Atheism

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

God's existence could only be proved by him being observed by somebody.

If the existence of something was proven by being able to observe it, then solipsism would be refuted. I don't think that is the case.

 

[Woodrow]

If the existence of something was proven by being able to observe it, then solipsism would be refuted. I don't think that is the case.

Where is a solipsist when you need one. Now I am wondering if a solipsist would have a website, refuting refutations against solipsism.

Solipsism is sometimes expressed as the view that "I am the only mind which exists," or "My mental states are the only mental states." However, the sole survivor of a nuclear holocaust might truly come to believe in either of these propositions without thereby being a solipsist. Solipsism is therefore more properly regarded as the doctrine that, in principle, "existence" means for me my existence and that of my mental states. Existence is everything that I experience -- physical objects, other people, events and processes -- anything that would commonly be regarded as a constituent of the space and time in which I coexist with others and is necessarily construed by me as part of the content of my consciousness. For the solipsist, it is not merely the case that he believes that his thoughts, experiences, and emotions are, as a matter of contingent fact, the only thoughts, experiences, and emotions. Rather, the solipsist can attach no meaning to the supposition that there could be thoughts, experiences, and emotions other than his own. In short, the true solipsist understands the word "pain," for example, to mean "my pain." He cannot accordingly conceive how this word is to be applied in any sense other than this exclusively egocentric one.

Quoted from: http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/solipsis.htm

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If the existence of something was proven by being able to observe it, then solipsism would be refuted. I don't think that is the case.

Good point! I hadn't thought of that. In that case I'd better revise my earlier statement about god's existence being provable.

How about: observing god would give us good grounds for believing in his existence?

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Good point! I hadn't thought of that. In that case I'd better revise my earlier statement about god's existence being provable.

How about: observing god would give us good grounds for believing in his existence?

It's no longer flawed though it suffers a high degree of subjectivity. The important point to note is the varying standards and conditions one can draw for acceptable evidence, which - if take to an extreme - lead to something like solipsism. I would argue that human beings already have sufficient grounds to believe in God though we cannot see Him just as we have already accepted many other concepts and entities which are unobservable. In science, the entities and theories are accepted for the explanation they provide to the observed phenomena. If one clings to unwarranted conditions, they will remain uncertain about whether anything exists, let alone God!

Peace

 

[Salah ad-din]

In the sun, moon and stars, in the alternation of day and night there are signs for those who understand.

We had to have been created somehow. We have to had been rooted from somewhere.

We our self is proof that the The Higher Power obviously exist..

 

[Joe98]

We had to have been created somehow.

Yes!

We our self is proof that the The Higher Power obviously exist.

No it isn't. You dont understand something and therefore presume a supernatural being must exist.

 

[Pygoscelis]

First, I'll out myself. I am an agnostic atheist (I lack any belief in the supernatural as a default position and see no reason to change that)

2 points I'd like to make here.

First, I am always amazed in the evolution vs creation debates at how it never gets past "The universe is so complex that it must have been created". Why do we never go the next step?

Granted, for the sake of argument, that the universe is created how does that in any way prove that it was created by a God or by your God in particular? Seems to me just as likely that it was created by aliens or by some being who did it by mistake and is not aware of it. Who knows it could even be created by some being that'll correct its mistake if we make it aware of it. So prayer could be dangerous!!

Second, I am firmly convinced that the staunch atheist will NEVER be convinced that God exists short of God taking away the atheists free will and forcing him to believe. Other "evidence" will be seen as hallucination or signs that he is going insane.

I am also convinced that no argument from logic or reason will convince the staunch theist that God doesn't exist. Any such arguments will be seen as attacks on God and evil etc.

The simple fact of the matter is that theism/atheism isn't something we adopt out of logic or reason. It is something that we are either programmed to believe at an age when we don't question or that we adopt primarily due to emotional need.

If you need to believe that those who do bad things will be punished and those who do good will be rewarded, if you need to believe that you will live forever, if you need to believe that there is an inherent higher purpose and that things happen for a reason, you are likely to become a theist.

If you are naturally suspect, if you need proof and hard evidence to believe something, if logic and reason are more important to you than comfort and purpose, if you can tolerate the idea of those who do wrong never being caught and those who do right never being recognized, if you are an individualist and place original thought over social cohesion, you are likely to become an atheist.

I think these factors, amongst others, have FAR more to do with whether you are a believer or not than any arguments or "facts" that may be presented.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I wonder if the holy texts (Bible, Quran, Torah, etc) could themselves be used as evidence against the existence of their claimed Gods. Why would a God need a book to tell you what he wants you to know. Why couldn't he simply make you know the text and ideas. He wouldn't have to make you believe in the ideas, just know them, hence still allowing your free will. Why rely on a middle man, especially a mortal one, who may get something wrong?

