Atheism and Morality

[Gator]

My post never said that contemplation cannot occur in human minds without creation of physical images, nor did it say that all Creations of physical images, are solely for contemplating future events. Please re-read my post.

Just FYI. There are some studies that are pointing to animals indeed contemplating and planning for the future.

"Time in the Animal Mind" from the NY Times April 3, 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/science/03time.html?ex=1181275200&en=9d85bf71cc3dc584&ei=5070

 

[root]

These experiments provide the first-ever evidence that animals can plan future actions not only on the basis of what they currently desire, but also on the basis of what they anticipate they will desire in the future. This is another striking example of how animals show features of intelligence that were once thought to be uniquely human.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070426145131.htm

 

[NoName55]

Me thinks that someone has watched Planet of the Apes one too many times

 

[ranma1/2]

My synopsis of what I see being said so far:

Most Theists do not doubt that atheists can and most do have moral values.



Us theists believe that is something that came from God(swt).

Atheists believe it came from evolution or as social training.

Theists believe Morality in atheists gives evidence of God(swt)

Atheists believe morality in theists gives evidence of evolution.

Atheists believe in logic.

Theists believe in logical faith

Conclusion: We are going to have difficulty in coming to a common reason for the existance of morality.

What gets me is when theist say atheists cant be moral. It seems that in the minds of these theist morality comes only from their religion or their god and they then ignore all other religions that are moral.

 

[ranma1/2]

Me thinks that someone has watched Planet of the Apes one too many times

Perhaps you should read the articles and learn about evolution?

And why is it Theists always proclaiming the "Truth" as in your quote?
I dont think I ever hear scientists proclaim the "truth" in the way theists do.

Evidence yes. Facts yes.

 

[NoName55]

Perhaps you should read the articles and learn about evolution?

And why is it Theists always proclaiming the "Truth" as in your quote?
I dont think I ever hear scientists proclaim the "truth" in the way theists do.

Evidence yes. Facts yes.

That Planet of the Apes has a lot to answer for, for you are so muddled up that you can't tell the difference between post and quote in one's signature

May I ask whether it is blind hatred of God that is taxing you brain or is it still going thru evolutionary process thus has not reached maturity

 

[ranma1/2]

That Planet of the Apes has a lot to answer for, for you are so muddled up that you can't tell the difference between post and quote in one's signature

May I ask whether it is blind hatred of God that is taxing you brain or is it still going thru evolutionary process thus has not reached maturity

I have no hatred for things that i perceive not to exists. And I was referring to your quote as well. It matters not if its in your sig or if its part of the main post.
And it is you that is acting childish.

 

[جوري]

That Planet of the Apes has a lot to answer for, for you are so muddled up that you can't tell the difference between post and quote in one's signature

May I ask whether it is blind hatred of God that is taxing you brain or is it still going thru evolutionary process thus has not reached maturity

lol-- there is so much wisdom in your words, especially in closure.

 

[rav]

Just FYI. There are some studies that are pointing to animals indeed contemplating and planning for the future.

There are studies on a great number of things. Many studies contradict eachother. The article says; "But some experts", and I would assume that these experts do indeed have an agenda as in they believe these things: "evolved in our ancestors".

What gets me is when theist say atheists cant be moral since in their minds morality comes only from their religion or their god and they then ignore all other religions.

I could make no sense of what you were trying to say, whatsoever.

 

[Duncan Ferguson]

What line can people who believe in the theory of evolution draw between eating beef and eating men?

The quick answer is that we would probably get something akin to Creutzfeld-Jakob disease, as cannibals are susceptible to.

 

[جوري]

Many things give spongiform encephalopathy which Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease is similar too etiology wise.. surely you've heard of mad cow disease, & cysticercosis, from a rather long cycle I'd prefer not to get into, but at the very base of it there is a pig or a pig "byproduct" involved! I don't think avoiding an encephalopathy is the main reason people don't become cannibals however, at least that is our hope!

 

[ranma1/2]

The quick answer is that we would probably get something akin to Creutzfeld-Jakob disease, as cannibals are susceptible to.

That usually results from eating infected meat or brains.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I never said, burial is connected to contemplation of death, and all who do not bury do not contemplate death. I am saying that only humans are “moved by a lifeless form to contemplate something beyond the physical universe”.

Well then why are you bringing these things up if not to support the latter point? The point is bold assertion and nothing more and here you are underlining that yourself.

