Astrophysics

[Physicist]

Sura 9 - Ayat 112

ٱلتَّـٰٓئِبُونَ ٱلْعَـٰبِدُونَ ٱلْحَـٰمِدُونَ ٱلسَّـٰٓئِحُونَ ٱلرَّٲكِعُونَ ٱلسَّـٰجِدُونَ ٱلْأَمِرُونَ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَٱلنَّاهُونَ عَنِ ٱلْمُنكَرِ وَٱلْحَـٰفِظُونَ لِحُدُودِ ٱللَّهِ-ۗ وَبَشِّرِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ

(Such believers are) the repentant, the worshippers, the praisers (of Allah), the travelers (for His cause), those who bow and prostrate (in prayer), those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and those who observe the limits (set by) Allah. And give good tidings to the believers.

"Those who observe the limits [set by] Allah" - isn't it about scientists?

May be Howking was calling himself an atheist or whatever, but how do you know that he didn't have Tawheed? May be he didn't know the proper word for this.
Just as for myself, for many years I was already believing in God but was calling myself an atheist, agnostic because didn't see yet connection with religion.

 

[Ahmed.]

Just considering his contributions to science without regard to his personal beliefs, the man was a giant. I think it's actually more impressive that he was able to accomplish what he did with such a debilitating disease. It is very possible that the first detection of a black hole in 2016, and our first images of the accretion disk around the black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy from this year would not have happened without Hawking's contributions.

I think you need to separate the art from the artist. You can appreciate a man's work even if you do not respect the man himself. Many great men are flawed, perhaps even most of them.

But that's completely useless and of no real benefit to know of existence of black holes or see an image of it. It just increases scientists and atheists in pride and sense of self achievement, contrary to the humble selfless people that God wants us to be

The heavens and stars are there to beautify the sky and for us to get a sense of God's greatness, not to find out how gravity works or that there is a thing called a black hole out there :Emoji41:

Yes Islam says 'seek knowledge', but the knowledge it's asking us to seek is that which benefits in this world and in the hereafter, knowledge of gravity and black holes do neither

 

[Ümit]

But that's completely useless and of no real benefit to know of existence of black holes or see an image of it. It just increases scientists and atheists in pride and sense of self achievement, contrary to the humble selfless people that God wants us to be

The heavens and stars are there to beautify the sky and for us to get a sense of God's greatness, not to find out how gravity works or that there is a thing called a black hole out there :Emoji41:

Yes Islam says 'seek knowledge', but the knowledge it's asking us to seek is that which benefits in this world and in the hereafter, knowledge of gravity and black holes do neither

sorry ro say this but you sound like a teenager saying "why am İ getting math (or biology...or any other subject) lessons at my school? not that İ would ever use it in my life"

that you cannot think of a beneficial use of some certain information does not mean that that information is useless. any kind of information is useful. or do you think that humans came so far only because we only did research on stuff that were beneficial to humanity?

and yes you are totally right...heavens and stars are only there to beautify the sky...nothing more...you cannot navigate using the stars...you cannot say what date we are living at the moment...you cannot even tell wheter we live on a globe Earth or pancake Earth using the stars....and oh yeah...what does is matter if the Earth is flat or round? that information is also totally useless...right?

 

[Ahmed.]

sorry ro say this but you sound like a teenager saying "why am İ getting math (or biology...or any other subject) lessons at my school? not that İ would ever use it in my life"

that you cannot think of a beneficial use of some certain information does not mean that that information is useless. any kind of information is useful. or do you think that humans came so far only because we only did research on stuff that were beneficial to humanity?

and yes you are totally right...heavens and stars are only there to beautify the sky...nothing more...you cannot navigate using the stars...you cannot say what date we are living at the moment...you cannot even tell wheter we live on a globe Earth or pancake Earth using the stars....and oh yeah...what does is matter if the Earth is flat or round? that information is also totally useless...right?

Bruv, what possible use can the information about how gravity works or about black holes be of to benefit mankind?; this information is useless and even obtaining it has been sinful and a waste of money

Does Allah really want us to spend millions on telescopes and space research when this money can be spent on more worthy causes, not least food for the millions of starving people?

