Atheist Ideology?

[Skavau]

200 years ago it was unthought of for a woman to expose herself in public and now its rampant and deemed to be liberating women.

Debatable. But the fact that women now have as much liberty as men in Secular Societies is a good thing.

200 years ago it was unheard of to leave the parents in a home and now the old mans homes are overpopulated and its deemed normal.

And considering that many pensioners are completely unable to look after themselves, this is a good thing. It was not as necessary 200 years ago to cater for the need of the older generation as the majority did not live as long as the majority do now. Diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinsons were also not understood.

200 years ago it was immoral to speak ill or do other then the wishes of a parent and now its common.

Yes, because of Liberalisation.

200 years ago homosexuals were deemed as foul creatures who have gone against nature and are perverted souls, and now its something natural.

So? I do not deem homosexuality as immoral. You ask me these questions and ask me about perversity when you forget I do not see specific actions as you may do as being immoral.

You appear to be assuming that I automatically hold specific acts to be inherently wrong in themselves.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

you see skavau im saying the only reason you dont see any problem in these acts is because society has moulded you into what you are. You grew up around these acts we deem to be immoral so its natural to you. Nowadays two consenting adults having intercourse is acceptable and fine, marriage is not required.

I ask you how far are mens desires going to take things? If we continue to rule by the rules of men then how long till complete immorality and indecency are rampant. It sickens me that i cant take my own nieces and nephews out without covering their eyes. And yet you see no problem with our society, may Allah open up your eyes.


We need Gods laws, The shariah, only then can we truelly have a justice system worth being implemented in a timeless form, we dont need laws which are changed every year or century !

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Specifically?

it was a rhetorical question actually lol.

I actually see a lot of problems here in the United Kingdom. However, I will ask you to provide a better period of time for this country throughout its entire history. Does one exist? No.

forget the UK, look at what islam did for the people of arabia 1400 years ago. Fornication and adultery was rampant, indulgance in alcohol was common and such immoral acts such as the burial of daughters was encouraged and it was the conviction instilled by islam which helped rid of all these atrocities. Now i ask you to look through history and find a better time in history then the Arabia of 1400 years ago (during the caliphate of Umar ibn Al Khattab).

The UK is a very comfortable and safe place to live for the masses ultimately, however you look at it. There is freedom for everyone in the nation to decide how they want to live their lives and there is capacity for everyone in the nation to do it.

yes and the feasting of desires fits into this nicely, it doesnt matter that the UK has the highest rates of suicide and rape etc. As long as people can "do what they want".

I abhor theocracy, especially theocratic totalitarianism.

No thanks.

well your man made laws havent worked, its about time you try something different.

 

[Skavau]

yes and the feasting of desires fits into this nicely, it doesnt matter that the UK has the highest rates of suicide and rape etc. As long as people can "do what they want".

The UK has neither the highest rates of suicide, nor of rape.

well your man made laws havent worked, its about time you try something different.

I have no interest in being under a system which would limit my rights and the rights of others. Not to mention, Secular society across the world is progressing more than it ever has in history. Why should we resort to Totalitarianism?

I have no reason to babysit someone who gives Thor and spaghetti monster equal value to Allah.

Why ought I not give them equal value? Thor could have just as well created the universe as you assert Allah did.

You dug yourself a grave here. I have nothing more to say to someone with such stupid logic other then pray for knowledge, seriously, pray for it.

So don't.

Respect is not deserved by the ignorant. Ad hominems? Can you tell me what am I to attack if not yourself when you bring nothing to the table to be discussed other then your dillusional self?

Although you say I spout ignorance but you offer nothing in response to show how I am, you merely in return spout rhetoric about how I am spouting ignorance.

In my original reply to you on this thread you address hardly any of it at all. If you have nothing nice to say then ultimately do not say anything at all.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3074845.stm

RAPE INCREASE IN UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5297916.stm

SUICIDE RATE UK (scotland)

you should know that our society is in deep need of reformation.

 

[Skavau]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3074845.stm

RAPE INCREASE IN UK[

Our rape is indeed worse than our suicide rate and it may be increasing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5297916.stm

SUICIDE RATE UK (scotland)

Yes, that is in proportion to the UK. It is not showing how the UK itself has the one of the highest rates of suicide.

you should know that our society is in deep need of reformation.

Yes.

But not Islamic Law. I have no interest nor desire in living under theocratic totalitarianism.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ find me an islamic law which if implemented will cause society to become worser then it is?

 

[Skavau]

^ find me an islamic law which if implemented will cause society to become worser then it is?

I'm talking about Islamic Law's restriction of personal liberties. The issue regarding the safety of Apostates, the issue regarding homosexuality, the issue regarding sex outside marriage or adultery. I've received different views from lots of Muslims regarding these issues and as an Atheist I have a sneaky feeling that my rights would be infringed upon (at least publicly).

There is also the fact that I abhor theocracy out of principle. I firmly believe that religion and state should be kept separate.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I'm talking about Islamic Law's restriction of personal liberties.

liberties are only restricted with just cause

The issue regarding the safety of Apostates,

you promise alegiance to someone and then betray them openly, and then attack then and you expect safety? and this isnt any old king, this is the lord cherisher and creator. Its logical, does the army not behead traitors?

the issue regarding homosexuality,

homosexuals deprive women of husbands and it is common knowledge that the ratio of women to men is greater them men to women therefore it causes serious problems. Again this restriction makes society better ! Also there are many diseases which can be transmitted via homosexual intercourse, and it is always discouraged to use the anal passage due to its impurity.

the issue regarding sex outside marriage or adultery.

