Atheism

[Issa]

Ahh Pascal's Wager in a Muslim guise. Have you thought, what if you and the atheist are wrong? What if the Catholics are right? Then you have wasted your life here and really annoyed God and so you will burn in Hell forever. But what if you, the atheist and the Catholics are wrong? What if the Jews are right? Then you have wasted your life here and really annoyed God and so you will burn in Hell forever. But what if you, the atheist, the Catholics, and the Jews are wrong? What is the Sikhs are right? Then you have wasted your life here and really annoyed God and so you will burn in Hell forever. But what if you, the atheist, the Catholics, the Jews and the Sikhs are wrong? What if the Buddhists are right? Then you have wasted your life here and really annoyed God and so you will burn in Hell forever.

You see I can do this all day. What you come down to is that there is not just two choices - atheism and Religion. There are dozens of viable options and millions of theoretical options. How do you know your God is the right God given He is not the only God on offer? There are dozens of good reasons for believing. This is not one of them.

Salaam,

Actually, I didn't say it was WHY I believed. Only that it was a perk. I haven't wasted my life here, either. I will have conducted myself better than some and not as well as others. Plain and simple. Allah knows best. I didn't say Jews and Christians will rot in hell, do you know why? because... Allah knows best.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam


Dont worry sister i got ya covered,

HeiGou How do we know Air is what we are breathing yet we cant see it?
Scientists prove it through reasoning and science

So when an illiterate man who comes out of a cave with words that shake this world if you understood them in arabic, how would you believe that?

And how do we know Islam is the right path? Understand it study it, we dont deny jews and christians of the time their Torah and injeel were revealed. They arent wrong, some are. But everywhere no one is perfect only the religion of Islam is. And the big question how do we know God exist? Dont give me the theory that Religion is suppose to keep man in check because if thats the case The jewish religion could have dominated the world by now.

Third What is your arguement and what are you trying to say?
So if we are wrong, that must mean that a few of the 2 billion people on this earth who have proved Christianity and judaism wrong Thousands of times they must be wrong too?

I congradulate a athiest because an athiest loosk for logic and reasoning of God. So i advise you To Listen to Zakir Naik.

Only Allah swt judges what happens after we die.

How many contradictions are there in the bible and torah? Countless.

How many in the Quran? ZERO.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings mahdisoldier19,

I know your post is addressing HeiGou, but since I'm an atheist I hope its OK if I respond to this too.

HeiGou How do we know Air is what we are breathing yet we cant see it?
Scientists prove it through reasoning and science

I don't really understand what point you're making here. There are standard tests to determine the presence of the constituent parts of air.

So when an illiterate man who comes out of a cave with words that shake this world if you understood them in arabic, how would you believe that?

That's an interesting point. Muslims (obviously) make great claims for the power of the Qur'an in Arabic. As someone who doesn't understand Arabic, I can't comment on that, but I can say that I've always found English translations to be flat and uninspiring in terms of content.

And the big question how do we know God exist? Dont give me the theory that Religion is suppose to keep man in check because if thats the case The jewish religion could have dominated the world by now.

Eh? In case you hadn't noticed, different religions have had huge amounts of control over different cultures throughout history. It's not surprising that no single religion has dominated the whole world, since there is no single global culture.

So if we are wrong, that must mean that a few of the 2 billion people on this earth who have proved Christianity and judaism wrong Thousands of times they must be wrong too?

Who has proven Judaism and Christianity wrong? If anyone had actually done this then no-one would believe in those religions any more.

I congradulate a athiest because an athiest loosk for logic and reasoning of God. So i advise you To Listen to Zakir Naik.

I think you're making reference to a statement made by Dr. Zakir Naik there, aren't you? I've watched him debating, and while his knowledge and recall of the Qur'an and the Bible are truly impressive, his arguments are weak. Of course, they don't sound weak to someone who agrees with him...

Only Allah swt judges what happens after we die.

Bodily putrefaction is what happens after we die.

How many contradictions are there in the bible and torah? Countless.

How many in the Quran? ZERO.

