Atheism

[root]

Hi Genius....

We have to be careful when discussing "Mutational Change" and "law's of nature".

An example of mutational change would be in the "evolvement" of single celled organisms that mutate and are able to reproduce their mutation by replication and thus a new life form has begun quite clearly under the rules of mutation. One cannot argue against this principle for it is a known fact.

Mutation is quite different from "Rules of nature" but do seem linked. An example of a rule of nature is "Eyes must be close to brain"..... Eyes as we know them today definately are not mutations as a single factor.

Evolution will use. (Mutational change, Time, Survival of the fittest\luckiest. Adaptation)

Each one being as important as the next. Another prediction of evolution other than "Hobit" man would be that some species would not need to evolve since their environment would remain the same. Indeed the deepest darkest places of our planet is the ocean floor. When a fossil was discovered of a species thought to have gone extinct was actually found "Living". This was a great thing for it allowed science to compare it's accuracy of what they felt the species was like compared to the real thing. We were not dissapointed.

Regards

Root

 

[Abdullah_Afghan]

Allow me to tell you one little story about the existance of God.

In 1993 I took a taxi. The taxi drive was an African. I had physics books from uni with me. When he saw my books, suddenly he said "Are you studying science?" I replied "Yes".

He said "Do you believe in God?"

I answer "Yes I do believe in Allah."

He laughed.

I said nothing.

Then he said "How can you study scinece and still believe in God?"

I said "Why not?"

He looked at me with surprise and said "Well I was a Muslim back home - meaning in his motherland- but when I came in this country and learned about science then I stopped believing in God."

I said "That is your choice."

I did not talk any more at that moment but he insisted to continue his discussion by talking freely.

He said "How come you Muslims believe that their is a secret table in the skys named Lawhi Mahfuz, while if such a table exist it Must be very big and all the information about everything must be written on it? But you see today about a very ordinary matter people write 1000s of books. How come you thing such a big but secret table exists?"

I looked at him and let him to finish his sayings. When he ended his words I told him that you can see we humankind discovered computer and made it and then programmed it. I continued by saying to him that you can go to a computer store and ask for the CPU or even for a simple floppy disk. Then look at the memory of the CPU and the floopy disk. Can you tell me how come we humans made that CPU with such a big storing capacity and stored billions of data in it which are not seeable to our eyes? What about the simple floppy disk?

He looked at me and said "What is your point?"

"Well, if we can make our own secret information storing chip or floppy disk or CPU which contains billions of data, then why and how God Almighty must not have a very much advance system to store those data, which we call that system Lawhi Mahfuz?" I said.

He stopped talking for a moment and suddenly said "I was misled by blind thinking. He loudly said "O Almighty Allah please forgive my sins for thinking astray about your power and knowledge and ability." He said his Shahada and when he dropped me at my residencial place, he told me "I am not going to take money for this trip from you." I resisted his request and paid him $11.50 and told him "It is not just for me to take advantage of your request as it meant to be like this that we meet in such a circumstances. I do not want to contaminate my reward with your request."

I saw tears in his eyes and he replied "I will not forget this lesson in my life and will try to think wisely before making any irrational decision in my mind about any matter."

I forwelled with him. Three years latter I saw him in a mosque. He was praying and was very devoted to Islam. He said "Brother, I learnt a lot since then and now I know that the signs of the creation speak for themselves about the presence of Almight God. I have no doubt in my heart and mind about God Almighty because now I study about the science of the creation."

I advised him to study about the "physics of creation". We never saw each other for eight years until I caught a taxi one day. He was the driver. The brother said "Now I am in peace with God."

Wassalaam.

 

[yoshiyahu]

That is an incredibly touching story, Abdullah_Afghan.

 

[Uthman]

Indeed. A very touching story.

 

[root]

"Well, if we can make our own secret information storing chip or floppy disk or CPU which contains billions of data, then why and how God Almighty must not have a very much advance system to store those data, which we call that system Lawhi Mahfuz?" I said.

Yes it was a nice story. Broke free from science since a "Chip" or "floppy" cannot contain billions of Bytes and A CPU contains none since it merely processes data and not store it.

 

[Uthman]

"Get it right" says root.

 

[root]

Hi Osman

Well, I do like to remain within factual content. Hence I remain silent in a lot of religous threads.

Root

 

[Uthman]

Actually, you could prove useful in that way. Stop people from getting carried away . . . . Careful not to play on their nerves though! lol.

 

[Ibn Syed]

:lol: lol

 

[scared one]

didnt expect science to answer that question and it can't because that knowledge far beyond science and whatever is far behind science cannot be answered by anyone dealing with science, guess scientists are not the smartist. i kind of had a feeling science couldnt answer all our questions dam you people are ignorent, sorry no offense., but one thing is for sure we will never know the real truth til death come. we wont know wether any diety exists or not, read the encloypedia the r section look for religon, for now we will just stick with our religous beliefs that their is a god out their, you can't see him, you can't feel him he has no shape, color, and whatever else a human has. didn't any of you guyz take a theology course it studys anything dealing with god.

 

[Bittersteel]

what's Lawh Mahfuz???

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Its explained here.

 

[root]

I read the link with a slight wry smile. I like the way they claimed "the evidence" from nothing then claimed that intelligence came before matter. Which of course has no basis of proof at all. It's on par with claiming that an alien species created the universe before matter came into it. Whilst this point could not be proven false, it could not be proven true either. Same goes for the hypothosis you linked to.

Regards

Root

 

[Lateralus63]

Human beings have multiple ways of perceiving events, i would classify these into two types, belief in what you cant see, what you cant understand intricately, but you still know its there because you believe it in your heart, and the second type would be belief in proof, how things are logically tested and proved and we have full belief in it because it has been proved.