This causes far less STD's to spread, it also teaches self control ! It also maintains the shame and modesty of a society thus increasing its respect and honor.

I've received different views from lots of Muslims regarding these issues and as an Atheist I have a sneaky feeling that my rights would be infringed upon (at least publicly).

again, you just want to do what you want to do, little do you care of the consequences.

There is also the fact that I abhor theocracy out of principle. I firmly believe that religion and state should be kept separate.

yes, so that you can do that which you desire

 

[جوري]

You plan to be a homosexual who will have an adulterous extramarital affair while publically declaring you are an apostate?

 

[Skavau]

liberties are only restricted with just cause

This is something that we agree on.

you promise alegiance to someone and then betray them openly, and then attack then and you expect safety?

Except that believing in Allah is a metaphysical viewpoint. I doubt that this is your sincere reason for supporting death for apostasy either. Would you be in full agreement that a Christian who converts to Hinduism ought to be killed by other Christians for being treasonous.

Treason is a crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor.

All Apostasy from Islam would be doing is renouncing the validity of Islam as a universal truth and no longer believing in it. It would be the same as renouncing any other religion. To define it as treason is to ignore what treason is. Treason is not a renouncement of the principles of a state, or the leaving of a religion - it is an attack on a state itself.

and this isnt any old king, this is the lord cherisher and creator.

That means nothing to me. I do not accept the existence of the 'lord cherisher' and 'creator'. It is none of my business and it ought not be any of the states business who considers such so or not. Death for Apostasy is an attack on freedom of expression and freedom of religion.

Its logical, does the army not behead traitors?

I can't speak for all countries, but the UK does not do that. Not that I actually agree with beheading anyone let alone traitors of an army.

homosexuals deprive women of husbands

Their choice. They should not be told what to do by any religion, ideology or otherwise.

and it is common knowledge that the ratio of women to men is greater them men to women

That depends on where you are.

This causes far less STD's to spread, it also teaches self control !

Advocating responsibility teaches control. What you propose is draconian and none of your business.

again, you just want to do what you want to do, little do you care of the consequences.

Do my rights as an Atheist become undermined or do they not? I care about my rights and I care about having my liberty.

yes, so that you can do that which you desire

Yes. I see no reason why a religion which I don't believe in should control my actions or limit them. I value my liberty and I am forever grateful for it.

 

[Skavau]

You plan to be a homosexual who will have an adulterous extramarital affair while publically declaring you are an apostate?

Nope.

But I don't believe in eradicating the rights of others who wish to.

(Although I do not support Adultery and condemn it)

 

[Md Mashud]

Then you don't believe in collective justice but rather selfish desires. If actions can affects others badly, it should be prohibited as prevention, for prevention is better than cure. They are solutions to life problems, with a few sacrifices, we can make the World a better place. We should not be selfish, for it will lead to problems. We should do actions based on whats best for everyone and not the individual.

Thats what Islam is.

 

[Skavau]

Then you don't believe in collective justice but rather selfish desires.

I see no reason why Apostasy from Islam, Homosexuality, Sex outside of Marriage should be outlawed. I do not believe they are wrong to start off with.

I believe in justice for acts which infringe upon the rights of others. I am a very much in a Libertarian school of thought.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ i just explained how each of the acts mentioned above infringe on others rights, if you dont understand it then you are not a free-thinker at all ! rather you only think towards what benefits you as an individual.

ive wasted my time enough with this

 

[جوري]

Nope.

But I don't believe in eradicating the rights of others who wish to.

(Although I do not support Adultery and condemn it)

interesting.. I am willing to bet that you don't know the first thing about Islamic jurisprudence to understand when to punish or ignore an apostate under an ISLAMIC STATE and in that term is the real incite for action.. I'll rather like going along.. you see there exists the same punishment in this here free world, but I don't see you fighting against it-- should I classify that as hypocrisy? You see the Rosenberg's were sentenced to death for just that... treason against the state right here in the good ole U.S of A.


http://www.foia.cia.gov/rosenberg.asp

P.S I enjoy how you condemn adultery, but fight for the rights of people to be adulterers.. interesting!

 

[Md Mashud]

You don't believe they are wrong to begin with is just an opinion, rather then fact in terms of what they have lead to in real life prospects.

 

[Skavau]

interesting.. I am willing to bet that you don't know the first thing about Islamic jurisprudence to understand when to punish or ignore an apostate under an ISLAMIC STATE

You're quite right. I've seen so many different assertions from many Muslims with many different articles - these range from

1. Public Apostasy should be punished.
2. Apostasy in all forms should be punished.
3. Public Apostasy and then attacking the state should be punished.
4. Apostasy should not be punished.

What is your view on the issue?

and in that term is the real incite for action.. I'll rather like going along.. you see there exists the same punishment in this here free world, but I don't see you fighting against it-- should I classify that as hypocrisy? You see the Rosenberg's were sentenced to death for just that... treason against the state right here in the good ole U.S of A.

Here is a condemnation right here then. I condemn their death.

 

[Skavau]

You don't believe they are wrong to begin with is just an opinion, rather then fact in terms of what they have lead to in real life prospects.

Eh?

Do you mean what the actions (of Apostasy, Homosexuality..etc) have led to?

 

[Md Mashud]

Also Skavau, like you find among Atheists disunity in some ideas, there will be also disunity in some ideas with Muslims. We should take upon the majority and not minority on the issue - as according to your Prophet :saw: the majority will always be on the right path.