Atheist Seeking Conservative Community

[fschmidt]

Actually you will find immorality in the middle east as well. Currently there is no ideal islamic state which is free from evil, closest place maybe afghanistan

I have been to 3 Islamic countries; Egypt, Jordan, and Malaysia. Egypt and Jordan seemed dysfunctional. Malaysia seemed fine. I am curious to know what you think is the problem with modern Islamic countries. From what I know of history, Islam was pure and ethical for several generations after Muhammad, but become corrupted as it merged with Persian culture. The time of Abbasid rule sounds much like modern America with wealth and productivity, but growing corruption, decadence, and something like feminism which eventually destroyed this culture. Most of what I know of Islamic history comes from Glubb's "A Short History of the Arab Peoples".

 

[Thucydides1987]

men will compete with each to pursue women and will throw out morality in the process.

Men would compete with each other regardless of women's voluntary provocation. Lol, are you advocating arranged marriages, then?

 

[fschmidt]

I slightly understand where you're coming from, but I cannot be sympathetic to the sexism in what you're saying. Even though more women act promiscuously today, consider that not all do (much of this image that you have comes from the media), and that the situation today where women are relatively free in western society is much better that what was happening in, say, the Victorian Era, where they were oppressed and condemned to the "separate spheres", and did not have the same rights as men did.

I forgive you for your lack of sympathy because most people are incapable of transcending their culture and your culture is undoubtedly liberalism. I am sexist in the sense that I believe men and women are different. But I don't think that they should be subjected to different laws. The Victorian Era may not have been perfect, but it was better than now. Women generally are less capable of thinking for themselves than men are, and so will behave more homogeneously. Virtually all women in Western culture are promiscuous by historical standards. In all rising cultures, women were expected to be virgins at marriage and very few modern western women meet this requirement.

 

[aadil77]

I have been to 3 Islamic countries; Egypt, Jordan, and Malaysia. Egypt and Jordan seemed dysfunctional. Malaysia seemed fine. I am curious to know what you think is the problem with modern Islamic countries. From what I know of history, Islam was pure and ethical for several generations after Muhammad, but become corrupted as it merged with Persian culture.

We believe that when muslims stopped practising islam properly - gave into ideas such as nationalism, secularism, that is what caused the islamic empire to break up, and things just got worst from there. Right now there is no islamic state that rules purely by islamic law, so although you might get some countries enforcing a form of islamic law you will never get the real deal. Theres alot of corruption in most modern muslim countries, you won't want to live there, you won't be guaranteed justice.

 

[fschmidt]

Men would compete with each other regardless of women's voluntary provocation. Lol, are you advocating arranged marriages, then?

There is always some competition, but much less in conservative cultures. I support "arranged" marriages in the sense of having someone help to arrange that couples meet, but not in the sense of being forced into marriage. The movie "Arranged" shows how this works for Orthodox Jews and Muslims (and is a great movie).

 

[Ramadhan]

I can suggest you two ideal cities where I think you will feel happy: Makkah and Madinah.

Unfortunately, due to your non-muslim status, you won't be allowed to even enter.

 

[fschmidt]

My question now is whether an atheist can be accepted by the Islamic community. I think the only place that I can find the answer to this question is in the Quran which I plan to study.

I am reading the Quran now. I just read 3:118 which says:

"O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason."

So I guess this settles it, an atheist cannot be accept by the Islamic community. Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[*charisma*]

Hi fschmidt!

I want to commend you on your desire to raise your children in a better environment and to allow them to be open towards other paths of faith.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are they?

I read through the thread, and I don't think you should have a problem finding muslim friends for your kids or raising them in an Islamic environment if those are your intentions. I personally have an atheist friend who I enjoy discussing religion and sharing theories and ideas with, it's really enlightening and she considers me a good friend. I've never felt compelled to become atheist nor have I ever tried to convince her to become a Muslim, but I do enjoy speaking about Islam to her, and she really respects me and my religion and has supported me on many occassions. Now I'm not saying all atheist and Muslim relationships are going to be as similar as ours, however this is not something impossible or difficult either.

To answer your concerns in your first post, Muslims should show respect and kindness to those of any background and faith. Usually a mosque has sermons on Fridays which anyone is free to attend, and through out the week there are prayers and perhaps evening classes and events depending on the mosque itself. The sermons range from various Islamic teachings and topics. The men and women are generally segregated. Both the men and woman should be dressed modestly (women cover their heads and cover their bodies with nonconforming attire according to the islamic dresscode, and men can wear anything as long as it also follows the Islamic dress code). If you go to a local mosque, you may want to ask some of the brothers there a little bit about the classes they provide, maybe activities or events that they have in which you and your family may be interested in participating in.

Concerning the topic of monogamy, Islam does not condemn polygamy however it's not strongly advocated either, but marriage is. We consider marriage to be very important and a beautiful aspect of life and combined with the obligation of chasteness, it allows us to keep our priorities in line and when we feel we are getting close to where we think we are prepared for marriage, we have a better insight on the responsibilities and committments that are expected of us as spouses.

I am reading the Quran now. I just read 3:118 which says:

"O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason."

So I guess this settles it, an atheist cannot be accept by the Islamic community. Am I understanding this correctly?