I think an argument could be made that a real God wouldn't have a holy text. THis just ocurred to me.

 

[جوري]

I don't see anything "super natural" about God ... anymore than super natural impossibility of things coming into being from nothing but a few organic elements ... well, where did they come from?...... or the super natural impossibility of them evolving into complex lives, each differentiating into something that something else isn't ... what is the mathematical probability of that happening really and being all a random chance? The super natural impossibility of them not only working properly but being so visually appealing ... if the whole point of the scientific world is functionality then why all the beauty? Until atheists prove without a reasonable doubt scientifically, mathematically, probability wise how all these things came to be on their own using "logic and reason" the rest of us theists will just continue to believe in God.

2nd point of why doesn't God simply makes you know his texts? well what really is the point of that? God if we are to accept his supreme being, would not need our validation or approval, in fact I think it would be quite the opposite, we would be at a loss not seeking him ... what would be the point of our existence here on earth if it were all ready made? Would be heaven no? all the secrets of the universe would have unraveled.... I mean every story has a plot? and such is the plight of mankind ... to think, to conclude, to seek knowledge. Is there a God or is there not a God? something we'll all find out with the advent of our incumbent death one way or the other.......In order for you to use the texts (scriptures) to disprove God you'd have to read and discern them ... if the case can be made against God using the books against him ... it would have already been done, and I am sure it would have been a NY times best seller ... fact is no one has.... in fact the books seem to be continuation of each other though hundreds of years apart... Guess the rest of you atheists will just have to live with the rest of us theists ... fairy tales and all .......

 

[Salmaan]

How do you disbelieve in Allah!!!


How do you disbelieve in Allah, seeing that you were dead and He gave you life! Then He will cause you to die, then He will give you life, then unto Him you will return. [Al Qur'an (2:28)]

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit this act of kufr? How do you cover up this reality (the reality of Allah), seeing that you were dead - you were lifeless, not existing, not known or mentioned - and He gave you life?

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How with unlimited number of question marks and exclamation marks. This statement demonstrates how strange and unnatural this act of kufr (disbelief) is, being aware that one did not exist before and thus ignoring the Cause of existence. How would you disbelieve in the One Who gave you life and will cause you to die? And not only that but will give you life again and then calls you for accountability.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you inflate yourselves with false pride, which is the main key of kufr [1], knowing that you were dead and will certainly go back to that state? Being aware of your beginning and of your end, and seeing that you have no control over both, you are indeed expected to be humble without having one iota of pride. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How come you are unthankful to the One Who endowed you with the bounty of life and what it contains! Who endowed you with the faculties of hearing, seeing and understanding. In fact, humans are completely enveloped by God's favors. Thankfulness is the befitting and expected act from you not kufr (ungratefulness).

When we see an individual treating his or her mother badly, we become astonished and hate that kind of behavior. Surely our astonishment and hatefulness of such behavior increase when we realize the continuous effort of the mother and the care she provides her child with. The action of such individual is clearly a severe act of ungratefulness. And if this is the case, then what about the One Who created us and our mothers, the One Who provides for us and for our mothers? It becomes then clear that the act of ignoring the favors of Allah (glory be to Him) exceeds all limits of injustice and ungratefulness. Ignoring the favors of the Creator is surely a crime beyond description.

In fact, if Allah is not thanked whom else will be thanked? If Allah is not obeyed whom else will be obeyed? And it Allah is not worshiped whom else will be worshiped?

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you disbelieve in the One Who is that great (all greatness) and, Who is that able (all ability)! How do you disbelieve in the One Who brought you to existence and Who is to recreate you after death! How do you disbelieve in the One Who owns you fully and nothing happens in the universe except as a result of His will? He is indeed the One to be conscious of and the One to be respected. How do you disbelieve in the One Whom you will return to for accountability and there is no escape from meeting Him?

