verse 6:93 says that

'Abdullah Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh converted back to Islam before the conquest of Mecca by the Prophet(P).[10]

This means that he converted back to Islam willingly without the shadow of any pressure. Of course, like all the reports involved in this case, the transmission of this report is disrupted.

2) Did cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh contribute to the Qur'ân?

There is no factual proof for such a horrendous claim. The claim about Chapter 23 proved to be a fabrication because it was revealed before cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh became a Muslim. If we take into account the most admitted opinion among the Qur'ânic scholars, the entirety of Chapter 6 is Meccan. Consequently, the verse 6:93 is not revealed in regard of Ibn Abî Sarh but rather in regard of Musaylamah and al-'Ansy and more generally in regard of anyone who claims prophethood falsely.

Moreover, if the scribes were allowed to contribute to the Qur'ân, how can the critic explain that among the 42 scribes there is only one (cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh) who was bothered about it? Didn't the others feel uneasy about such a thing if it ever happened?

Of course, it is out of the question that the Prophet of God(P) allow such contribution because it is claimed many times in the Qur'ân that the Holy Book is dictated upon revelation and any contribution to it must be of divine inspiration.

3) The author of the criticism asks:

If this story about Sarh were a fabrication, why did so many early Muslim writers document it? Certainly devout Muslims would not document a lie that serves to undermine their faith.

This is the best question raised in the whole argument. Its answer is implied in the quotation of al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî in his Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah. Many of the early writers were concerned by the compilation only. Fearing that the material available could be lost, they collected whatever reports they could find without authenticating them. They left the authentication process to the following generations as it is clearly stated in the following excerpt of Alfiyyat us-Sirat in-Nabawiyyah by al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî:

In the verses 5 & 6, he says:

Let the seeker of knowledge know that Sîrah collects every account whether true or false. But the intention is to mention all that is conveyed in the books of Sîrah regardless of the isnaad. (i.e., the authenticity of the chains of narration)

A devout Muslim does not need to twist the facts to protect his faith especially when an authentication process existed even in the early stages of Islam. A whole Science is concerned with the reliability of the narrators based on their life and their moral values. That is why many people could compile many reports leaving the authentication procedure to the ones who followed them. In reality, if all the early scholars cared about authenticating every report they heard of, a lot of the material available today would be lost.

Unlike Muslims, some people, unaware of the Science of Hadîth and the "Knowledge of the Folk" when venturing into the Islamic references alone without a teacher, encounter great hardship digesting all the material available. Others, more wicked, use the same characteristic of the early references to lead innocent people astray. But, with God's help and protection, their dark plans are always unveiled. As for the author of the critic, we would rather refrain from classifying him in either category. The readership may judge him and only God can tell what his real intentions are.

4) If cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh really deserved to be executed according to a Law, why did the Prophet(P) accept the intercession of cUthmân?

This is a trick question. However, it also shows that the author of the criticism is either ignorant in the field of Islamic Law or his goal is to deceive as many people as he can. In terms of Islamic Law, there are two categories of crimes. The ones named by God (such as murder, theft, fornication etc.) to which He defined the proper punishment "Hudood"(the singular is 'Hadd'). And the ones not named by God, their evaluation and their punishment (called ta'dhîr) are left for the judgment of the sovereign. Provided that the reports of Sîrat Rasulillah and at-Tabaqât al-Kabîr are correct, the case of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh is simply about the sovereign (Prophet Muhammad(P)) making a decree against a criminal (cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh) then upon the intercession of a third party (cUthmân Ibn 'Affân), the sovereign agrees to give amnesty to the criminal. Given that the punishment is originally left to the sovereign, a subsequent change in the judgment especially forgiveness cannot be criticized.

Conclusions

After the above study, the claims that the Holy Qur'ân has been tainted by Ibn Abî Sarh do not hold water. One thing is sure. We do not know a lot about the beginning of the faith of Ibn Abî Sarh. It was apparently unstable. However, later, he converted back to Islam and his faith was beyond reproach. The question raised about the change in the judgment concerning Ibn Abî Sarh denotes of real ignorance of the Islamic Law or a crooked intention of deception. If the goal behind that criticism was the quest of the Truth, then by God's will the above elaboration is likely to be enough for the author of the criticism to retract it.

SOURCE
 
Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. was a man who it appears sort of flip flopped between Islam and apostacy. At the time he made his claim he had aposted to the Quayish.

If I understand correctly he was a scribe during the Medinah era but Surah 23 was revealed during the Makkah era. When Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. apostated he made his claim of having changed the words. But that does not seem possible as 42 other scribes had already written copied 23:14 as it stands today and that was prior to Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. being a scribe.

