Atheist Seeking Conservative Community

[fschmidt]

I posted "Atheist Seeking Church" [Link Removed as its not necessary] to a Christian forum, but so far I haven't found what I am looking for. I realize that an Atheist, by definition, cannot be Muslim. But historically, Muslims have been very tolerant of other beliefs. So I was wondering if there is a place for an Atheist family in the Muslim community, as guests who share similar conservative values? If so, I would visit my local Islamic Center and see how well Islam would work for us.

 

[fschmidt]

I tried posting a link to give the context, but apparently that isn't allowed. So I will copy the context (my relevant posts from the Christian forum) here:

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I am an atheist who is disgusted with modern decadent culture. I am looking for a church to join that has good moral values. I also want this for my kids so that they can associate with decent people. I have the following criteria:

1. Must have a church in El Paso, TX where I live.

2. Must be tolerant enough to accept an atheist who only views Christ as an intelligent moral man whose advice is worth following.

3. Must strongly support monogamy and promote marriage.

4. Must have a strict dress code in church. No tattoos, body piercings, or immodest dress.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
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I thought I would give an update on my search. I have visited 2 Christian churches, Mormon and Sovereign Grace Ministries. These services were 3 hours and 2 hours for a total of 5 hours in church so far. In all that time, I haven't heard a single mention of any moral or ethical issues. The entire focus was on faith in Christ, which of course means nothing to me as an Atheist. I think I could put up with 80% faith and 20% ethics. If I remember the Gospels from reading them a long time ago, Christ did have a lot to say about moral issues, and I generally agree with Christ. Do any churches discuss this kind of thing? So I am disappointed so far. I will visit Greek Orthodox next week.
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[Sigma]

I posted "Atheist Seeking Church" [Link Removed as its not necessary] to a Christian forum, but so far I haven't found what I am looking for. I realize that an Atheist, by definition, cannot be Muslim. But historically, Muslims have been very tolerant of other beliefs. So I was wondering if there is a place for an Atheist family in the Muslim community, as guests who share similar conservative values? If so, I would visit my local Islamic Center and see how well Islam would work for us.

I'm sorry, i'm slightly confused. You wish to be part of the "Muslim community" as guests? And partake in Islamic activities?

A noble aim if it is so, but i'm not sure what you mean by "how well Islam would work for us" and "a place in the Muslim community". What kind of place in the Muslim community? and what do you mean exactly by how well Islam would work for us?

 

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum(Peace be unto you),

From the sounds of it, you want to learn more about Islam correct? That's fine really, I am sure you can go into a mosque and speak to the Imam or anyone who will discuss things with you. And don't worry, they won't turn you away because your an Athiest lol.

Or you could use these forums to do just that aswell (make a thread, ask a few questions etc.), in the process you will hopefully have understood Islam alot better.

 

[aadil77]

Welcome

do visit your local islamic centre and see for yourself what muslims are like, rather than just the bad apples the media likes to showcase

 

[Muslimman]

Hi there,
It will help you alot to tell where you are and what kind of help you exactly need and why.

 

[جوري]

:welcome: aboard..

mods:
is this the right section for this thread? we'll have to wait for approval with each post.. perhaps you can move it where it is more suited?

 

[siam]

what do you mean by "conservative values"?

---depending on perspective---one could call Islam "radically progressive"

 

[fschmidt]

I'm sorry, i'm slightly confused. You wish to be part of the "Muslim community" as guests? And partake in Islamic activities?

A noble aim if it is so, but i'm not sure what you mean by "how well Islam would work for us" and "a place in the Muslim community". What kind of place in the Muslim community? and what do you mean exactly by how well Islam would work for us?

When traveling with my family, I noticed how the environment (meaning the people) affected the behavior of my kids, particularly my daughter. A conservative environment, like Muslim or Orthodox Jewish, had a very positive effect. I also felt happier in these environments.

