Are we gods?

[ummzayd]

If God wants to let His Lamb take the guilt for my sin, I am going to be very thankful and not bite the hand that is saving me. You see my guilt is so bad that there is no amount of good I can do to pay for it. Since God is just, He cannot let me go unpunished so He let His Lamb take it for me; otherwise, I could not be forgiven.

I don't know what terrible sins you have committed in your life, and I won't ask, but I would just pass on this hadith qudsi:

Allah the Almighty has said: O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.

 

[Redeemed]

typical smug Christian, telling us patronisingly 'you are loved' & 'I love you in Christ' etc. and yet unable to resist rubbing our noses in the 'fact' that you are 'saved' & we are not (as you see it).

also, you claimed that one difference between you & I, is that you as a Christian are more humble because you understand that you haven't earned your salvation, it was a gift from God that otherwise you as a miserable sinner could never attain. whereas I, Muslim, am in danger of pride and arrogance by believing that God told me I can get to Paradise by obeying Him.

can I just say, that humility doesn't exactly shine out of your posts. AND, you DO 'earn' your salvation by having faith in a blood-thirsty God unable to forgive sins at will? That is the deal, no?

so, your salvation has been earned (according to your creed).

I don't see how someone who lays down their life for a friend as being a bloodthirsty entity. And in a sense, I am receiving God's gift through an act of faith, if you call it earning it, I won't argue with you. But as I said before, we must come to God on His terms not our own or someone else's terms.

 

[Redeemed]

Question? "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness." Who is US, and what is OUR image? Just a thought, my friend brought this up, and I can't answer who US is or OUR is. Do you know?

I know God is never alone in heaven. He has created many angels and other creatures that we haven't seen, or He could have been talking to His Son. Nevertheless, I don't fully understand, but that doesn't mean God's word isn't true.:rollseyes

 

[ummzayd]

I don't see how someone who lays down their life for a friend as being a bloodthirsty entity.

so the doctrine of original sin & atonement by the blood of the christ is like 'someone laying down their life for a friend' is it?

either you have the intellect and understanding of a 3 year old or you think I do....

goodbye

 

[Keltoi]

so the doctrine of original sin & atonement by the blood of the christ is like 'someone laying down their life for a friend' is it?

either you have the intellect and understanding of a 3 year old or you think I do....

goodbye

In simplistic terms that description is not far off. It was an act of mercy. Of course Christ Jesus was much more than a "friend", but the emotions involved are similar. We as Christians believe that Christ's suffering was an act of love, which granted human beings forgiveness and a way to eternal life. Obviously it is more complicated than simply talking about a "friend", but the concept is not far off point.

 

[ummzayd]

In simplistic terms that description is not far off. It was an act of mercy. Of course Christ Jesus was much more than a "friend", but the emotions involved are similar. We as Christians believe that Christ's suffering was an act of love, which granted human beings forgiveness and a way to eternal life. Obviously it is more complicated than simply talking about a "friend", but the concept is not far off point.

the 'concept', as you put it, revolves around the fact that God DEMANDS the spilling of the blood of the innocent in order to forgive the sins of the guilty. that is what is unacceptable, and all your pretty talk about 'friends laying down their lives' is irrelevant.

so far no explanation for this has been forthcoming except 'we must accept God's terms' or 'well if God is going to sacrifice His lamb for me I'm not going to argue' or 'I don't understand it with my understanding' (and if you weren't referring to the concept here, alapiana, & you actually DO understand the logic, justice and good sense of the doctrine, please share that understanding with us).



I leave you with some bible quotes to ponder:

'In loving kindness I have taken delight, and not in sacrifice, and in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings'. Hosea 6:6

'Righteousness and judgement are more preferable to God than sacrifice' Proverbs 21:3

peace

 

[Keltoi]

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." (Hebrews 9:22)

Of course righteousness and judgement are more preferable to God than sacrifice, but as the Old Testament shows us, sacrifice was often the accepted method of achieving God's forgiveness for sin.

Sacrifice was God's way of teaching us the seriousness of sin, it was not an end in itself. Instead of snuffing out a person for sin or rebellion, God offered a way for the forgiveness of sins, the death of an animal instead of a person. A lamb or goat or bull was costly, teaching that sin is costly. The requirement of a blood sacrifice for sin was ultimately fulfilled in Christ, who is the sacrifice for our sins, once and for all. No further sacrifice can be made. Any subsequent sacrifice of an animal is an affront to God, suggesting that the sacrifice of Christ Jesus was not enough.