This rather lengthy but perhaps it will explain:



SOURCE

Thank you Woodrow. I now see that there seems to be a bit of a hornet's nest of controversy here. It doesn't concern me (or the point I was making) very much so I don't want to pursue this very far. But don't you find it strange that such a number of early commentators, devout Muslims and learned men, would claim that Abdullah did speak the words of Surah 23:14 if it were not true? Why would they say such a thing?
 
Thank you Woodrow. I now see that there seems to be a bit of a hornet's nest of controversy here. It doesn't concern me (or the point I was making) very much so I don't want to pursue this very far. But don't you find it strange that such a number of early commentators, devout Muslims and learned men, would claim that Abdullah did speak the words of Surah 23:14 if it were not true? Why would they say such a thing?

For the same reason , devout Christians and learned men claim that Jesus(as) was crucified on a cross. People are human and can only use the information they have and have verified to their satisfaction.
 
Did you not find it mindboggling that one of the most beloved bible stories by christians was actually fabricated? The story is especially loved by christians who are so fond of sinning, using it as examples that sinning is ok and shouldnt be punished. Hence the downward spiral of christianity.


Hi Naidamar! thanks for this input as I went and searched for some info about that passage!

First, I would like to point out that it is not an example that sinning is ok and shouldn't be punished. It shows how much we should love everyone, even the sinners. Even Jesus wouldn't judge her and instead gave her a second chance.

Second, the evidence for or against the text. I'll just point out that in this age of (mis)information and instant internet knowledge, it is very easy to find books, opinions and articles to prove a point. That would be like me saying "Islam only promotes violence" and then look in the Qu'ran, ahadith and all over the internet to prove my point. That would be very hypocritical of me to do so, just like some terrorists pluck out some verses from the Qu'ran to "justify" their acts, without taking into account the rest of the evidence.

I read some articles about the passage we are talking about and the evidence clearly shows that the P66 scribe knew about the omission of the passage by marking it. The same thing happened in the Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. To me it is an indication that the scribes knew there was a missing part part in the text they were copying. The only thing that can be actually proved is that, yes, the passage is missing and even the scribe of the oldest copy knew about it!

Sorry but since the day you massively copied-cut a huge part of a garbage website like answering christianity, to answer me right after I wrote that I wouldn't do the opposite, I take your posts and opinions with a lot of caution.

What I would like to though is if anyone could offer the counter to that passage from the Qu'ran or hadith.

Thanks all, and no hard feelings Naidamar, your points are valid and your questions sound, the methodology is what I find lacking.
 
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It may be because certain things that were written in those extra books, commonly called the Apocrypha, seemed to support catholic teachings. So they didn't want to reject them.

But there are many foolish superstitions, inaccuracies and falsehoods in the Apocrypha. The only Apocryphal books of real value are perhaps 1 and 2 Maccabees which contain good historical information. But they are not, and do not claim to be, inspired by God. And never do the NT writers quote from the Apocrypha.



I don't see why there are problems. A number of books in the Bible are the combination of more than one writer. And I have read commentary that says that the words in the Qur'an: "So Blessed be Allah the Best of Creators" (Surah 23:14) were spoken, not by Muhammad, but by a man called Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh.

On your first point - It still stands and and now I have learnt that Othrodox also have a different canons as well - do the catholics and the orthodox see these books as fabrications - if they did they woudlnt have added them in there canon - its foolish - only after the 16th century did this become an issue.

On your last point thats like me quoting the apocrypha and saying that its mainstream christian teachings? I'm talking about actually accpeted books by the catholics and the Orthodox and rejected by the Protestants.

Indeed the problem of deautoronmy still stands - its a clear cut add on - as Moses pbuh clearly couldnt be talking about his death before - even you accept that it was written later and not by Moses pbuh himself.
 
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Indeed the problem of deautoronmy still stands - its a clear cut add on - as Moses pbuh clearly couldnt be talking about his death before - even you accept that it was written later and not by Moses pbuh himself.

You said: "Indeed the last verses of deuteronomy have been added God knows what else has been added and taken out."

You are making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm afraid. As I said, many books of the Bible were written by more than one writer. The book of 1 Samuel could not have been written by Samuel alone because 1 Samuel 25:1 states: "In time Samuel died". But that doesn't mean that the book has been corrupted. It just means that there was more than one writer.

2 Timothy 3:16 says: "All scripture is inspired of God" and that surely includes the whole of Deuteronomy together with the last 8 verses. Jesus himself quoted from Deuteronomy three times when rebuking Satan (Luke 4:1-12).

On your first point - It still stands and and now I have learnt that Othrodox also have a different canons as well - do the catholics and the orthodox see these books as fabrications - if they did they woudlnt have added them in there canon - its foolish - only after the 16th century did this become an issue.

I don't quite understand what you are telling me here. What are these different canons that the "Orthodox" have?
 

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