If obtaining such information is sin, then the info. Would be useless as it's not meant to be obtained in the first place

Too much information of the workings of creation damages peoples faith too and instead of 'God does this and that' people just put it down to cause and effect

The obsession with space research is fuelled by athiest philosophy of materialism. For believers space signifies Gods infinite power and is qibla for God, it is not a place to try and fathom it's hidden mysteries

 

[Physicist]

That's the point about scientific research. Most of experiments don't make immediate benefit, but they give you some kbowledge, better understanding how things works.
Do you think first experiments with static electricity had any practical sense? It was more like children game. Measuring speed of light? First works on relativity and quantum physics?
But now practical implementation of those discoveries you can't deny.

Yes, for some people it makes difficulties with fate. Because they used to not think far. For example, to let camels untied while expecting Allah to prevent them from going away. Then, they've learned more about animal behaviour and to tie their camels, taking responsibility for this job. But Allah always far behind be it behaviour of the camels or shining of the stars.
Like prophet Yusuff had a dream of sun prostrating to him.

 

[Ümit]

Bruv, what possible use can the information about how gravity works or about black holes be of to benefit mankind?; this information is useless and even obtaining it has been sinful and a waste of money

Does Allah really want us to spend millions on telescopes and space research when this money can be spent on more worthy causes, not least food for the millions of starving people?

If obtaining such information is sin, then the info. Would be useless as it's not meant to be obtained in the first place

Too much information of the workings of creation damages peoples faith too and instead of 'God does this and that' people just put it down to cause and effect

The obsession with space research is fuelled by athiest philosophy of materialism. For believers space signifies Gods infinite power and is qibla for God, it is not a place to try and fathom it's hidden mysteries

Meanwhile you are typing this behind your laptop and are about to post it to members of Islamicboars sitting on the other side of the planet...not realizing how your message gets there...You point your sattelite dish into a certain direction in the air and are suddenly able to receive tv channels without using a cable. one degrees out of direction will result in loss of signal.
You navigate around with your fancy smartphone and can have a visual live conversation with your auntie living thousands of miles away from you.

All because of discoveries and inventions where at the time of discovery we could not even imagine that the impact on humanity would be this great.

Right now, we cannot imagine what the impact on our lives will be when we find out how gravity exacly works...but once we discover that...(if we discover that)...I am guessing, the impact will be much greater than discovering electricity.

About black holes...our formulas we discovered until now, are just approximations of the reality...they are pretty accurate for a certain range...but once out of range, our formulas have no use. For instance, the formulas used in quantum physics do not add up with general relativity. The gap is now called dark energy and dark matter...not that there is some mysterious energy or matter we cannot see or detect...but that is exactly the part we cannot understand yet.
In and around black holes, the forces and physics also act totally different. the gravitational force is so massive that even light cannot escape it.
So, studying those black holes, can give us an insight on how the natural forces act on a total different range. and exactly that information can have a huge impact on us understanding the world around us.
Who said that obtaining that information is sinful? why then do you buy a smartphone or laptop when you can use that money to feed a poor for a month?
Are you now saying that technology and knowledge is evil? then I suggest you join the Amish club, say farewell to all development, plow your land with horses and oxes and live a modest life, completely seperated from the outside world.

You know of course that saying haraam to which is halal is also a sin right?

And even if...(not saying that it is, but just if) obtaining that info is haraam....then the info itself is still halal.
We all know that wine vinegar itself is halal...we could totally buy and consume wine vinegar...nothing wrong with that. For the production of it however, you need wine...which is haraam.
in other words...obtaining wine vinegar (production of it) is haraam...the use of it, totally halal.

 

[M.I.A.]

"Those who observe the limits [set by] Allah" - isn't it about scientists?

May be Howking was calling himself an atheist or whatever, but how do you know that he didn't have Tawheed? May be he didn't know the proper word for this.
Just as for myself, for many years I was already believing in God but was calling myself an atheist, agnostic because didn't see yet connection with religion.

https://youtu.be/Yq7NP1R1BZ8

Who knows.