 

[Redeemed]

so the doctrine of original sin & atonement by the blood of the christ is like 'someone laying down their life for a friend' is it?

either you have the intellect and understanding of a 3 year old or you think I do....

goodbye

How would I or you have the intellect of a 3-year old because we see The Christ taking our punishment like a big brother? In other words, older brother takes blame so his little brother or sister doesn't get in trouble. Or are you trying to say a 3-year old child can understand this message??? Jesus did say you must receive the kingdom of heaven as a child in order to enter. To be blunt, the Jesus in the Koran is different than the one in the Bible. I don't know that Jesus, and I don't want to know him, because that Jesus is a false prophet. My Jesus loves me so much that He laid down His life so I could be right with God. That doesn't mean I can live a sinful life, but it does mean I am set free from sin. In other words, before I was a prisoner or slave to sin and had to do its biding, but now I have a choice. Finally, God is not mocked a person will reap what he/she sows.
You are loved

 

[Redeemed]

Yup, if you havnt faith , then it basically reads.

A plan was decreed from the dawn of time. Having created sinful man, God contrives to get himself whacked, as only the spilling of his own blood can save mankind from his own wrath and cleanse his sin, bearing in mind that he is all-merciful. Then throw in a ghost for good measure.:skeleton:

that is right it was decreed from before the foundation of the worlds that Christ would be the ransom for many.
You are loved

 

[barney]

that is right it was decreed from before the foundation of the worlds that Christ would be the ransom for many.
You are loved

Christians are great, theyre so warm n fuzzy.

Hugs right back at you.

 

[Balthasar21]

Question? "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness." Who is US, and what is OUR image? Just a thought, my friend brought this up, and I can't answer who US is or OUR is. Do you know?

( The Word Eloheem )

The Word Eloheem < Aramic > Means '' These Beings '' Or '' A Group Of Elohs '' Eloheems Are Angels Of '' El '' Or Messengers Of '' El Eloh '' Who Anu . They Are Physical Angelic Beings , Not Spooks Or Spirit Or Ghost . They Are A Host Of Beings That Do The Words Of '' El '' . While On The Planet Earth Under An Appointed Being , Then They Are Called '' El '' Who Under Al Or El . The Word '' Eloheem '' Is Found Throughout The Scroll Of Genesis And Is Falsely Translated As '' God '' The Name Eloheem Is Used For Both '' Agreeable And Disagreeable Beings And Even Humans As In .

Exodus 7;1 , When Yahuwa < Aramic > Told Moses That He Will Make Him An Eloheem For The Pharoh

 

[lilah]

The Bible says in Psalms 82 that you are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High. The Most High is Allah. If we are gods and children of the Most High, it shouldn't sound strange that God is a begetter and Jesus is His only Begotten Son. Muslims don't believe we are gods. And it is shirk to be partners with Allah (swt). Allah is the most High and none is like Him. Muslims believe the Bible/Gospel is not the original copy but still contains some truth. Whatever is accordance with the Qur'an is accepted and what is not is rejected. They believe that Allah does not beget nor is He begotten. It is the first 5 books of the Bible, the Psalms and the gospels, however, that Muslims pray that they must believe in, and if not, they are not following Allah's will. God’s word cannot be changed. Neither can the fact that Allah said, "Ye are gods." God made us in His image and likeness. Jesus said, “Is it not written in your law Ye are gods then why do you marvel that I say I am the Son of God?" I would like for Muslims to answer this question they conveniently don’t seem to believe. If you don't accept that Allah said, "You are gods," you are rejecting Allah's word. Muslims also believe The Bible has been changed a lot over time, but it has NOT change. There are just different translations, and some are better than others, but that is not to stop people from researching the original text in Hebrew and Greek. If you do, you will find that Allah said, “Ye are gods.” So don't think me strange or that I am presumptuous when I say that “I am a friend of God, and I know that I have eternal life,” but you are not sure you have it. The Bible was written according to Scripture so that we could know that we have salvation and that is only in His Son the only way to Allah according to the Scriptures. It is a good idea to look at and meditate on Psalm 82. I did and Allah showed me great and wonderful things that I know not. I am not trying to preach, but I am trying to scratch down deep enough to find the truth.


---End Quote---
Now your just starting to preach...

the injil, or the bible as it was first written is extinct, doesn't exist....gone
manipulated and changed by the hands of man.

Surah Baqarah
2:75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
....

2:79 So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

 

[Trumble]

You seem to have missed his rather important comment that

but that is not to stop people from researching the original text in Hebrew and Greek

OK, even the Greek (I don't know a lot about the Hebrew) isn't quite that simple there being two major 'versions' - the major difference being selection of passages rather than what the text actually says). But the faults or otherwise of the King James version, RSV or whatever as translations are irrelevant; neither part of the Bible was written in English.