So yes, I would like my family to spend time around conservative people. Beliefs don't concern me very much. So I have no problem attending a religious service even if I don't believe what is said, as long as the conservative values are there. A religion would work for us if this is possible.

From the sounds of it, you want to learn more about Islam correct? That's fine really, I am sure you can go into a mosque and speak to the Imam or anyone who will discuss things with you. And don't worry, they won't turn you away because your an Athiest lol.

Or you could use these forums to do just that aswell (make a thread, ask a few questions etc.), in the process you will hopefully have understood Islam alot better.

I like to learn. I enjoyed reading John Glubb's books "The Life and Times of Muhammad" and "A Short History of the Arab Peoples". But at this point, I know what I am looking for in a religion. The only question is which is the best fit. Once I choose a religion, I will certainly spend more time learning about it.

do visit your local islamic centre and see for yourself what muslims are like, rather than just the bad apples the media likes to showcase

Thank you, I will. I posted my request to a number of forums and the most reasonable responses so far have been here. The Christian responses were mixed. And my fellow Atheists consistently gave horrible responses.

what do you mean by "conservative values"?

---depending on perspective---one could call Islam "radically progressive"

Yes words can mean whatever you want them to mean. What I mean is basically consideration for others. A woman who dresses provocatively, for example, is showing a complete lack of consideration for men, selfishly feeding her own ego at men's expense. If you look at history, you will find certain kinds of behavior that are consistently present in rising cultures. These include honesty, female modesty and chastity, valuing honor, and strong families.

 

[PouringRain]

Welcome to the forum.

If you seek out conservative values and moral codes, you will certainly find them. I think one thing you need to consider is that as long as you are an atheist, if you attend a church, a mosque, or a temple, there will always be those who seek to make you a believer in God. That is not something you can escape in those religions. If that is not something you want for your family, then you would be better looking for conservative atheist communities.

I could suggest to you some highly conservative churches to try out, but I won't, because this forum has a policy against promoting other religions, and I respect forum rules. You could take the advice of others and try going to your local Islamic center and speaking to someone there about your questions. But as I said..... be it Christian or Islamic community, you will always find individuals who will be concerned about your unbelief in God.

One thing you are asking, that I don't know that anyone here has answered (apologies if I missed the answer)..... you asked if an Islamic community would accept your family and allow you all to participate in community events/ activities, knowing that you all are atheist. Perhaps someone could answer to this more specifically, and could explain what things you may and may not be accepted in participating in. Perhaps also you could be more clear on what exactly you would like to participate in. For example, are you wanting to participate in prayer or are you just wanting to attend services? Are you wanting to participate in things such as community fasting? Islamic education (if available in your area)? Eid celebrations? Etc.?

 

[fschmidt]

I think one thing you need to consider is that as long as you are an atheist, if you attend a church, a mosque, or a temple, there will always be those who seek to make you a believer in God. That is not something you can escape in those religions. If that is not something you want for your family, then you would be better looking for conservative atheist communities.

I have no opinion about what my family members should believe, so I have no problem with religious people trying to convert my family. I do have a reservation about people trying to convert me, but not for the usual reasons. Two Christians tried to convert me, with the result that both became atheist. I don't want to convert people to atheism because this usually harms their morality. So that is my only reservation about people trying to convert me.

Perhaps also you could be more clear on what exactly you would like to participate in. For example, are you wanting to participate in prayer or are you just wanting to attend services? Are you wanting to participate in things such as community fasting? Islamic education (if available in your area)? Eid celebrations? Etc.?

My biggest interest is for my kids to meet other kids in the group. The details of how they meet is less important. I am quite willing to attend any kind of service or activity so that my family can meet other people in the group.

 

[fschmidt]

I visited my local Islamic Center and met with someone there. I was impressed. Islam is my favorite religion at this point. Of course the Muslim that I spoke to tried to convince me that my atheism is wrong, and I understand why he feels this way given his beliefs. My question now is whether an atheist can be accepted by the Islamic community. I didn't think that the Muslim that I spoke with could answer this because he was preoccupied with trying to change my beliefs. I think the only place that I can find the answer to this question is in the Quran which I plan to study.

