Are these allegations true? (Genuine question.)

[aamirsaab]

I like building bridges, I like building bridges. Wooooyeah!

[snip]...For example, aamirsaab if what you say is true then I am indeed heartened.

I have a habit of getting that reaction from people. Blessing not a curse .

How representative do you think what you describe is of all Islam? I mean, are the accusations just total fabrications, or do they apply to only certain parts of the world or what? (I appreciate that you've given me answers largely to do with the Qu'ran and I'm now asking about various cultures.)

The thing is I can only go on what I have seen/experienced so I cannot and do not speak for every muslim on this planet (that is worthy of an entire new thread). But I will attempt an answer. From my experiences the stuff I have stated in my previous post stands true - I know of atleast 250 or so muslims who pretty much follow Islam the way I and my family does. Though I also stated and do readily admit that not every muslim interprets the teachings in the appropriate way (i.e. one that promotes equity amongst all).

So the accusations are kinda half and half in regards to being fabrications; for some it is merely fabrication and for others it is not - the exact amount I could not tell you though. However, I do have relatives in other cultures and those also have the same understanding of Islam as I do (truth be told, it was I who adopted the understanding from them).

I guess it's kind of a mixture between culture and one's own interpretation.
I myself just go into situations with the understanding that Islam promotes equity no matter the gender, race or colour and I know for a fact that how I am with people (in general) IS part of the teachings of Islam and that I'm not only fulfilling my duties as a muslim, but as a human being. It's all good

I hope I provided you with an answer.

 

[glo]

lol respected Glo, i never get this feeling, infact i get happy and think, time to tell someone else the TRUTH!!

That's a very admirable attitude, brother.
Perhaps I am getting to old and tired to have that kind of energy ...

may Allah guide one and all Ameen!

Amen to that! May He indeed guide us all, and lead us in His true ways ...

Peace

 

[Malaikah]

Indeed. I believe the verse you are refering to actually has different interpretations, one of them being that it doesn't mean literally hit them. Unfortunately not everyone who reads that verse actually understands it properly.

I am just curious, what basis does this opinion have? Because the Quran is meant to be taken literally unless their is a reason not to, so for them to say that it does not to hit them, then there must be an edivence for that.

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[aamirsaab]

I am just curious, what basis does this opinion have? Because the Quran is meant to be taken literally unless their is a reason not to, so for them to say that it does not to hit them, then there must be an edivence for that.

Looking forward to your reply.

Ah sorry that was my mistake. I meant that the ''beat'' part of that verse is not to be taken literally (i.e. you don't attack your wife with a barge pole or something stupid like that) - the interpretation that I have been taught is you basically touch your wife i.e. hand on their shoulder type of thing.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Because the Quran is meant to be taken literally unless their is a reason not to, .

to take it literally many times means take it out of context tho... like if you just took the verse i quoted out of context at face value your taking it way to literally thus misleading lots of people.

but in the case of the hitting, im sure theres a story behind it, and i wish i knew what it was...

 

[Umar001]

I don't think there's time for me to try answer the points plus many are better than I at this, I'm sure you will see them scattered through the forum.

I will say though, when we see such topics arise, what I see, is that they are emotional topics, 'wife beating' that alone is sure to send alot of people's heart racing, but when one does look at it in its totality, they'd be hard pressed to refer to it as wife beating. Or the issue of pedophilia, as soon as someone hears '9 year old' their hair raises on ends, it's the emotional side of us, which happens to a non muslim as well as a Muslim when they hear 9 year old wife. But in my experience it has been more accepted once explained. The issue of Jihad, again is a similar matter.

That's something I try to bare in mind when speaking on such topics.

 

[Basirah]

You see this was actually during a war in which the jews betrayed the muslims, so naturally the general of the muslim army feared for the muslims being slaughtered and thus called for the traitors to be executed.

Can you explain to me how the treaty was signed? Please check out Abi Dawud. Thanks in advance.

 

[Malaikah]

Ah sorry that was my mistake. I meant that the ''beat'' part of that verse is not to be taken literally (i.e. you don't attack your wife with a barge pole or something stupid like that) - the interpretation that I have been taught is you basically touch your wife i.e. hand on their shoulder type of thing.

Oh, right, I get you now.

to take it literally many times means take it out of context tho... like if you just took the verse i quoted out of context at face value your taking it way to literally thus misleading lots of people.

but in the case of the hitting, im sure theres a story behind it, and i wish i knew what it was...