Think for a second. Re-read my posts, you’re obviously an intelligent guy, so I presume you will be able to figure out how my points are indeed pertinent.

You just noted the opposite.

I’m afraid your dog reacts to his natural environment, which I presume is your home. Your claim has no evidence one way or the other. So when your pup is lying on your pillow, ears flopped, eyes gushing with love, is he really thinking about you or just what makes him happy?

I don't know what my dog thinks. You don't either - that is the point. You claim that we humans are unique in thinking certain thoughts, yet you have nothing pointing to that other than your religious teachings and beliefs.

 

[rav]

Shalom,

Well then why are you bringing these things up if not to support the latter point? The point is bold assertion and nothing more and here you are underlining that yourself.

I'm afraid I do not understand exactly what you mean. I wrote: "I am saying that only humans are moved by a lifeless form to contemplate something beyond the physical universe" What I was pointing out, was the misconception, that you thought I was suggesting that the two points of burying the dead and contemplating something beyond the physical universe because of a lifeless body, were connected in the inner "programming" we have, which in my humble belief is from G-d.

I don't know what my dog thinks. You don't either - that is the point. You claim that we humans are unique in thinking certain thoughts, yet you have nothing pointing to that other than your religious teachings and beliefs.

That was my exact point. A few pages back in this thread you suggested that you did know exactly what your dog was thinking based on your observations of his/hers actions.

 

[Pygoscelis]

That was my exact point. A few pages back in this thread you suggested that you did know exactly what your dog was thinking based on your observations of his/hers actions.

No. I was responding to your claim that humans are unique in thinking about certain things. I pointed out that my dog appears to have free will and think these thoughts too. Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't. I don't really know. Neither do you, and therefore you can't so casually claim we are unique and expect us to take it as a statement of fact.

 

[root]

Shalom,

"I am saying that only humans are moved by a lifeless form to contemplate something beyond the physical universe"

SNIP

Elephants pay homage to the bones of their dead, gently touching the skulls and tusks with their trunks and feet, according to the first systematic study of elephant empathy for the dead. The finding provides the first hard evidence to support stories of elephant mourning, in which the pachyderms are said to congregate at elephant cemeteries, drawn by the bones of their kin.

It also shows that these animals display a trait once thought to be unique to humans

Source:http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1497634.htm

I think Pygoscelis is correct, Elaphants have also been shown to be "moved by a lifeless form to contemplate something beyond the physical universe". We do not know that the elaphant is actually thinking when displaying empathy

 

[Muezzin]

Somewhere along the line, somebody apparently became possessed by the spirit of Doctor Dolittle, and turned this thread into a contemplation of the thought-processes of animals. I thought it was about whether or not atheists are moral creatures, with the connected point of whether or not religions/God originate morality?

Not that I dislike the Dolittling.

 

[Woodrow]

Although we have become Dr. Dolittle fans, I think the original thought behind the animal introduction had to do with animals not being instilled with moral values and if morality was an evolutionary process animals should also have moral values.

I'm not too certain as to how the intellect and thought processes fit in.

So giving a quick summation:

humans have intrinsic moral values. animals don't. this is evidence moral values are not an evolutionary process but the result of some intervention, which we as theists believe to be the work of God(swt).

 

[Gator]

humans have intrinsic moral values. animals don't.

I disagree. I can't prove it. You can't prove it. So we have defined our personal opinions.

this is evidence moral values are not an evolutionary process but the result of some intervention, which we as theists believe to be the work of God(swt).

As I disagree with above statement, and when combined with my other beliefs (ie. no god), the conclusion doesn't follow for me.

Well, I guess that's about it.

Thanks.

 

[Woodrow]

I disagree. I can't prove it. You can't prove it. So we have defined our personal opinions.


As I disagree with above statement, and when combined with my other beliefs (ie. no god), the conclusion doesn't follow for me.

Well, I guess that's about it.

Thanks.

I disagree with your disagreement simply because I feel like disagreeing.








Now that I got that out (sorry I couldn't resist the temptation).


I do agree that this will come down to personal beliefs as like you said neither of us can present a "proof" that the other would accept. But, perhaps this may spread some insight as to why we theists do believe as we do. Both of us will view the other as personal opinions. We all do have a right to our opinions and our opinions can be a valuable guide to help us convey our thoughts and help share ideas and concepts.