Atheist Ideology?

[Isambard]

MD, you are misunderstanding him. His 'forever universe' isnt argueing that the big bang never happened, but that the universe has always existed in some form. The same way something is never truely destroyed in this incarnation but rather converted into energy and continues existing. I believe its called a cyclitic universe (could be wrong) which (ironically) Hawkings talks about in his book A Brief History of Time, saying that the universe couldve gone thru countless incarnations each with its own laws which would then fail, collapse, and the energy of the collapse begin another big bang. So the "perfection" of this universe would be the same reason our planet is perfect for human life, just dumb luck. If it wasnt that way, then we wouldnt exist to ask about it.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I have a personal question for atheists, iv wanted to know that since you believe that science and technology has all the answers to life and man is in no need for anything else since science and technology can prove everything right? well the reality of that (as im seeing it) is that science and technology can only prove the how but it cant prove they why.

For example, you have the theory of evolution right? scientists have spent years learning how man started from a monkey and became a man, or the big bang theory and how it all happened, but there is no evidence showing why this was all here, everything is created for a purpose right? then why are we (and everything else) here?

just my personal thoughts.

 

[Md Mashud]

MD, you are misunderstanding him. His 'forever universe' isnt argueing that the big bang never happened, but that the universe has always existed in some form. The same way something is never truely destroyed in this incarnation but rather converted into energy and continues existing. I believe its called a cyclitic universe (could be wrong) which (ironically) Hawkings talks about in his book A Brief History of Time, saying that the universe couldve gone thru countless incarnations each with its own laws which would then fail, collapse, and the energy of the collapse begin another big bang. So the "perfection" of this universe would be the same reason our planet is perfect for human life, just dumb luck. If it wasnt that way, then we wouldnt exist to ask about it.

I didn't misunderstand him, you misunderstood the post. You also seem not not grasp what Hawkins has said, Id suggest to research on quantaum mechanics.

 

[Isambard]

I have a personal question for atheists, iv wanted to know that since you believe that science and technology has all the answers to life and man is in no need for anything else since science and technology can prove everything right? well the reality of that (as im seeing it) is that science and technology can only prove the how but it cant prove they why.

For example, you have the theory of evolution right? scientists have spent years learning how man started from a monkey and became a man, or the big bang theory and how it all happened, but there is no evidence showing why this was all here, everything is created for a purpose right? then why are we (and everything else) here?

just my personal thoughts.

Well, not all atheists believe(d) in evolution, sciences etc. I mean there is the example of the Buddha (though some would argue he was a deist), or Nietzche who was strongly opposed to Darwin's natural selection in favor of his idea of 'Force to Will'. That aside, we humans have a tendecy to see things in patterns, somtimes in non-existant ones. I am not going to commit myself to a definite, but it is of my opinion that the universe and creation has no pattern. Everything is so choatic, random and flawed. Id say our existence is the result of a series of unlikely accidents :thankyou:

 

[Isambard]

I didn't misunderstand him, you misunderstood the post. You also seem not not grasp what Hawkins has said, Id suggest to research on quantaum mechanics.

Perhaps I missed something then, all I see is Hawkings seeing its a pointless question because it would be impossible to know.

 

[Skavau]

I have a personal question for atheists, iv wanted to know that since you believe that science and technology has all the answers to life and man is in no need for anything else since science and technology can prove everything right? well the reality of that (as im seeing it) is that science and technology can only prove the how but it cant prove they why.

Correct.

You cannot derive an is from an ought. No-one with any ethical understanding will say that you can.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Well, not all atheists believe(d) in evolution, sciences etc. I mean there is the example of the Buddha (though some would argue he was a deist), or Nietzche who was strongly opposed to Darwin's natural selection in favor of his idea of 'Force to Will'. That aside, we humans have a tendecy to see things in patterns, somtimes in non-existant ones. I am not going to commit myself to a definite, but it is of my opinion that the universe and creation has no pattern. Everything is so choatic, random and flawed. Id say our existence is the result of a series of unlikely accidents :thankyou:

thats.....a very confusing answer. so your saying im a random creation which was made by a mistake?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

just like to point out...im not out to attack anybody.

 

[Basirah]

thats.....a very confusing answer. so your saying im a random creation which was made by a mistake?

On the contrary, wouldn't an atheist say that you won the lottery in regards to being created!

 

[NoName55]

edit

 

['Abd-al Latif]

On the contrary, wouldn't an atheist say that you won the lottery in regards to being created!

lool so in the words of an atheist im "natures gamble"...thats hilarious

 

[Isambard]

thats.....a very confusing answer. so your saying im a random creation which was made by a mistake?

hmm I guess mistakes more-so applies to our life experiences. Anyways, id like to point out this isnt exactly the "atheist perspective", merely the nihilistic one. I think this quote sums it up nicely.