Greek versions of the NT are widely available, and there are a surprisingly large (and increasing) number of people who learn Koine Greek to read them and other early Christian literature.

 

[lilah]

You seem to have missed his rather important comment that



OK, even the Greek (I don't know a lot about the Hebrew) isn't quite that simple there being two major 'versions' - the major difference being selection of passages rather than what the text actually says). But the faults or otherwise of the King James version, RSV or whatever as translations are irrelevant; neither part of the Bible was written in English.

the original greek (or hebrew) doesn't exist...you couldn't identify the original even if it did...which one is which...?

 

[Redeemed]

Christians are great, theyre so warm n fuzzy.

Hugs right back at you.

lol:laugh:

 

[Trumble]

the original greek (or hebrew) doesn't exist...you couldn't identify the original even if it did...which one is which...?

Agreed, but your reference was to the KJV and the RSV, not the Greek.

If you compare the KSV with its "grave defects" to the Revised version (American or otherwise) intended to correct them you will discover no significant theological differences in the message itself. Likewise (the Greek) between Westcott-Hort and the Textus Receptus. From (frequently) different manuscripts, while the precise text may differ what it actually says does not. As Christians don't believe the NT to be the direct Word of God in the way muslims consider the Qur'an to be, what differences there might be simply don't matter much; the message is the same. As the same message comes from different selections of manuscripts that's a decent indicator that it is the same as that offered by the 'originals'. How accurately those may have described actual events is, of course, a different question.

 

[lilah]

Agreed, but your reference was to the KJV and the RSV, not the Greek.

If you compare the KSV with its "grave defects" to the Revised version (American or otherwise) intended to correct them you will discover no significant theological differences in the message itself. Likewise (the Greek) between Westcott-Hort and the Textus Receptus. From (frequently) different manuscripts, while the precise text may differ what it actually says does not. As Christians don't believe the NT to be the direct Word of God in the way muslims consider the Qur'an to be, what differences there might be simply don't matter much; the message is the same. As the same message comes from different selections of manuscripts that's a decent indicator that it is the same as that offered by the 'originals'. How accurately those may have described actual events is, of course, a different question.

unless i'm mistaken, the original poster suggested that

Muslims also believe The Bible has been changed a lot over time, but it has NOT change. There are just different translations, and some are better than others, but that is not to stop people from researching the original text in Hebrew and Greek.

the bible has changed by man's hands. I've watched the history channels banned from the bible and was surprised as to how many books were left out of the bible for one reason or another....just eh, left out of the bible.

also, how can you research the original text in hebrew and greek when it doesn't exist? besides, if an original hebrew text of the bible emerged somewhere claiming that there is only 1 god and that jesus (as) was a prophet, it would be blasted as a forgery and rejected by 90% of the christian world especially the evangelicals...

 

[MustafaMc]

I don't know what terrible sins you have committed in your life, and I won't ask, but I would just pass on this hadith qudsi:

Allah the Almighty has said: O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.

This is one of my favorite hadiths. The Mercy of Allah is without measure. The beauty of Islam is all one needs to do is to believe there is only One God and ask for forgiveness for your sins.

 

[MustafaMc]

I don't see how someone who lays down their life for a friend as being a bloodthirsty entity. And in a sense, I am receiving God's gift through an act of faith, if you call it earning it, I won't argue with you. But as I said before, we must come to God on His terms not our own or someone else's terms.

This is exactly what we Muslims are saying and Allah's terms are that no partners be ascribed to Him and to accept Muhammad (pbuh) as his last Messenger.

 

[Redeemed]

This is exactly what we Muslims are saying and Allah's terms are that no partners be ascribed to Him and to accept Muhammad (pbuh) as his last Messenger.

We don't consider Jesus as ascribing a partner to God or the Holy Spirit for that matter. That is why we consider God one. Now if we held that same view of Jesus that you do, than that Jesus would be ascribing a partner to Him. But our Jesus is much different than yours. He is the Word of God Himself.
Yes, Jesus took a subordinate role to the Father, because he was spirit made into to flesh to relate to us. God create us, and He desired to relate to us in a very special way that we could understand. I would kneel to talk to a child so we could look at each other eye to eye. It might be hard for you to see a God that loves us that much, but it is not for us Christians. Jesus loves us so much that He would rather go to hell with us than go to heaven without us. Our God is committed to us and we have a confidence that is unparalleled. I believe it makes those who don't receive Christ as Lord of their life jealous of us.
:statisfie