Are you sure? :? I thought being taken literally takes into account the context too?

Also, I checked ibn kathirs tafsir and no story is mentioned.

 

[asadxyz]

The Ayah which is usually referred to for "beating or wives " is as follows :
وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنّ َ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ

As for women of whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, and remain apart from them in beds, and beat them. (4:34)​

First of all we should know background of Islamic society. Then we will be able to understand the exact meaning of this Ayah.

Islam believes in "Family unit" in which there is must be harmony and understanding so that the children which are the future asset of the Islamic Umma, are grown up in a conducive atmosphere. This atmosphere is essential for the psychological and moral health of the children.
Now coming back to Ayah ,let me say there are two important words in it
Nashooz = نشوزWazriboohunna = واضربوهن
Unless we exactly understand these words we will not be able to conceive the exacting message which this ayah wants to convey;
Nashooz = نشوز

Mufradaat Ul Quran by Imam Raghib Isfahaani .
This word has been derived from this root
- نشز=النشز: المرتفع من الأرض-
Literal meaning is rising from the Earth .Now coming to the meaning in the Ayah. In Arabic it is said ;
- نشزت المرأة = The woman became Recalcitrant
-

وقوله تعالى: {واللآتي تخافون نشوزهن} <النساء/34> ونشوز المرأة: بغضها لزوجها ورفع نفسها عن طاعته، وعينها عنه إلى غيره،
Hatred for the husband,became disobedient and neglecting him and looking to anyone else.
This attitude clearly indicates the immoral and rebellious on the part of the wife.
Now what is the remedy??

Remedy No 1:
Divorce her right away: Is this correct attitude that without an attempt to treat the disease you amputate the limb? I do not think it is considered to be a rational approach.
Remedy No 2:
Involve the Court and Society: Naturally in this attempt dignity and honor which Islam has given to woman is compromised .Her reputation is going to be affected.So this is also not very much acceptable.
Remedy No : 3
Take some remedial steps in the premises of the house , so that problem is solved without letting others know So here comes the steps which the Quran has mentioned.
Firstly =
Make her understand with love and examples
Secondly:
If the first fails then you can leave the bed rooms
Thirdly: = واضربوهن

Now the question is what is ضرب
According to محيط المحيط
الضرب= ايقاع الشئ علي الشئ وباقى المعاني متفرع منه
Alzarab = Dropping of anything on another thing. Rest of meanings branch from this concept.

According to AlMawrid (Arabic to English Dictionary)
ضرب = To beat ,strike, hit; to knock punch; to slap.flap; to TAP
Now we need to decide which meaning to adopt. For it we need to interpret it in the light of teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunna.
The Holy Quran says :
وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ(17:70)
It is a favour that We have honoured the sons(all off springs of ) Adam.
The Holy Prophet (PBUH) explained it very nicely

«وَاتَّقُوا اللهَ فِي النِّسَاءِ، فَإِنَّهُنَّ عِنْدَكُمْ عَوَانٍ، وَلَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَنْ لَا يُوطِئْنَ فُرُشَكُمْ أَحَدًا تَكْرَهُونَهُ،فَإِنْ فَعَلْنَ ذَلِكَ فَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ضَرْبًا غَيْرَ مُبَرِحٍ، وَلَهُنَّ عَلَيْكُمْ رِزْقُهُنَّ وَكِسْوَتُهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوف»
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them THAT THEY DO NOT ALLOW ANY PERSON WHOM YOU DISLIKE TO STEP ON YOUR MAT. However, if they do that, you are allowed to DISCIPLINE THEM LIGHTLY. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.)
(Ibne kathir)
So in the light of these clarifications it can be said very confidently that word ضرب does not means "Beating or striking '. Rather it means "tapping".
Now the question is what is the use of this "tapping"? Will it correct the situation? The answer is may be or may not be. Because it is just a toke of resentment or anger or warning for the wife that her action is detrimental for the family and it should be rectified.

 

[جوري]

I'm just going to re-post this there so you can read it back to yourself and see how immature it is.

If all you feel you can manage is to be presumptuous and offensive then why not just keep your thoughts to yourself? I have not come here with some petty hope of 'making Muslims feel uncomfortable' or something. I have just read some things that trouble me, and I would like to hear it from 'the horse's mouth' as it were, before I come to any conclusions. Reading the OP (and charitably) would have helped.
.