There are lots of apparent contradictions in the Qur'an, which is why so many refutations have to be written by Muslim scholars, even though, apparently, "truth stands out from error."

Peace

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

Gibson I Challenge you Bring any contradiction Foreward ANY in the Quran.

For every contradiction you put, i will find Many more from the bible.

I give you that open challlenge

But nonetheless i respect you on your post and i appreciate you responding kindly.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Gibson I Challenge you Bring any contradiction Foreward ANY in the Quran.

For every contradiction you put, i will find Many more from the bible.

I give you that open challlenge

But nonetheless i respect you on your post and i appreciate you responding kindly.

I certainly don't deny there are contradictions in the Bible - for the most part I believe it's a load of nonsense anyway, and I've pointed out some of those contradictions myself on the forum.

Regarding the Qur'an, I said there were apparent contradictions in it. By this I mean that they look to me like contradictions, but according to Muslims they are not.

Here's one that I still find impossible to understand. It looks like a clear contradiction to me, yet apparently it is not. It regards surah 2 ayah 62 and others, and you can read posts by some kind members of the forum patiently trying to explain it to me on this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/4573-surah-2-62-need-opinion-people-book-jews-christians-muslims-alike-2.html

Read from post 20 on. There was an earlier thread on it too, but it seems to have been deleted.

(Notice that by the end I'm even more confused than before.)

Peace

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

Refutation of that Surah 2:62


Those who believe (in the Qur'an).
And those who follow the Jewish (scriptures),
And the Christians and the Sabians,
Any who believe in Allah
And the Last Day,
And work righteousness,
Shall have their reward
With their Lord on them
Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Now if you dont read the Quran in Arabic context. My friend you will be even more confused then you are now.

You can 2 approaches to this a Concurrent or Conflicting approach.

Concurrent Ok ill Agree with you its talking about the Jews and christians and Sabaans BUT Does it Say Paradise? It mentions a reward. It is like i tell you i will 1 son who believes 1 million dollars. But ill give a son who believes more deeply 1 billion dollars.


Conflicting approach. Now if we are approaching it with a conflict. We state that At that moment of time and even today The christians worship the trinity. And jews denied Christ as theyre savior and Jibril. Bu the christians before the worship of the trinity worshiped Allah swt and the jews and sabians that worshiped Allah swt and worked in rightousness will indeed taste their reward. So by approaching it with a conflict you state Oh Why doesnt it just say they will recieve Paradise?

Because we dont know if they will or not? it is logical that only that knowledge is with Allah swt.

if Allah swt said they will go straight to paradise? Then that would mean every christian jew and sabian of that time that worked hard will go straight to paradise? But how do we know? There are christians and jews who work towards rightousness and Allah swt yet some of their actions may anger Allah swt. That is why Allah swt has the answer alone whether or not they will taste paradise or reward.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Regarding the Qur'an, I said there were apparent contradictions in it. By this I mean that they look to me like contradictions, but according to Muslims they are not.

Here's one that I still find impossible to understand. It looks like a clear contradiction to me, yet apparently it is not. It regards surah 2 ayah 62 and others, and you can read posts by some kind members of the forum patiently trying to explain it to me on this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/4573-surah-2-62-need-opinion-people-book-jews-christians-muslims-alike-2.html

I'm a little bit surprised by this comment since I referred you a while ago to my completed and detailed article on the subject:
http://www.islamicboard.com/139684-post49.html

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you had forgotten, but at any rate, there's the refutation of the alleged contradiction.

Regards

 

[HeiGou]

Dont worry sister i got ya covered,

HeiGou How do we know Air is what we are breathing yet we cant see it?
Scientists prove it through reasoning and science

Well we can feel it too. No one has ever had a problem dealing with air.

So when an illiterate man who comes out of a cave with words that shake this world if you understood them in arabic, how would you believe that?

As I said, there are good reasons to believe. The previous post was not an example of this. As it happens I also do not believe what you have said, but I accept that many Muslims do believe this and it seems a reasonable basis for belief to me.