 

[DanEdge]

Meanwhile you are typing this behind your laptop and are about to post it to members of Islamicboars sitting on the other side of the planet...not realizing how your message gets there...You point your sattelite dish into a certain direction in the air and are suddenly able to receive tv channels without using a cable. one degrees out of direction will result in loss of signal.
You navigate around with your fancy smartphone and can have a visual live conversation with your auntie living thousands of miles away from you.

All because of discoveries and inventions where at the time of discovery we could not even imagine that the impact on humanity would be this great.

Right now, we cannot imagine what the impact on our lives will be when we find out how gravity exacly works...but once we discover that...(if we discover that)...I am guessing, the impact will be much greater than discovering electricity.

About black holes...our formulas we discovered until now, are just approximations of the reality...they are pretty accurate for a certain range...but once out of range, our formulas have no use. For instance, the formulas used in quantum physics do not add up with general relativity. The gap is now called dark energy and dark matter...not that there is some mysterious energy or matter we cannot see or detect...but that is exactly the part we cannot understand yet.
In and around black holes, the forces and physics also act totally different. the gravitational force is so massive that even light cannot escape it.
So, studying those black holes, can give us an insight on how the natural forces act on a total different range. and exactly that information can have a huge impact on us understanding the world around us.
Who said that obtaining that information is sinful? why then do you buy a smartphone or laptop when you can use that money to feed a poor for a month?
Are you now saying that technology and knowledge is evil? then I suggest you join the Amish club, say farewell to all development, plow your land with horses and oxes and live a modest life, completely seperated from the outside world.

You know of course that saying haraam to which is halal is also a sin right?

And even if...(not saying that it is, but just if) obtaining that info is haraam....then the info itself is still halal.
We all know that wine vinegar itself is halal...we could totally buy and consume wine vinegar...nothing wrong with that. For the production of it however, you need wine...which is haraam.
in other words...obtaining wine vinegar (production of it) is haraam...the use of it, totally halal.

Ümit,

I was going to write a reply to the previous poster, and then I saw that you had already done so better than I would have [emoji16]

I do think that there are a lot of interesting points to parse out about the balance between science vs spirituality, obsession with facts in the material world, and other topics. One of these for is that a large percentage of scientists conclude the atheism is the logical outcome of scientific thinking. Stephen Hawking Neil deGrasse Tyson are examples of this, while Einstein is a notable counterexample.

My experience with atheism was different. I decided that I was an atheist when I was about 15, but it was only after studying science for many years that I retreated to agnosticism. For me, a big lesson of scientific thinking is that the scope of human knowledge is necessarily limited, therefore sweeping generalizations such as "God cannot exist" are not tenable or logical conclusions. How could I possibly know that?

So now, I am open to the possibility that there is a God. I just don't have any knowledge of his properties or intentions. I see other people have faith or use certain evidences that convinced them of one religion or other. Sometimes I wish I could be religious because religious people often have positive supportive communities, strong beliefs, good self-awareness, and other things. But I'm not going to pretend that I believe in something that I don't. So I'm kind of stuck.

I started rambling there, sorry about that [emoji1] hope you are all having a good day.

 

[Physicist]

...
My experience with atheism was different. I decided that I was an atheist when I was about 15, but it was only after studying science for many years that I retreated to agnosticism. For me, a big lesson of scientific thinking is that the scope of human knowledge is necessarily limited, therefore sweeping generalizations such as "God cannot exist" are not tenable or logical conclusions. How could I possibly know that?

So now, I am open to the possibility that there is a God. I just don't have any knowledge of his properties or intentions. I see other people have faith or use certain evidences that convinced them of one religion or other. Sometimes I wish I could be religious because religious people often have positive supportive communities, strong beliefs, good self-awareness, and other things. But I'm not going to pretend that I believe in something that I don't. So I'm kind of stuck.
...

Consider absolute complexity.
For example, number pi may be presented as an infinite sequence of digits, but it's absolute complexity is very small, only simple algorithm for it's generation.

Consider observation of some arbitrary system, when you have incomplete information about it. You may reconstruct many possible solutions describing your incomplete dataset. But probability of solution to be true will be proportional to the exponent of absolute complexity. Because if you add one bit of complexity, you are getting 2 systems with the same output.

Only this enough already to declare minimal absolute complexity of the universe. "In the beginning was the Word."