I want to comment on the other religions and why they fail. Judaism fails because it is racist. I say this being ethnically Jewish myself. Because my wife isn't Jewish, the local Orthodox rabbi rejected my family and said that there was nothing he could do for us. I find this completely absurd. Christianity wasn't a bad religion in the past, but it has gone rotten. It is ironic that Christianity was a refuge against the decadence of the Roman Empire in its early history, but now Christianity has been fully absorbed by modern liberal decadence (with the possible exception of Anabaptists). Modern Christianity offers no real resistance to modern culture. Whatever is the fashion of the day is simply accepted by modern Christianity. So Christianity seems pointless to me.

 

[BoredAgnostic]

I tried posting a link to give the context, but apparently that isn't allowed. So I will copy the context (my relevant posts from the Christian forum) here:

----------------------------------------------
I am an atheist who is disgusted with modern decadent culture. I am looking for a church to join that has good moral values. I also want this for my kids so that they can associate with decent people. I have the following criteria:

1. Must have a church in El Paso, TX where I live.

2. Must be tolerant enough to accept an atheist who only views Christ as an intelligent moral man whose advice is worth following.

3. Must strongly support monogamy and promote marriage.

4. Must have a strict dress code in church. No tattoos, body piercings, or immodest dress.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
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I thought I would give an update on my search. I have visited 2 Christian churches, Mormon and Sovereign Grace Ministries. These services were 3 hours and 2 hours for a total of 5 hours in church so far. In all that time, I haven't heard a single mention of any moral or ethical issues. The entire focus was on faith in Christ, which of course means nothing to me as an Atheist. I think I could put up with 80% faith and 20% ethics. If I remember the Gospels from reading them a long time ago, Christ did have a lot to say about moral issues, and I generally agree with Christ. Do any churches discuss this kind of thing? So I am disappointed so far. I will visit Greek Orthodox next week.
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This is kinda off-topic, but do you mean revealing tattoos? If a person has a tattoo on their arm but wear long sleeves to church is that okay? Also by body piercings do you also include the single piercing on each ear? Do you have an aversion to tats/piercings in general or just in places like Church?

 

[Thucydides1987]

Yes words can mean whatever you want them to mean. What I mean is basically consideration for others. A woman who dresses provocatively, for example, is showing a complete lack of consideration for men, selfishly feeding her own ego at men's expense.

Well, you seem like you just need to leave the West then -- although avoid going to East Asia as an alternative, since women there are essentially the same as Western women in behaviour. You joining a religious community won't stop women (in America, I presume?) from dressing provocatively.

 

[fschmidt]

This is kinda off-topic, but do you mean revealing tattoos? If a person has a tattoo on their arm but wear long sleeves to church is that okay? Also by body piercings do you also include the single piercing on each ear? Do you have an aversion to tats/piercings in general or just in places like Church?

If a person has a tattoo that is always covered in public, that is okay. But displaying a tattoo or ear piercing beyond conservative earrings for women in public is not okay.

There are two related reasons for this. One is simply the modern symbolic meaning behind these things. These things have come to be associated with modern culture which I oppose. As an example the figure of the swastika has meanings in Eastern religions. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the swastika's shape, but it has come to be a symbol associated with Nazism and for that reason it is considered offensive. I dislike modern liberal culture as much as I dislike Nazism, so I oppose tattoos and piercings as symbols of this culture.

The related reason is historical. If you visit a museum and see how people's appearance varied with culture, you can't help but notice that in all classic cultures people respected the human form in its natural state. Only culture in decline or primitive cultures do people try to modify the natural human form. So tattoos and piercings are a sign of a declining culture, and this is no accident because liberalism is destroying western culture.

 

[fschmidt]

Well, you seem like you just need to leave the West then -- although avoid going to East Asia as an alternative, since women there are essentially the same as Western women in behaviour. You joining a religious community won't stop women (in America, I presume?) from dressing provocatively.