And how do we know Islam is the right path? Understand it study it, we dont deny jews and christians of the time their Torah and injeel were revealed. They arent wrong, some are. But everywhere no one is perfect only the religion of Islam is. And the big question how do we know God exist? Dont give me the theory that Religion is suppose to keep man in check because if thats the case The jewish religion could have dominated the world by now.

Well Jews do not actively convert so it would be hard for them to dominate the world. I do not follow how the rest of your argument goes. How do we know God exists? As far as I can see there is no proof He does.

Third What is your arguement and what are you trying to say?
So if we are wrong, that must mean that a few of the 2 billion people on this earth who have proved Christianity and judaism wrong Thousands of times they must be wrong too?

My argument is that of all the reasons to believe, those cited above were bad ones. Nature does not show "God's fingerprints". Regardless of whether you believe He created the world or not, there is no observable evidence that He did. Certainly the evidence cited ("I think the world is beautiful and I can't think of a better reason other than God") is not a convincing argument to anyone who thinks about it.

I congradulate a athiest because an athiest loosk for logic and reasoning of God. So i advise you To Listen to Zakir Naik.

Ahhh, I'd rather bathe in mud.

Only Allah swt judges what happens after we die.

How many contradictions are there in the bible and torah? Countless.

How many in the Quran? ZERO.

Hmmm. How many contradictions in Jane Austen's _Mansfield Park_?

Do you think this is a good argument? I'd just ask, how many contradictions according to whom? May I ask neutral third party observers in both cases or do I have to rely on believers from each Faith?

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

First, i dont think you gave relevant answers

Second, I remember someone told me that the Prophet sws said when you argue with blind people Just tell them bye

So my friend in this case you are blind and i will tell you Bye.

but before i conclude,

Yes i think this is a good arguement. Because 2 billion followers of christianity believe their book to be the book of God when in fact it has alleged contradictions that i dont God would ever have put in his holy book supposdly.

You can bring anyone from different faiths, its not faith error Its all Modern Science errors in the bible.

 

[HeiGou]

First, i dont think you gave relevant answers

I am sorry to hear that. Are you sure you understood them?

Second, I remember someone told me that the Prophet sws said when you argue with blind people Just tell them bye

So my friend in this case you are blind and i will tell you Bye.

Well it has been a short pleasure, but no less treasured for that.

but before i conclude,

Yes i think this is a good arguement. Because 2 billion followers of christianity believe their book to be the book of God when in fact it has alleged contradictions that i dont God would ever have put in his holy book supposdly.

Sure. It has alleged contradictions. You, or Dr Naik, allege them. But they probably do not allege them any more than you allege, or even recognise contradictions in the Quran. Yet I could find people who claimed there were such contradictions. Believers believe what they want.

As for Christians, they do not depend on the literal text of the Bible in the same way Muslims do. It is utterly irrelevant how many contradictions you think you can find.

You can bring anyone from different faiths, its not faith error Its all Modern Science errors in the bible.

Que? You think that until recently Muslims did not think that the Quran told them things that were in contradiction to the Quran?

 

[cihad]

The Main Question Is Why

If Ur Atheist Then Why Are U Alive
If There Is No God Then You Have No Morals To Live Up To
...you Might As Well Go And Kill Yourself Now

 

[HeiGou]

The Main Question Is Why

If Ur Atheist Then Why Are U Alive
If There Is No God Then You Have No Morals To Live Up To
...you Might As Well Go And Kill Yourself Now

I think that being good makes you happy. And conversely whatever makes you happy, in the sense of really happy and in the long run, must be good. It seems obvious to me that it is better to love, and be loved, by one woman than have sex with many you hardly know. It seems better to me to work hard, earn your own money, live in your own house, than to steal. It seems obvious to me that drinking to excess or taking drugs is only going to impair your mind and ruin your life.

Now I do not need God to believe any of those things. They seem self evident and clear to me. Do you think they are irrational and can only be supported by an appeal to the divine?