Allah is indeed our Owner. We are His property. A property that is completely dependent and is disparately in need of its Owner. And an Owner Who is in no need to His property and His property does not in any way increase His unlimited richness.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the resurrection and accountability, knowing that you were dead and Allah gave you life? It is extremely ignorant to doubt the ability of Allah (glory be to Him) - the One Who originated you to give you life again. And it is also foolish to ignore the seriousness and purposefulness that is ingrained in creation that strongly point out towards eventual accountability.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit shirk (worshiping others with Allah or giving the attributes of Allah to others), which is one of the severest forms of kufr, whereas Allah is the only One Who gave you life, the only One that will cause you to die then live again, and the only One that will bring you for full accountability.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) defined shirk saying- "That you make somebody or something similar to Allah, while He created you." In the Qur'an Allah (glory be to Him) says: "Yet they ascribe as partners unto Him the jinn . Although He did create them, they falsely, having no knowledge, attributed to Him sons and daughters. Glorified be He and exalted above (all) that, they ascribe (unto Him)," 6:100. We notice here, in the Qur'anic verse and the Prophet's saying, the exclamation about the act of giving the attributes of Allah or describing Him in human terms (attributing to Allah human qualities), while Allah is the Only Creator.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the existence of the Creator, while you are created and surely you have not created yourselves? Also nothingness can not be the Cause of your existence. How do you deny the Cause of your existence? It is like a machine denying the existence of its maker and not obeying his or her commands.

It the universe and what it contains is not enough for any sane individual, proving the existence of the Creator, then there are only two possibilities. First, the individual's mind is not functioning right, which means that the individual's faculty of understanding is shielded by various desires and self interest. The second possibility is that there is a problem of conception. If the individual views God, for example, as a trinity or as a white bearded being located at one of the far planets or stars, then how would one prove the existence of such being!

In reality Atheism (denying the existence of God) grows and flourishes in environments or situations where wrong beliefs are being inherited or adopted. In a society where mysticism, for example, is prevalent and being practiced one would certainly find people reacting properly or improperly to such nonsense, going to various directions like Atheism, Agnosticism or rarely the correct belief and understanding.

At times one hears some Muslims talking about the difficulty to prove the existence of God which is indeed unexpected and saddening. This kind of claim should only come from people following and promoting other belief systems that are not based on understanding and evidence. This is because if such people prove the existence of God logically, they would be unable to continue this process for unproven illogical other aspects, like for example, the trinity or the attributes claimed to be acquired by the so called saints.

Proving the existence of God is so simple to demonstrate and understand. One does not need to have a special experience, study or training. What is needed is simply the life experience of being here surrounded with the universe and its components (including humans and their life supporting systems).

Some people also claim that the belief in God is something internal; that is based on one's internal feelings. Surely the human nature, the built-in nature (the Fitrah), is a factor in the individual confirmation of the existence of God, but it is certainly not the only evidence. Furthermore, the human's built-in nature can be covered up with all kinds of whims and desires and thus becomes unable to function property. Therefore, depending on the inner feelings as the sole factor of proving the existence of God is clearly erroneous.

What can be said here is that the Fitrah, the uncorrupted built-in nature of the human, resonates happily with the Truth. It resonates greatly with the overwhelming evidence proving the existence of the Creator and describing His unimaginable great attributes.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Until atheists prove without a reasonable doubt scientifically, mathematically, probability wise how all these things came to be on their own using "logic and reason" the rest of us theists will just continue to believe in God.

I don't doubt that. And of course it is an impossible task and a straw man. The atheist doesn't necesarily believe that these things "came to be on their own". Maybe aliens did it. Maybe these things were not created because they have always been. The atheist doesn't have to know. He isn't making any claim, he's just denying one.

And even if somehow someway the athiest was able to "prove" that these thiings came to be on their own using logic and reason and science etc, I highly doubt many theists would be convinced. As I wrote above the attachment is not one fundamentally based on logic and reason but one based on personality and emotional needs. The same is true for the athiest. You could put God before him directly with a big neon sign and he'd likely think it was an acid trip.

2nd point of why doesn't God simply makes you know his texts?

...

all the secrets of the universe would have unraveled

Just because we inherently knew the claims of the bible we'd have all the secrets of the universe unravelled? That doesnt follow.

if the case can be made against God using the books against him ... it would have already been done, and I am sure it would have been a NY times best seller

Well as noted above I'd wager that no matter what the atheist wrote the theist would dismiss it.

Guess the rest of you atheists will just have to live with the rest of us theists ... fairy tales and all .......

Indeed. And it isn't a problem really. Well not usually anyway. Its only when people start using their religion to tell others how to live that it becomes a problem. Otherwise I say live and let live and I don't care if you believe in Allah, Jehova, Mithra, Zeus, Santa, or the Tooth Fairy. That's your right.