Islamically we're not allowed to get too close with a nonMuslim because they may influence us due to a close emotional bond, and in result we may stray away from our religious obligations. So the meaning of that ayah is basically that we shouldn't get too close to those who condemn and reject our religion lest they have intentions to change or harm us. However, we are encouraged to spread Islam and teach others about our religion and create bonds in that respect where we can benefit others positively and at least warm their hearts through our kindness, and love and devotion to our religion.

 

[Amat Allah]

In The Name Of Allah The Most Compassionate The Most Merciful

Peace be with you May respected and noble brother fschmidt:

what I have learnt from Islam is to respect others and deal with them kindly and justly... and if you would be our neighbor my respected brother then I swear by the Lord of heavens and earth that I won`t treat you but according to what Allah taught me through His noble Book (Qur`aan) and His Messenger Muhammad Bin Abdillah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him); with kindness respect and justice... Allah never taught us to hate others but the wrong things that others do and say and taught us to not harm others for their mistakes but to advice them respectfully and never wait from them to accept our advices...

we are not allowed to deal with people unjustly and be aggressive , we are allowed to fight others but in combat to defend our selves religion homes families and nation to defend the rights of others and if you will read and understand Islam right you will realize this high meaning...Allah didn`t create us to hate each other harm each other or to kill each other...

Allah says:"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. (190)" 1:2:190.

Allah says:"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. (13)" 26:49:13

and Allah says:"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. (56)" chapter 27:Sura 51: verse 56 this is the purpose of creating us the Most pure purpose ever to be Allah`s slaves and when that happens; Happiness peace comfort and satisfaction will fill the hearts and will be humble pleased and free from all the pleasures of this life...

and the verse which you have mentioned above was talking about the ruling in taking enemies as allies, and Allah pervented us from this to not tip off the secrets of the Muslims Muslim country and govrnment to enemies and I think logically everyone knows why...

what have you done to be hated? for being an athiest? let me tell you my respected brother that this matter is between you and your Lord and He Is the One Who will judge you when you stand before Him in the Day of Judgement not us the slaves and servants of Allah...what is in our hands is to teach you about the truth and the real purpose of this life to advice you and show you the way to love for you and all creation of Allah all goodness and real happiness, not to hate you and treat you badly and as I said before in another place; how would love fills a heart when hatred is taking its place...

The prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his companions( May Allah be pleased with them) had lived with their neighbors of different faiths so peacefully and treated them in the best of manners with kindness respect and generosity and I won`t change this now by any mean...

you are my brother and all males and females in this world are my brothers and sisters and will treat you upon this no matter who you are and where you are till the last breath of mine and no matter what...

and Allah knows the best...

May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless happiness no matter who you are Ameeeeeen

with all my respect, your sister:

Amat Allah

 

[fschmidt]

Thanks everyone, I will continue reading the Quran and see what else I find.

My kids are 12 and 14.

I am reluctant to go to the sermon at the mosque because I wasn't invited. I called the Islamic Center and said I was interested in Islam and I (with my wife) was invited to talk to someone there, but he just gave me the Quran and some literature and didn't invite anything more. I will call back after I finish the Quran and see if they think it makes sense for me to visit the sermon.

Islam and Mormonism are the options that I am currently considering. I will keep investigating.

 

[aadil77]

Thanks everyone, I will continue reading the Quran and see what else I find.

My kids are 12 and 14.

I am reluctant to go to the sermon at the mosque because I wasn't invited. I called the Islamic Center and said I was interested in Islam and I (with my wife) was invited to talk to someone there, but he just gave me the Quran and some literature and didn't invite anything more. I will call back after I finish the Quran and see if they think it makes sense for me to visit the sermon.

Islam and Mormonism are the options that I am currently considering. I will keep investigating.

Hmm, well do go along to any sermons they may have, don't be put off by anyone

Other than sermons, usually mosques have weekly gatherings after evening prayers where the imam will talk about the prophet's biography - its referred to as 'seerah'. They can be very beneficial even if you have no interest in islam, ask around about them.

 

[Amat Allah]

you are very wellcome my respected brother, May Allah preserve you children and protect them from all harms Aameen

you need no invitation from anyone to be in Allah`s house, the mosque is for everyone and its door is always opened for all Allah`s creature from Jinn and Mankind, go to any Masjid you want and there sit with others normaly and listen and May Allah comfort your heart and fill it with peace and gives you the good of this life and of the hereafter Aameen

here you are these are two e mails for a good shaikh, his name is Mutahhir:

[email protected]

[email protected]

try to send him your Questions on both e mails in shaa Allah...

and this is a moderated Muslim chat giving live lectures and there; you can contact directly with the scholars in shaa Allah and ask them about anything you want:

www.chatislam.com

May Allah open for you the doors of real happiness and success Aameen

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi fschmidt


I would strongly recommend you read a biography of Prophet Muhammad to understand the Qur'an alot better. I would recommend you read;

Martin Lings, Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources

http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=280


You will understand how the Quran is based on the events of the life of Prophet Muhammad, and how that relates to the different episodes of history the Muslims go through as time progresses.

So understanding the biography of Prophet Muhammad is equally as important as studying the Qur'an itself.


also, please see this link for a brief biography on his life online;
http://www.islamreligion.com/category/82/



Peace.