 

[Bertsura]

The Main Question Is Why

If Ur Atheist Then Why Are U Alive
If There Is No God Then You Have No Morals To Live Up To
...you Might As Well Go And Kill Yourself Now

You do not need to believe in God to be a moral person. You just need to realize that you are a human being first and you cannot treat people poorly. That is what real human nature is all about. Personally, I find it offensive that some people assume that a person who does not believe in God has no moral compass.

And no, atheism is not an admission that life ceases to have meaning. I am an atheist and no God will come in and bail me out whenever I experience difficulties in life. I am able to improve myself to overcome my problems; no supernatural power will help me do this. I do not need the idea of God to appreciate the people I know and love, my humanity, and my mortality.

Furthermore, sorry to say this, but contrary to the results of the poll, the existence of God is not an undeniable fact. Do a little bit of research and you will find out that many refutations have been made against this idea.

 

[Cheb]

Greeting to everyone on this forum. I am a first time viewer and poster. I am glad that this discussion is taking place in a civilized fashion despite having 2 opposite views.
I was not able to see every post about this issue so if I repeat anything someone else had said then I apologize.
Now to get my view in.

I would like to say that despite what some may think, there is much more evidence that suggests that there is a God than not. Therefore if we are going to use an Atheists logic (please correct me if I am wrong) that if we cannot prove it then we dont believe in it, then it would be a more logical decisions to believe that there is a God. I mean can you prove that he doesnt exist? No you cant. So why not go with the logical decision?

Here are some things that I found very interesting in science. I would like to briefly talk about Einstein's general theory of relativity. A very interesting point that the theory supports is that Space and time are finite. This means that there is an end to time and space. It suggests that all time already exists. The past and future at one time. Think of it as if we are in a huge box were both time and space exist in a finite form. Now we know that God has already written what is going to happen to us. We also know that God is also seeing things that are happening in both the present and the future. I dont believe that it is a simple coincidence that one of the world's best scientists of all time has a theory that supports the existence of God (Even though he may not have thought about it in that way).
I hope that you guys would read about this carefully because it is very interesting.
Another point I would like to make is my own so I dont have anything to support it. I always hear the question "if God exists then who created HIM, what existed before God?" My answer to that is that the question itself is false. We believe that God has created all things. I am not only talking about living or physical things. God also created emotion, our conscious, and also time! Yes I do not believe time is something that has always existed. It is God who created time. Therefore it is not God who did not exist in the beginning of time; it is time that did not exist. These things are hard to understand because our brains have their limits, we simply cannot think in the 4th dimension and therefore refuse to accept anything within it.

HeiGou "I think that being good makes you happy. And conversely whatever makes you happy, in the sense of really happy and in the long run, must be good. It seems obvious to me that it is better to love, and be loved, by one woman than have sex with many you hardly know. It seems better to me to work hard, earn your own money, live in your own house, than to steal. It seems obvious to me that drinking to excess or taking drugs is only going to impair your mind and ruin your life.

Now I do not need God to believe any of those things. They seem self evident and clear to me. Do you think they are irrational and can only be supported by an appeal to the divine?"

I disagree with this. If you recall "civilized" people did not exist until religion was found. People use to burry their kids alive sometimes, and it was religion that stopped that. Just like it stopped many other wrong things that we do. That fact is, the reason why you think it comes naturally now is because religion and God has taught us that this is the right way. There are billions of people that believe in God and it is through them that these "good" qualities come from. You were not born an atheist. You were born a human being taught these good qualities that have been passed on through generations of believers.
To support my point I would like to point out the African tribes that follow medieval beliefs that have little to do with what any of the three main religions believe. Not all, but many have regular sacrifices and rituals that they view as right. They have not been touched by religion and therefore are stuck in ancient times. That is what happens when religion is not introduced to a community. They only seem self evident and clear to you because it is religion that made them that way. If not for religion you we would still not know how to differentiate clearly between right and wrong. With all due respect, I believe you have turned your back on what has given you those good qualities that you posses.