Considering enthropy conservation on the quantum level and second thermodynamic law of permanent increase of enthropy in classic physics. It gives way to more interesting conclusions how things much more interrelated than we can see.

One property of Allah you can be sure purely from the math point, is that He does everything perfectly, beautiful, with minimal possible absolute complexity. Considering entire Creation, not just some person who may of course complain about his life complexity

 

[DanEdge]

Consider absolute complexity.
For example, number pi may be presented as an infinite sequence of digits, but it's absolute complexity is very small, only simple algorithm for it's generation.

Consider observation of some arbitrary system, when you have incomplete information about it. You may reconstruct many possible solutions describing your incomplete dataset. But probability of solution to be true will be proportional to the exponent of absolute complexity. Because if you add one bit of complexity, you are getting 2 systems with the same output.

Only this enough already to declare minimal absolute complexity of the universe. "In the beginning was the Word."

Considering enthropy conservation on the quantum level and second thermodynamic law of permanent increase of enthropy in classic physics. It gives way to more interesting conclusions how things much more interrelated than we can see.

One property of Allah you can be sure purely from the math point, is that He does everything perfectly, beautiful, with minimal possible absolute complexity. Considering entire Creation, not just some person who may of course complain about his life complexity

You had me at "consider absolute complexity". [emoji1] The very notion makes me happy, because it means I will never run out of things to puzzle about.

 

[Ahmed.]

Meanwhile you are typing this behind your laptop and are about to post it to members of Islamicboars sitting on the other side of the planet...not realizing how your message gets there...You point your sattelite dish into a certain direction in the air and are suddenly able to receive tv channels without using a cable. one degrees out of direction will result in loss of signal.
You navigate around with your fancy smartphone and can have a visual live conversation with your auntie living thousands of miles away from you.

All because of discoveries and inventions where at the time of discovery we could not even imagine that the impact on humanity would be this great.

Right now, we cannot imagine what the impact on our lives will be when we find out how gravity exacly works...but once we discover that...(if we discover that)...I am guessing, the impact will be much greater than discovering electricity.

About black holes...our formulas we discovered until now, are just approximations of the reality...they are pretty accurate for a certain range...but once out of range, our formulas have no use. For instance, the formulas used in quantum physics do not add up with general relativity. The gap is now called dark energy and dark matter...not that there is some mysterious energy or matter we cannot see or detect...but that is exactly the part we cannot understand yet.
In and around black holes, the forces and physics also act totally different. the gravitational force is so massive that even light cannot escape it.
So, studying those black holes, can give us an insight on how the natural forces act on a total different range. and exactly that information can have a huge impact on us understanding the world around us.
Who said that obtaining that information is sinful? why then do you buy a smartphone or laptop when you can use that money to feed a poor for a month?
Are you now saying that technology and knowledge is evil? then I suggest you join the Amish club, say farewell to all development, plow your land with horses and oxes and live a modest life, completely seperated from the outside world.

You know of course that saying haraam to which is halal is also a sin right?

And even if...(not saying that it is, but just if) obtaining that info is haraam....then the info itself is still halal.
We all know that wine vinegar itself is halal...we could totally buy and consume wine vinegar...nothing wrong with that. For the production of it however, you need wine...which is haraam.
in other words...obtaining wine vinegar (production of it) is haraam...the use of it, totally halal.

Regarding laptops and things, br [MENTION=2803]Abdurrahman[/MENTION] absolutely nailed it with a post of his :

https://www.islamicboard.com/health-amp-science/134353063-image-black-hole-tariq.html#post3011615

 

[Ümit]

Ümit,

I was going to write a reply to the previous poster, and then I saw that you had already done so better than I would have [emoji16]

That needed to be said...I could get pretty annoyed when people do not understand how valuable knowledge is...and our beloved religion kinda forces us to go out there and discover...gain knowledge....without specifying what kind of knowledge one should seek.
So phrases like "that information is non-beneficial to you" or "observing the stars is useless and a waste of time" always trigger me.
true...some information is not always equally beneficial to everyone...but that is more like a personal matter...but generally saying that a certain information is useless is a sign of narrow-sightiness (if that is a word ) and it totally de-motivates other people to go out and seek answers for the questions and doubts in their heads.