Where exactly would you suggest I go? The world is increasingly homogeneous, unfortunately. And I have traveled quite a lot.

I actually don't care that much how most people behave. I only care that I can be part of a community that behaves well. So belonging to a conservative religious community would work for me almost anywhere.

Your user name is Thucydides1987. Have you read Thucydides and are you familiar with Athenian culture during the time of Thucydides? This was my favorite in culture in history. The Athenians well understood all the issues that concern me.

 

[Thucydides1987]

Your user name is Thucydides1987. Have you read Thucydides and are you familiar with Athenian culture during the time of Thucydides? This was my favorite in culture in history. The Athenians well understood all the issues that concern me.

I have studied him, as well as the functions of Athenian democracy in grad. school. I'm not sure what issue concern you that the Athenians understood, but I know that they certainly were well versed in government, justice, and philosophy. There is a lot that our democracies today can learn from Athens.

Where exactly would you suggest I go? The world is increasingly homogeneous, unfortunately.

I was going to suggest the middle east, but you may not exactly like the standard of living there (although you can, i suppose, try the UAE). Anyway, I don't think that getting away from provocative-looking women will solve your problems; I have a feeling that your dissatisfaction is more profound than such a triviality as that of a woman with a short skirt, no?

 

[fschmidt]

I have studied him, as well as the functions of Athenian democracy in grad. school. I'm not sure what issue concern you that the Athenians understood, but I know that they certainly were well versed in government, justice, and philosophy. There is a lot that our democracies today can learn from Athens.

Athenians were very concerned about morality. Their highest value was virtue which Plato tried to replace with truth (and eventually succeeded in western culture). Athenian dramas are mostly about issues of morality. I remember Thucydides talking a lot about the moral superiority of Athens.

Athenian women dressed modestly. The rules of conduct for Athenian women were rather similar to that of Islam. Adultery (sex with other men's wives) was severely punished. The idea of women having political power was only discussed as comedy, by Aristophanes in Lysistrata which gives a pretty clear idea of the role of women in Athenian culture.

The connection between morality and the role of women is no accident. Morality and promiscuity are incompatible because when women are free to provoke men, men will compete with each to pursue women and will throw out morality in the process. This is demonstrated repeatedly in history. All rising cultures restrained women, and when these restraints were lost, the culture went into decline.

I was going to suggest the middle east, but you may not exactly like the standard of living there (although you can, i suppose, try the UAE). Anyway, I don't think that getting away from provocative-looking women will solve your problems; I have a feeling that your dissatisfaction is more profound than such a triviality as that of a woman with a short skirt, no?

Yes my dissatisfaction is with modern culture in general including immorality, dishonestly, and superficiality, all of which are connected to women with short skirts. Before considering the middle east, I will need to understand Islam better. But as I said before, just having a decent community in my area is good enough for me, even if general society is worthless.

 

[aadil77]

Yes my dissatisfaction is with modern culture in general including immorality, dishonestly, and superficiality, all of which are connected to women with short skirts. Before considering the middle east, I will need to understand Islam better. But as I said before, just having a decent community in my area is good enough for me, even if general society is worthless.

Actually you will find immorality in the middle east as well. Currently there is no ideal islamic state which is free from evil, closest place maybe afghanistan

 

[Thucydides1987]

The connection between morality and the role of women is no accident. Morality and promiscuity are incompatible because when women are free to provoke men, men will compete with each to pursue women and will throw out morality in the process. This is demonstrated repeatedly in history. All rising cultures restrained women, and when these restraints were lost, the culture went into decline.

I slightly understand where you're coming from, but I cannot be sympathetic to the sexism in what you're saying. Even though more women act promiscuously today, consider that not all do (much of this image that you have comes from the media), and that the situation today where women are relatively free in western society is much better that what was happening in, say, the Victorian Era, where they were oppressed and condemned to the "separate spheres", and did not have the same rights as men did.