"We are not what we remember of ourselves. We can undo only what others have already forgotten. Learn from your mistakes, so that one day you can repeat them prescisely. "

(If it looks familiar it is because it is my sig )

A few choice others

"Light in the absence of eyes illuminates nothing. Visible forms are not inherent in the world, but are granted by the act of seeing. Though the world and events do exist independant of mind, they obtain of no meaning in themselves- none that the mind is not guilty of imposing on them"

"Composite things are like dreams. Fantasies. Bubbles. Thoughts. Like a dewdrop and a flash of lightning. A new dress and a burning tire. Waves of sand and sinking ships. The shadow of a statue, and an entry in a diary. A brain tumor and an ice cream sundae. We are thus to be recorded. "

 

['Abd-al Latif]

hmm I guess mistakes more-so applies to our life experiences. Anyways, id like to point out this isnt exactly the "atheist perspective", merely the nihilistic one. I think this quote sums it up nicely.

"We are not what we remember of ourselves. We can undo only what others have already forgotten. Learn from your mistakes, so that one day you can repeat them prescisely. "

(If it looks familiar it is because it is my sig )

A few choice others

"Light in the absence of eyes illuminates nothing. Visible forms are not inherent in the world, but are granted by the act of seeing. Though the world and events do exist independant of mind, they obtain of no meaning in themselves- none that the mind is not guilty of imposing on them"

"Composite things are like dreams. Fantasies. Bubbles. Thoughts. Like a dewdrop and a flash of lightning. A new dress and a burning tire. Waves of sand and sinking ships. The shadow of a statue, and an entry in a diary. A brain tumor and an ice cream sundae. We are thus to be recorded. "

that hasnt really answered my question but thanks.

 

[Isambard]

that hasnt really answered my question but thanks.

The answer is yes

 

[جوري]

No I don't. I don't pretend to know the length of the causal chain. My argument simply explains how infinity must exist and I see no reason to place this onto God.

sure you do. It is part of this universe, it is very much a major player!
I don't see infinity existing in any of the components or part components that you've mentioned.

You're begging the question. Allah is not a necessary being in my world view and neither is any form of God with similar attributes. I could very much be argued Pantheistic - the difference is I see no reason to call what Pantheists call 'God'.

God is very necessary. Nothing functions just because. My kinetic Arctura, though in no need of batteries and runs on my own energy, still had a maker, it didn't just appear on my wrist! And it is certainly not on my wrist just for aesthetics!

Discussions about God are not my only interests.

Except that it isn't. It is a testament to me being opened up to the topic of philosophy and then discussing it after formulating viewpoints.

It doesn't matter if only interest or part interest. It is intrinsical, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here wasting each other's time-- I am sure the both of us have better things to do.

If human beings had a innate desire to worship, then a lot more dictators who carved personality cults would have been a lot more successful. Humans value freedom more and systems involved in totalitarianism and dictatorial regimes know this. This is why such systems attempt to call themselves 'freedom'.

That is another judgment reached after an inadequate consideration. I don't see what God has to do with dictators, freedom, totalitarian.
If we are going to go by your philosophy then forgive me for pointing out, Atheists and their regime can tote up a dictator/ totalitarian destruction more than all the religionists combined!
Mao xedong, Enver Hoxha, Stalin, Pol Pot (saloth Sar) SungIl .. the list goes on and on. Godless dictators are just as guilty.. and frankly the lot of them have no room in this topic!

I didn't have any understanding then. Or any significant awareness of existence.

Indeed you didn't but you became aware of existence! Consider the womb as a grave

I generally know what will happen when I fall asleep.

I may dream. Or I may not and then I will wake up hours later.

You don't know what sort of dream you'll have once you fall asleep, you are bed bound but a part of you without reasoning or observation is else where.. thus you don't know what awaits, anymore than you knew what kind of life you'd have outside the womb, anymore than you now know what will await you beyond death. You really have no way of knowing until you get there!

No-one.

If no one has replaced her, out of your own confession, I don't see how anything in existence is here to replace another..

The fact that we are able to comprehend so much about our existence is value in itself.

That makes no sense... where is the sense of justice?.. say you were a miserable 67 year old who spent his life being a Mafioso, and just last week you happen to kill an 18 year old who looked at you the wrong way, though he was an honor student and lived his life in the service of his community and his family .. what kind of justice or value is there in that?

That's not my conclusion in the argument. That is only my 2nd point.

And it has not been touched upon.

You conclusion can't fall whimsy to how a topic will unravel!
try to make a point early on and stick to it and then work to prove it.. or at least make a case for it!

So you then agree that eternality exists. The chain of existence must go back to infinity.

Externality can't exist in any of the components or part components you've mentioned, I have already stated that earlier! All of it in whole or in part is ephemeral yielding to different cycles. But ending nonetheless!

They do not disprove the universe. In fact, the universe is very much being referred to in those articles.

indeed referred to as 'ending' 'dying' in both articles. And anyone who has done some basic level physics will attest to the same. I can't claim to know higher mathematics.. I have done calculus one and two back in undergrad, can barely remember any of it.. but I don't think you need higher math to reach some very vestigial conclusions known to us all.