 

[The Ruler]

this question is addressed to any athiest here....

well this question may have been already asked bbut i v been wanting for ages to ask som1....

anyways...its like if u dont believe in god, do u think that the vast sky and the trees n all that stuff just got created without a creator.

n one more thing do athiests believe in Adam and Hwa (Eve)?

Peace

 

[HeiGou]

Greeting to everyone on this forum. I am a first time viewer and poster. I am glad that this discussion is taking place in a civilized fashion despite having 2 opposite views.

Only two? I'd expect at least twice that!

I would like to say that despite what some may think, there is much more evidence that suggests that there is a God than not. Therefore if we are going to use an Atheists logic (please correct me if I am wrong) that if we cannot prove it then we dont believe in it, then it would be a more logical decisions to believe that there is a God. I mean can you prove that he doesnt exist? No you cant. So why not go with the logical decision?

What is logical about it? If you cannot prove God exists, and you cannot prove that he does not exist, surely the logical solution is to be open minded and become agnostic?

However there is a principle in logic that may help - Occam's Razor. Occam said that when faced with two choices, choose the simpler and least complex. Which is simpler - that the Universe exists and we understand it imperfectly, or the universe exists and we understand it imperfect but outside it all is a bigger and more complex entity which we do not understand at all and have never seen but which sends regular messages to us?

I dont believe that it is a simple coincidence that one of the world's best scientists of all time has a theory that supports the existence of God (Even though he may not have thought about it in that way).
I hope that you guys would read about this carefully because it is very interesting.

I have tried but I do not understand how this theory supports the existence of God in general much less your God in particular.

Another point I would like to make is my own so I dont have anything to support it. I always hear the question "if God exists then who created HIM, what existed before God?" My answer to that is that the question itself is false. We believe that God has created all things. I am not only talking about living or physical things. God also created emotion, our conscious, and also time! Yes I do not believe time is something that has always existed. It is God who created time. Therefore it is not God who did not exist in the beginning of time; it is time that did not exist. These things are hard to understand because our brains have their limits, we simply cannot think in the 4th dimension and therefore refuse to accept anything within it.

How have you shown that that question is false? You have not shown that God did exist before the begining of time. In fact if time only started at the Big Bang, it must follow that God did not exist before the BB because there was neither space nor time for him to exist in. I agree, I cannot think in four dimensions.

HeiGou "I think that being good makes you happy. And conversely whatever makes you happy, in the sense of really happy and in the long run, must be good. It seems obvious to me that it is better to love, and be loved, by one woman than have sex with many you hardly know. It seems better to me to work hard, earn your own money, live in your own house, than to steal. It seems obvious to me that drinking to excess or taking drugs is only going to impair your mind and ruin your life.

Now I do not need God to believe any of those things. They seem self evident and clear to me. Do you think they are irrational and can only be supported by an appeal to the divine?"

I disagree with this. If you recall "civilized" people did not exist until religion was found. People use to burry their kids alive sometimes, and it was religion that stopped that. Just like it stopped many other wrong things that we do. That fact is, the reason why you think it comes naturally now is because religion and God has taught us that this is the right way. There are billions of people that believe in God and it is through them that these "good" qualities come from. You were not born an atheist. You were born a human being taught these good qualities that have been passed on through generations of believers.

I do not agree that civilised people did not exist until religion came along. They did things we view as bad, but then we do things they probably view as bad. The Romans may have killed their baby girls, but they did not burn people at the stake. The pagan Arabs may have kill their girls too, but they did not execute people for saying "I am the Truth". I am not sure it follows. Surely we think it is wrong, whether we are Muslims or not, because we have empathy for our fellow human beings. We can take pity on the infant and see that it is wrong because we would feel it was wrong to do it to us if we were baby girls. Morality is ultimately based on empathy for others and a desire that we are treated well - which means most of us seek to treat others well. What more is needed?

As it happens everyone is born an atheist. This is why religion is taught in schools and why Muslim boys are born into Muslim families and Jewish boys into Jewish families.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Tagrid,

this question is addressed to any athiest here....

well this question may have been already asked bbut i v been wanting for ages to ask som1....

anyways...its like if u dont believe in god, do u think that the vast sky and the trees n all that stuff just got created without a creator.