That is why I am more or less forced to say something about that when it happens.

I do think that there are a lot of interesting points to parse out about the balance between science vs spirituality, obsession with facts in the material world, and other topics. One of these for is that a large percentage of scientists conclude the atheism is the logical outcome of scientific thinking. Stephen Hawking Neil deGrasse Tyson are examples of this, while Einstein is a notable counterexample.

My experience with atheism was different. I decided that I was an atheist when I was about 15, but it was only after studying science for many years that I retreated to agnosticism. For me, a big lesson of scientific thinking is that the scope of human knowledge is necessarily limited, therefore sweeping generalizations such as "God cannot exist" are not tenable or logical conclusions. How could I possibly know that?

you couldn't know that...but you discovered that the hard way...which is the best way...so you wouldn't let that valuable piece of information go so easily. just carry on and you will get there my friend...hopefully before it's too late for you.

So now, I am open to the possibility that there is a God. I just don't have any knowledge of his properties or intentions. I see other people have faith or use certain evidences that convinced them of one religion or other. Sometimes I wish I could be religious because religious people often have positive supportive communities, strong beliefs, good self-awareness, and other things. But I'm not going to pretend that I believe in something that I don't. So I'm kind of stuck.

I started rambling there, sorry about that [emoji1] hope you are all having a good day.

I am kinda aware of your situation...I have seen some of your previous posts and I know that you are struggling. I tried to draw your attention before but I guess I failed. You see, I am also a person of science and logic...just like you...I am not satisfied with just a general answer..."it is like that because it is written in the Quraan". I do accept that answer of course...but it does not answer the question in my head.
For me, there should always be a logical answer...and if I seek long enough...and deep enough I will find that answer.

So far, everytime I discovered new answers, my faith in Allah grew stronger and stronger...because that was another piece of evidence that Islaam is a religion of logic...totally parallel to science...true religion should be an extension of science. it roughly gives us a direction.

I noticed that you are also like me. a science person...looking for logical answers...my advantage is that I can combine it with my religion.
In one of your latest post you are looking for answers for your Jewish friend. From this I understand you are trying to understand how stuff work in Islaam. But for that to understand you need a whole bunch of other questions answered first. I have listed several of those questions for you in the hope you got triggered and ask about it…or ask about your Jewish friend to keep the discussion going.
Unfortunately, you never took the bait
I am more than gladly willing to share what I know with you. Just ask.
The only favor (a big favor, but a fair one I hope) I ask from you is to keep an open mind and be honest to us, but mostly to yourself. like you said, pretending will bring you and me nowhere.

 

[Ümit]

Regarding laptops and things, br @Abdurrahman absolutely nailed it with a post of his :

https://www.islamicboard.com/health-amp-science/134353063-image-black-hole-tariq.html#post3011615

Yeah you are right...he totally nailed it:

I answered this lately on another forum So I'll post that here:

Q. Satellites also bring a lot of good.


A. Ofcourse satellites do a lot of good however we can do without it; no one was complaining 20 years ago when we didn't have satellite navigation.

Satellites are used more for evil purposes like pornography and spying on other countries..

I do not want to sound like a know-it-all but 20 years ago we already had satellite TV, navigation, and mobile phones. But I get what you are saying. No we did not complain about that....but 400 years ago we did not complain that we had no radio...but that was also fine...you understand what I'm getting at right?

That satellites are used for evil purposes is also a non-argument. So every item is like that.
you can use your van to transport fellow Muslims to a mosque, or you can drive into a crowded christmas market in the middle of Europe and cause death to tens of christian and atheist victims.

Anything can be a weapon in the wrong hands...this does not make the item itself evil or haraam. it just gives opportunities...its to the individual self what to do with those opportunities....like you do not have a TV at home...or a laptop...you can watch porn with it if you like...you do not need satellite for that.

Go on to YouTube and just read some of the comments under old-school music. People wish they were back in the happy and simple old days when life was far better.

This is the world we live in now...complaining about the past will bring you nowhere. what do you think Islaam teaches about unneccessary complaining...like complaining about the old days?

Things like sending probes to mars and man on moon etc are just a waste of time and money. Huble telescope gives us great images of space but just gazing at stars and glorifying God is enough.