I share my thoughts for the same reasons you share yours ( and besides it is a public forum!)... in fact when you come asking stereotypical questions no matter how genuine, I too form a stereotypical ideas of you no matter how genuine... I am not at all uncomfortable, I chose not to debate simply because there is a search button on the forum that will enable you to have an in depth analysis of almost any topic well before rehashing it. I wish you well on your endeavors -- but I won't descend into a cyber squabble with you..
have a good one!

By the very nature of this forum, newcomers will come with their individual questions ... some of which will be repeated over and over.
(Believe me, I feel like that when with every thread that is started about the trinity ... you get that sinking feeling ... )

It looks to me like Broken Arrow is asking some genuine questions, and we should give him a chance to do so, and reply with patience and kindness.

I think you are very wise, Ambrosia - if someone is not in the right frame of mind to enter discussions with patience and kindness, it may be better to stay out of it.

Welcome, Broken Arrow!
I hope you enjoy your stay here, and find some answers to your questions.

Peace

indeed and I didn't enter into the discussion, I added my two cents on what I thought of the topic and stayed out of it..

peace!

 

[Broken Arrow]

If you read history of islam you may find that during the caliphate of Umar ibn Al-Khattab the ummah had expanded far to the east and west submitting all the countries to islam, this happened when muslims all over where being oppressed and could not follow their religion properly, they were forced to either hide their faith or follow the religion of the country in which they abided so the muslims had no choice but to spread islam

Do you mean that Muslims were being oppressed in Syria, Egypt, Palestine, Mesopotamia etc before those countries were invaded? I was under the impression that it was more just a straightforward expansionist campaign? (In which, I hasten to add, Umar ibn Al-Khattab would only be the same as many rulers throughout world history.)

This was only to stop oppression and spread the message, you see the people were given a choice, they could either pay the jizya (which is a tax which goes COMPLETELY to the poor and needy and only the rich may pay this, and try to understand that this jizya goes even to non-muslims in all fairness, this was a plan from Allah to stop world hunger if only the people would submit) and if the people did not pay jizya then they must be prepared to fight!

But this itself seems somewhat oppressive. I understand that it is in the name of a noble cause, but firstly, the jizya, if I remember correctly, was only levied on non-Muslims, and plus, although charity is obviously a good thing, 'give charity or be prepared to fight' doesn't seem particularly fair. I appreciate that the jizya was more a tax to allow non-Muslims to live in Muslim countries and practice their own religion and still enjoy the protection of the state. By the standards of much of history this is very reasonable, but by today's standards (or at least mine, I don't know about anybody else) a group of people shouldn't have to pay any tax that other ordinary citizens don't have to pay, on the basis of buying freedom to practice their religion.

As for the women issue, I accept that behaviour seems to vary greatly all over the Islamic world. There certainly are at least reports of beatings justified with scripture, but if you would tell me that this is contrary to Islam then I am happy and glad to believe you. (If it is indeed true.) Nevertheless, there are still just some things that I find hard to swallow, such as the idea that a wife can be 'disobedient'.

just that attitude, to think someone can be Muslim by culture just goes to show that she doesn't understand what it means to be Muslim at all.

But maybe she was just referring to the fact that, although she is now an atheist, she is 'demographically Muslim' ie, born to a Muslim family, in a Muslim country, imbued with Muslim moral values (originally, lol) and so on. (Not that I would want to start grouping people 'demographically'.)

I am not really sure what you mean here.

If you mean that you are getting the impression that Islam gives high priority to the function of the family, then yes that is indeed the case.

What I mean is that what appears, practically, to work out best, is not always best, or right. Yes, the functioning of the family is very important, I would never disagree, but I don't think that disagreements between wife and husband should be brushed over or subdued for the sake of the stability of the family. First of all, I think that in the long run, this could lead to festering, underlying tension, and secondly, I just don't think its right, to push your feelings under for the sake of something else. They need to be aired!

I will say though, when we see such topics arise, what I see, is that they are emotional topics, 'wife beating' that alone is sure to send alot of people's heart racing, but when one does look at it in its totality, they'd be hard pressed to refer to it as wife beating. Or the issue of pedophilia, as soon as someone hears '9 year old' their hair raises on ends, it's the emotional side of us, which happens to a non muslim as well as a Muslim when they hear 9 year old wife. But in my experience it has been more accepted once explained. The issue of Jihad, again is a similar matter.

That's something I try to bare in mind when speaking on such topics.

Sound advice.