Now it doesnt take a genius to say science cant prove everything, quite right it cant do that, but we still "believe" in the unseen, God as a belief concept has existed for over 2000 years, thats a pretty long time, logically it must be significant.

Empericism, is not a valid arguement to try and prove God,

If God wanted to test mankind, yet God was fully 100% provable then it wouldnt be a test in the first place.

Therefore God is not 100% provable, maybe only to a certain percentage using rational and creative thought we can prove god to an extent where we have to believe it in its entirety.

Science cant explain acupuncture, how it is able to physically affect the body by inserting needles, but it still works. Same thing, just because science or emperical thought cannot accept God in its wing of 100% accuracy does not mean God does not exist.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Lateralus63,
While I can understand the thrust of what you've said, I should point out a few inaccuracies, in the hope of promoting understanding further.

Human beings have multiple ways of perceiving events, i would classify these into two types, belief in what you cant see, what you cant understand intricately, but you still know its there because you believe it in your heart, and the second type would be belief in proof, how things are logically tested and proved and we have full belief in it because it has been proved.

Just because you believe something "in your heart", it does not constitute knowledge. Faith is not knowledge, by definition.

Now it doesnt take a genius to say science cant prove everything, quite right it cant do that, but we still "believe" in the unseen, God as a belief concept has existed for over 2000 years, thats a pretty long time, logically it must be significant.

It may well be significant, but not logically significant.

Empericism, is not a valid arguement to try and prove God,

You are right to say that empiricism is not a valid argument, because empiricism is not in fact an argument at all. It is a philosophical school of thought, named after the Greek philosopher Sextus Empiricus. Famous empiricists include John Locke, George Berkeley and David Hume.

Therefore God is not 100% provable, maybe only to a certain percentage using rational and creative thought we can prove god to an extent where we have to believe it in its entirety.

Rational and creative thought? Rational thought should be sufficient to provide a proof - creative thought is surely more useful for art, poetry or literature.

Science cant explain acupuncture, how it is able to physically affect the body by inserting needles, but it still works. Same thing, just because science or emperical thought cannot accept God in its wing of 100% accuracy does not mean God does not exist.

Since my post so far has been quite negative, I'll end on a positive note. I fully agree that god cannot be proved or disproved using the methods of science currently available; acupuncture is an excellent example to use in this connection.

Peace

 

[Lateralus63]

Peace

Just because you believe something "in your heart", it does not constitute knowledge. Faith is not knowledge, by definition

This isnt about knowledge, this is about percieving events and the world around us by using cornerstones in thought, either by proof, (science), or belief (religion), so my point is, God is fully perceived in belief, belief is strengthened when you strengethen the reason for God's existance for example, the intricacy of all creations.

It may well be significant, but not logically significant.

Logically in the way of, "If this event or concept can exist for 2000 years in the hearts of men it must be significant", why is say this, because to say "it is insigificant" is illogical, because its outside the boundries of common sense, which logic is also existant in.

You are right to say that empiricism is not a valid argument, because empiricism is not in fact an argument at all. It is a philosophical school of thought, named after the Greek philosopher Sextus Empiricus. Famous empiricists include John Locke, George Berkeley and David Hume.

Sorry for writing it incorrectly, what i meant to say is, to accept everything around you because you've experienced it by your senses, God cannot be seen, touched, felt, heard, or tasted save in the metaphorical sense. Basically scientific ways of thought, that only by sensing and experiencing we can truly accept...is incorrect..to god.

Rational and creative thought? Rational thought should be sufficient to provide a proof - creative thought is surely more useful for art, poetry or literature.

Rational is only one side of the coin, rationality is based on logic and experience, creativity is based on inspiration and belief, these are the two sides of thinking it....logically, or creatively, if one hopes to find God correctly, he must either apply correct logic and/or creative thought or both.

I fully agree that god cannot be proved or disproved using the methods of science currently available; acupuncture is an excellent example to use in this connection.

Thank you for your words

Peace

 

[ayub]

there are signs of allah subahnatallah. its Allah who created the world, us human being everything that we see today is created by God all mighty

 

[root]

there are signs of allah subahnatallah. its Allah who created the world, us human being everything that we see today is created by God all mighty

For a thread titled "Atheism" and we have already established that their is no proof to validate your hypothosis. I question if you have read this thread.

Without Prejudice

Root

 

[Lateralus63]

My point being. How could one even begin to seperate the Placebo effect and faith in reality compared to faith as a placebo effect.

Peace

Right. lets get it clear first, the placebo effect is an effect induced and excarbated by ones expectation.

Now to say faith is a placebo effect is to say faith is an expectation

Faith is not expectation. Clear logic.

Expectation is accompanied with a desire for a result

Where as faith is simply compulsive, we dont expect results.

Now the placebo effect only works since the desire for a result is so strong so that result arrives, however since faith is totally devoid of desire for result, you cannot call it a placebo effect.

p.s i have to compliment you on a most excellent thought challenge you've given me.

Peace

 

[root]

A person's beliefs and hopes about a treatment, combined with their suggestibility, may have a significant biochemical effect. Sensory experience and thoughts can affect neurochemistry. The body's neurochemical system affects and is affected by other biochemical systems, including the hormonal and immune systems. Thus, it is consistent with current knowledge that a person's hopeful attitude and beliefs may be very important to their physical well-being and recovery from injury or illness

Source:http://skepdic.com/placebo.html

Lateralus63 - Where as faith is simply compulsive, we dont expect results.

I hear what you are saying. But the other side of that coin is to achieve an improvement from a medical condition through belief is to say you God exists. For no improvement then your God knows best.

I think it is wrong to suggest you do not expect a result. I was under the impression that your result would be what you beleive will happen to you upon your death, unless you don't mind wether you go to heaven or hell........ Since to have a faith one must confront this question.