... space travel is based on the anti Christ saying 'you're helping me' ( https://youtu.be/y5ZfmBqnLcQ ) regarding them. If the devil is pleased with them then they have to be of far greater evil benefit than good.

Kids are getting unhealthy these days not playing outside and just being on the internet in their free time. Kids as young as 12 have access to sick heart corrupting pornography, people don't even have time to think about God because they are too busy 'entertaining themselves to death' with satellite tv... doesn't these reasons outweigh the benefits of these things?

There's more reason I can think of, such as these things serve to make the elite more rich and poor more poorer (which in turn yields more power into the baddies hands)... the consumerist culture of buy buy and more buy is particularly thriving on associated gadgets like mobile phone, computer etc..

So there's more benefit to the dajjal then to humanity

new discoveries create new opportunities. this means also new opportunities for the devil. Of course he will be happy with that...but does that mean we should give up all research and development and join the Amish club. I still think that it is our own responsibility how to deal with those opportunities.

And again...that you do not see the benefit of examining stars, does not mean it is useless.

 

[Physicist]

I kind of understand motivation of those who are trying to stop scientific progress and would prefer to return to old times, riding camels and all of that. Main reason perhaps is to delay approaching to the Day of Judgement.
But don't they realize that they are trying to go against Will of Allah?
If Allah wanted, He could keep mankind on the same technological level. Instead, we are literally forced to progress.
If you will try to hide in the caves, zionists and communists will take a lead.
There was time when jews were choosen ummah, but because they went astray, Allah sent prophet Muhammad. The same may happen to current Ummah if we will go against His will. As is said in Quran, Allah may even make another Creation if He is displeased with us.

 

[Ümit]

I kind of understand motivation of those who are trying to stop scientific progress and would prefer to return to old times, riding camels and all of that. Main reason perhaps is to delay approaching to the Day of Judgement.
But don't they realize that they are trying to go against Will of Allah?
If Allah wanted, He could keep mankind on the same technological level. Instead, we are literally forced to progress.
If you will try to hide in the caves, zionists and communists will take a lead.
There was time when jews were choosen ummah, but because they went astray, Allah sent prophet Muhammad. The same may happen to current Ummah if we will go against His will. As is said in Quran, Allah may even make another Creation if He is displeased with us.

Yes, I also understand their motivation. but still...we need to keep going...we cannot delay the judgement day for a second...we cannot even delay our own deaths for a second.

about that other creation is new for me. could you please share with me what verse this is? I never heard it before.

 

[Physicist]

Sura 14 - Ayat 19

أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلْأَرْضَ بِٱلْحَقِّ-ۚ إِن يَشَأْ يُذْهِبْكُمْ وَيَأْتِ بِخَلْقٍ جَدِيدٍ

Have you not seen that Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth? If He wills, He can do away with you and produce a new creation.

Islam: The Noble Quran (https://goo.gl/prmwod)

 

[Physicist]

Considering astronomy and enormous total number of stars in enormous number or galaxies, among which may be enough planets to create the life, how it was done on Earth. Though such conditions are quite rare.

Sura 10 - Ayat 4

إِلَيْهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا-ۖ وَعْدَ ٱللَّهِ حَقًّا-ۚ إِنَّهُۥ يَبْدَؤُاْ ٱلْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُۥ لِيَجْزِىَ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ ٱلصَّـٰلِحَـٰتِ بِٱلْقِسْطِ-ۚ وَٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لَهُمْ شَرَابٌ مِّنْ حَمِيمٍ وَعَذَابٌ أَلِيمُۢ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَكْفُرُونَ

To Him is your return all together. [It is] the promise of Allah [which is] truth. Indeed, He begins the [process of] creation and then repeats it that He may reward those who have believed and done righteous deeds, in justice. But those who disbelieved will have a drink of scalding water and a painful punishment for what they used to deny.

May this be about creation of life in remote sectors of space? So, that they don't interact and has a chance to develop without intrusion.

It's totally InshaAllah if we will found out that we are alone in the universe or will be tested by intrusion of aliens when our time will come.
Allah knows best.

But for now, in this life, stars are only for beauty and learning of fundamental things.