Of course this is the jump.

The universe itself is not (by definition) a cause at all. It is instead the sum total of all causes, all effects, all entities and all phenomenon. And because the chain of causality is infinite, every cause within it has its own cause. Every single one.

Sum of total causes or a cause of total causes doesn't deflect away that it had to start at some point and by same token shall end at some point. And that it is here for a reason and a purpose not for mere idle play!

I am sure. However, the chain of causality will continue.

Chain of causality by consensus will end.. What you hold here is a belief.. no different than a theist holding on to a belief!

You seem to disagree only on one point
You do not challenge ex nihilo, nihil fit. You do not challenge an infinite chain of uncaused causes. You do not challenge the very basis of my conclusion. You only challenge that the eternal existence is the universe. You say it is Allah.

I believe I have been doing just that with each statement! You can't prove to me eternity in part or in whole.. It will end I guarantee it! it is happening as we speak.. just matters composing from dying stars into new ones is never of the same caliber as the fist.. it will dwindle with time until there is none left!
Perhaps a few billions of years seems like forever to you, but at some point it will be unlivable.. if there is no fostering of life, it will end.. once just one cause in your chain is broken, the rest will ensue

Eh? You appear to be entirely unaware of my reasons.

I haven't seen 'reason' !

No.
It is just that in this particular argument we are not talking about the design argument.

We are talking about infinite existence

This has to do with all that is in existence that can be a potential 'eternal' these are the components of our closed system!
And they all need to be accounted for, you can't ignore the part, your calculations will be off, if you neglect a few million things that you deem negligible!

I really have to run for now

 

['Abd-al Latif]

The answer is yes

then do u find it more believeable for a human being to be created by chance but not a creator?

 

[Md Mashud]

Even chance requires opportunity and opportunities need to be created

 

[Isambard]

then do u find it more believeable for a human being to be created by chance but not a creator?

Yep. Id say our biological imperfections are great examples of this.

 

[Md Mashud]

Yep. Id say our biological imperfections are great examples of this.

That makes the false assumption that our biology should be perfect if God exists .

 

[Skavau]

sure you do. It is part of this universe, it is very much a major player!
I don't see infinity existing in any of the components or part components that you've mentioned.

You do not see infinity in 'everything that exists'?

God is very necessary. Nothing functions just because

That much is true.

My kinetic Arctura, though in no need of batteries and runs on my own energy, still had a maker, it didn't just appear on my wrist! And it is certainly not on my wrist just for aesthetics!

This much is correct.

It doesn't matter if only interest or part interest. It is intrinsical, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here wasting each other's time-- I am sure the both of us have better things to do.

Consideration on existence itself is intrinsical.

That is another judgment reached after an inadequate consideration. I don't see what God has to do with dictators, freedom, totalitarian.

Many totalitarian systems involve personality cults or formulate the idea of obedience towards the state.

If we are going to go by your philosophy then forgive me for pointing out, Atheists and their regime can tote up a dictator/ totalitarian destruction more than all the religionists combined!

This is irrelevent.

Mao xedong, Enver Hoxha, Stalin, Pol Pot (saloth Sar) SungIl .. the list goes on and on. Godless dictators are just as guilty.. and frankly the lot of them have no room in this topic!

#
I was referring to the fact that if worship was intrinsic then dictatorships and totalitarian states which involve worship, ritual or obedience towards the state would be more successful.

You don't know what sort of dream you'll have once you fall asleep, you are bed bound but a part of you without reasoning or observation is else where.. thus you don't know what awaits, anymore than you knew what kind of life you'd have outside the womb

This much is true.

That makes no sense... where is the sense of justice?.. say you were a miserable 67 year old who spent his life being a Mafioso, and just last week you happen to kill an 18 year old who looked at you the wrong way, though he was an honor student and lived his life in the service of his community and his family .. what kind of justice or value is there in that?

None whatsoever.

You conclusion can't fall whimsy to how a topic will unravel!try to make a point early on and stick to it and then work to prove it.. or at least make a case for it!

I have been doing just that. You have been the person referring to the Design Argument and asserting that worship is innate.

Sum of total causes or a cause of total causes doesn't deflect away that it had to start at some point and by same token shall end at some point. And that it is here for a reason and a purpose not for mere idle play!

No reason whatsoever to believe that it is here for any specific purpose.

You can't prove to me eternity in part or in whole..

Yes I can, ex nihilo, nihil fit.

There you go.

Perhaps a few billions of years seems like forever to you, but at some point it will be unlivable.. if there is no fostering of life, it will end.. once just one cause in your chain is broken, the rest will ensue

But existence itself would still be other than life.

This has to do with all that is in existence that can be a potential 'eternal' these are the components of our closed system!
And they all need to be accounted for, you can't ignore the part, your calculations will be off, if you neglect a few million things that you deem negligible!

I have considered the Design Argument.

I have also dismissed it.