That is what I believe, since I've never seen any evidence to support the idea that the universe had a creator.

n one more thing do athiests believe in Adam and Hwa (Eve)?

I don't believe they existed, and I'm sure anyone who believes in evolution would agree. I'd be very surprised if you found an atheist who did believe in Adam and Eve.

The Romans may have killed their baby girls, but they did not burn people at the stake.

They threw a few Christians to the lions though! Anyway, the Romans had a religion too. It was a combination of the religion of the ancient Greeks with the worship of emperors as gods in human form.

As it happens everyone is born an atheist. This is why religion is taught in schools and why Muslim boys are born into Muslim families and Jewish boys into Jewish families.

Absolutely right.

Peace

 

[Cheb]

What is logical about it? If you cannot prove God exists, and you cannot prove that he does not exist, surely the logical solution is to be open minded and become agnostic?

However there is a principle in logic that may help - Occam's Razor. Occam said that when faced with two choices, choose the simpler and least complex. Which is simpler - that the Universe exists and we understand it imperfectly, or the universe exists and we understand it imperfect but outside it all is a bigger and more complex entity which we do not understand at all and have never seen but which sends regular messages to us?

So you are saying that you do not believe in God because it is easier not to? What kind of explanation is that?
Besides it is actually the opposite. What is easier, to believe that by some HUGE coincidence everything worked out so perfectly for life to somehow exist, or to say that God simply created all life and all that exists. That is how we exists, HE created us, simple as that!

I have tried but I do not understand how this theory supports the existence of God in general much less your God in particular.

There is no his God or my God, there is God and nothign else.
Let me explain it more then. We believe that God has only put us on this earth for a limited period of time, and what Einstein's theory suggests is that time will eventually end. Get the similarities?
The theory also suggests that all time already exists. That there is no past and future, there is just time. We believe that God sees all taht is happening even if it is not in our immediate present. If you still dont get it then I cant really explain it more. Please think about it and dont react to it.

How have you shown that that question is false? You have not shown that God did exist before the begining of time. In fact if time only started at the Big Bang, it must follow that God did not exist before the BB because there was neither space nor time for him to exist in. I agree, I cannot think in four dimensions.

That is were thiking in the 4th dimension comes in. That was my point, you cant understand how God could have existed without time or space, even thought HE actually created time and space. Time and space did not exist, but God existed. The question was false because you cant ask what existed before God. There was no "before God", just God. If you think that is too complicated well think about it if there was no God, how long has time existed for? was it an infinite number of year before? What was there an infinite number of years ago? it is even harder to understand.

 

[Cheb]

Greetings Tagrid,


That is what I believe, since I've never seen any evidence to support the idea that the universe had a creator.

Is there evidence to suggest otherwise?

I don't believe they existed, and I'm sure anyone who believes in evolution would agree. I'd be very surprised if you found an atheist who did believe in Adam and Eve.

Peace

I believe in evolution and I believe in Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were created when life already existed. If you do some research you would know that homo sapiens and modern humans existed at the same time. The homo sapiens became extinct when competition with modern humans proved too much. Living things evolve only if they need to. Humans have had the least need to evolve since the beginning of their existence.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Cheb,

Is there evidence to suggest otherwise?

No, but since the burden of proof is on your side, you're the one who needs to find the evidence. Also, see the post about Ockham's razor above.

I believe in evolution and I believe in Adam and Eve.

You're the first person I've ever come across who believes this - congratulations!

Adam and Eve were created when life already existed. If you do some research you would know that homo sapiens and modern humans existed at the same time.

I think you might need to be more specific here. Modern humans are homo sapiens, which can be divided into homo sapiens idaltu (extinct) and homo sapiens sapiens (us).

The homo sapiens became extinct when competition with modern humans proved too much. Living things evolve only if they need to. Humans have had the least need to evolve since the beginning of their existence.

So are you suggesting that god interrupted human evolution in order to create homo sapiens sapiens, and the first two he created were called Adam and Eve?

Peace