 

[Dionysus]

But why not? If the alternative is divorce? The purpose of him hitting her (lightly) is a last resort effort to get the wife to come back to her senses, in a case where the alternative would be divorce, and the negative consequences of divorce would be much worse than that of a light hit.

Does that go both ways?

 

[Malaikah]

You mean the hit? No, I already explained that a woman can't hit her husband because of the possibility he might back- and harder.

 

[Dionysus]

You mean the hit? No, I already explained that a woman can't hit her husband because of the possibility he might back- and harder.

If I'm understanding this right. The woman is prohibited form doing something that is ok (extreme situation understood) for a man to do because of what the man might do back?

With that logic, shouldn't the man also be prohibited from this action because the woman might stab him in return?


My personal stance is (like anyone cares)... If you have enough ass to hit, you have enough ass to be hit. But that's just the redneck in me.

 

[Malaikah]

:?

I doubt being stabbed back is anywhere near as likely as the man hitting back.

 

[asadxyz]

Does that go both ways?

Peace/
The answer is yes but modus operandi is different.
Woman being physically weak cannot do this.Naturally she needs the help of someone more powerful who can stop man from going astray.Now islamic state will come for help.She will complain to state about the attitude of her husband and state will address the issue.There are examples that wives complained to the Holy Prophet :arabic5: against the the attitude of their husbands.Sura Mujaadila is one example.
Nashooz is not acceptible in the family no,matter it is from the wife or husband.
Hope it helps.

 

[Dionysus]

:?

I doubt being stabbed back is anywhere near as likely as the man hitting back.

Stabbed, kicked, bit, punched, whatever... It is possible, just like it is possible that the man will hit her back.

It's human nature to attack when being attacked.

I apologize for my ignorance, this just seems one sided.

 

[Dionysus]

Peace/
The answer is yes but modus operandi is different.
Woman being physically weak cannot do this.Naturally she needs the help of someone more powerful who can stop man from going astray.Now islamic state will come for help.She will complain to state about the attitude of her husband and state will address the issue.There are examples that wives complained to the Holy Prophet :arabic5: against the the attitude of their husbands.Sura Mujaadila is one example.
Nashooz is not acceptible in the family no,matter it is from the wife or husband.
Hope it helps.

Now that makes more sence. I understand the 'being weaker' logic. But I've seen some little women that I wouldn't want to tangle with (275lb man here).

I don't agree with this. I think no one should be allowed to assult another person for any reason other than defence. This doesn't make me right or wrong. Just my opinion.

Thank you for the answer.

 

[Malaikah]

But the husband isn't allowed to harm his wife. I think we already clarified it is only meant to be a light hit that doesn't cause harm.

 

[asadxyz]

But the husband isn't allowed to harm his wife. I think we already clarified it is only meant to be a light hit that doesn't cause harm.

You are absolutely right my sister but word "hit" is not correct.You can say it is "Tapping".
Hitting ,beating ,kicking are not correct translation for this aya.

Thirdly: = واضربوهن

Now the question is what is ضرب
According to محيط المحيط
الضرب= ايقاع الشئ علي الشئ وباقى المعاني متفرع منه
Alzarab = Dropping of anything on another thing. Rest of meanings branch from this concept.

According to AlMawrid (Arabic to English Dictionary)
ضرب = To beat ,strike, hit; to knock punch; to slap.flap; to TAP
Now we need to decide which meaning to adopt. For it we need to interpret it in the light of teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunna.
The Holy Quran says :
وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ(17:70)
It is a favour that We have honoured the sons(all off springs of ) Adam.
The Holy Prophet (PBUH) explained it very nicely

«وَاتَّقُوا اللهَ فِي النِّسَاءِ، فَإِنَّهُنَّ عِنْدَكُمْ عَوَانٍ، وَلَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَنْ لَا يُوطِئْنَ فُرُشَكُمْ أَحَدًا تَكْرَهُونَهُ،فَإِنْ فَعَلْنَ ذَلِكَ فَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ضَرْبًا غَيْرَ مُبَرِحٍ، وَلَهُنَّ عَلَيْكُمْ رِزْقُهُنَّ وَكِسْوَتُهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوف»
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them THAT THEY DO NOT ALLOW ANY PERSON WHOM YOU DISLIKE TO STEP ON YOUR MAT. However, if they do that, you are allowed to DISCIPLINE THEM LIGHTLY. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.)
(Ibne kathir)
So in the light of these clarifications it can be said very confidently that word ضرب does not means "Beating or striking '. Rather it means "tapping".

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