 

[جوري]

Has anyone forced you to be anything?....... you came to a parochial forum with your own two fingers.....denying a claim in my eyes equates to making a claim ... if theists have not proven to you that there is a God... Atheists haven't proven that there isn't ... we come down pretty evenly matched ... except some of us get a spiritual fulfillment out of believing........which believe it or not has therapeutic benefits, and been proven scientifically. I posted an article a while back about the benefits of faith to grieving/ailing and dying patients ... they had a substantially better outcome health wise and even passing wise compared to those who believe in nothing ... so I suppose even nature/science favors spirituality..... hence it made it the endogenous equivalent of antidepressants....... prayers are known to allow for the production of certain the neurochemicals the same way a prescribed (SSRI) would....
So I guess when it comes down to it, it is sort of like the schizophrenic who displays positive signs and the schizophrenic who displays all negative signs...... you fulfill a quota one way or the other (Believing/not believing) but you are still a schizophrenic!
peace

 

[Joe98]

…spiritual fulfilment ........which believe it or not has therapeutic benefits, and been proven scientifically……the benefits of faith to grieving/ailing and dying patients ... they had a substantially better outcome …….

Yes, we atheists know of these studies and are aware of the benefits.

The benefit falls into the same category as where you give a patient a piece of sugar and tell them it is medicine – “... they had a substantially better outcome …….”


From this we learn that:

On a Pagan forum you must believe superstitious nonsense and become a pagan

On a Muslim forum you must believe superstitious nonsense and become a become a Muslim

On a Christian forum you must believe superstitious nonsense and become a Christian.

 

[جوري]

No! it isn't a placebo affect! it is an actual neurochemical release of seratonin similar to that an outcome of a (seratonin reputake inhibitors).... minus the nasty side affects as it is endogenousely produced!
Thank you for those prolfic three lines.... I don't know what the rest of us would have done without your deep insight?
a quick defintion
superstition

Main Entry: su·per·sti·tion
Pronunciation: "sü-p&r-'sti-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English supersticion, from Anglo-French, from Latin superstition-, superstitio, from superstit-, superstes standing over (as witness or survivor), from super- + stare to stand -- more at STAND
1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary

 

[Pygoscelis]

Has anyone forced you to be anything?....... you came to a parochial forum with your own two fingers

Yes. This is true. I didn't say otherwise. Why are you so defensive?

.....denying a claim in my eyes equates to making a claim

Well thats the old broad vs narrow definition of "atheist". Both are used. The former meaning people (like me) who don't accept a belief in God. The latter are people who claim that there is no God. This is really just semantics though I suppose. It leads to some of the silliest exchanges on web forums sometimes.

... if theists have not proven to you that there is a God... Atheists haven't proven that there isn't ... we come down pretty evenly matched

That's a falacy. Because something can't be proven to exist or not exist doesn't make its being and not being equally likely. Would you say that invisible aliens standing next to you right now at this moment are as likely to exist or not? You can't prove they do or don't.

... except some of us get a spiritual fulfillment out of believing........which believe it or not has therapeutic benefits, and been proven scientifically.

This is pretty much exactly what I was stating in the post above. People don't believe or not believe due to logic and reason they do so for emotional and psychological needs to be met.

you fulfill a quota one way or the other (Believing/not believing) but you are still a schizophrenic!
peace

Ok this part of your post is just plain odd. You are stating that everybody is a schizophrenic?

 

[جوري]

No! I am stating you are in the same boat! whether you display positive or negative signs... it is my own twist on a metaphor!

I find your alien /God claim to be comparing apples and oranges... aliens haven't left us with so much biblical text and miracles in the books which prove to be true modern day... we can get into those but I think it would be pointless from your point of view....

I like your use of the word semantics... I don't wish to be lost in them... this is a 70 page thread... I don't wish to rehash any of it...

Wasn't aware I was being denfensive? My humble apologies... I get less than 3 hours of sleep every day........

 

[Pygoscelis]

No! it isn't a placebo affect! it is an actual neurochemical release of seratonin

Thank you for those prolfic three lines.... I don't know what the rest of us would have done without your deep insight?
a quick defintion
superstition

Again with the defensive posture. Why? Why the biting sarcasm? Nobody is being impolite towards you. But you are starting to tempt me.

And as for if it is a placebo effect, are you certain that you know what a placebo effect is? And are you aware of the research that has been done on the power of positive thinking? People have raised white blood cell count, changed brain chemistry, etc among other physical manifestations just due to belief or positive outlook, religious or otherwise. Humour also makes a difference.

The factor MOST vital in recovery under this paradigm isn't belief or non belief, but positive outlook and the ability to laugh (including at ones self).

 

[جوري]

yes quite aware considering it is what I do for a living!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Oh, on a complete side note, is there any way to edit a post on this forum? I can't find it. I'd have fixed the missed quote mark above if I knew how.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Seeing as you are still a limited member, you are not able to edit your posts until you are a full member (after writing 50 posts)... so I edited your post for you .

(See: http://www.islamicboard.com/faq/limited-member/#faq_limited_mem_ber )

Peace.