Atheists and vegetarianism

[KAding]

Humans > Animals I am afraid.

Intellectually you mean? And you think that gives us the right to eat them? Why?

This is a bit charged question perhaps, but normally developed adults are also considerably more intellectually capable than, say, babies or mentally challenged people. Does that mean we can eat them to? :exhausted If not, why not?

 

[marwen]

Interesting that you would say that, as the difference to me is kinda obvious. So my question would be: do you think animals are sentient? Can they feel emotions and pain? Do you think the same is true for plants?

Surely you agree that the physiology of the animals we eat is radically different from that of plants? I mean, plants do not have a central nervous system and even if they did they do not have a brain to process pain sensations. Surely that makes these two kinds of live radically different?

Yes, from the perspective of the animal's feelings you may be right (though I'm not really sure plants don't have feelings), but is that immoral ? I don't think so, I can say that animals will be dead anyway, or I can say that in order to preserve the life of humans, we can allow ourselves to use animals if plants are not sufficient for our surviving.

Although I feel sorry for animals to be killed, I think emotions or feelings are not a good argument to make a decision. I may be wrong btw.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

To an extend yes. It is impractical to completely respect all animal life. You need to do pest control for example. We also need to do animal testing for potential life-changing medicines. I'll let atheists who have less or no qualms eating meat explain themselves further though, as I am generally unconvinced by any other arguments.

Do you not feel guilty when eating plants because they also have feelings and can also feel pain but it is just that we cannot hear them scream or in distress but that does'nt mean they don't feel pain.

Our ears cannot hear the screams or distress of a plant but that does not mean they do not get distressed or feel pain or happiness.

Just because they have one or two less senses that does not mean that they should be regarded any less than animals. If you had a disabled brother or sister then would you regard it any less of a being than yourself just because they had one or two senses less than you? Similarly plants are living, breathing and feel pain and also scream and feel joy so do you not feel any guilt for killing killing and eating them?

 

[KAding]

Do you not feel guilty when eating plants because they also have feelings and can also feel pain but it is just that we cannot hear them scream or in distress but that does'nt mean they don't feel pain.

Our ears cannot hear the screams or distress of a plant but that does not mean they do not get distressed or feel pain or happiness.

That would be news to me. I was always under the impression that the scientific consensus is that plants do not feel pain, let alone experience emotions like happiness. I know that plants as organisms in one way or another respond to stimuli, but they simply do not have the higher brain functions (or brain at all) that would be required to interpret that pain, be sentient and, thus, to be capable of 'sensing' that pain.

Just because they have one or two less senses that does not mean that they should be regarded any less than animals. If you had a disabled brother or sister then would you regard it any less of a being than yourself just because they had one or two senses less than you? Similarly plants are living, breathing and feel pain and also scream and feel joy so do you not feel any guilt for killing killing and eating them?

I should if I were convinced it were true. Alas I'm not.

You, however, appear to believe it is true, then why aren't you feeling guilty?

 

[KAding]

Yes, from the perspective of the animal's feelings you may be right (though I'm not really sure plants don't have feelings), but is that immoral ? I don't think so, I can say that animals will be dead anyway

How do you mean? Everyone will eventually die anyway, not just animals .

... or I can say that in order to preserve the life of humans, we can allow ourselves to use animals if plants are not sufficient for our surviving.

I would agree, but plants are sufficient for our survival. Surely the many vegetarians on this planet are proof of that? Overall vegetarians even live longer, more healthy lives.

The real question is whether it is moral to cause pain (not to speak of the wasted resources) just for pleasure, namely the pleasant sensation of a nice tasting steak?

Although I feel sorry for animals to be killed, I think emotions or feelings are not a good argument to make a decision. I may be wrong btw.

I would tend to agree. But the arguments of vegetarians are not based on emotions or feelings, but on a rational conviction that causing one being pain for your own pleasure is morally wrong. Personally I think it is pretty hard to argue with that.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

That would be news to me. I was always under the impression that the scientific consensus is that plants do not feel pain, let alone experience emotions like happiness. I know that plants as organisms in one way or another respond to stimuli, but they simply do not have the higher brain functions (or brain at all) that would be required to interpret that pain, be sentient and, thus, to be capable of 'sensing' that pain.


I should if I were convinced it were true. Alas I'm not.

You, however, appear to believe it is true, then why aren't you feeling guilty?

It looks like Science disagrees with you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(paranormal)

 

[Amadeus85]

I think that vegetarianism is some way of making the atheist's life better,more spiritual, something deeper than materialism. The way how they treated animals is on the other side renessaince of paganism, which began in second half of XIX centuries.
The atheists who care about animals usually in same time are ok with abortion of children, which kills 200 000 children each year in Germany only and murdered in USA since the end of WWII till now more human lifes than Hitler killed in death camps during WWII.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Here's some more coal for your fire. I feel far more empathy for a mouse than I do for a freshly fertilized human egg. Not sure why you want to turn this into an abortion thing though. Thats 2 threads down the hall.

 

[Predator]

The vegetarians practiced by these Atheist and Hindu Brahmins have double standards in their feelings for different living things and talk tosh like "all living things have a right to live" . LOL . The same atheist/brahmin would cry at an animal but then show cruelty to vegetables like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KtmbonxBv8


There are plenty of disadvantages with a vegetarian diet as well

http://holistic-nutrition.suite101.com/article.cfm/disadvantages_of_going_veg

A balanced diet is what is required with both veg and meat is what is required

 

[Amadeus85]

Here's some more coal for your fire. I feel far more empathy for a mouse than I do for a freshly fertilized human egg. Not sure why you want to turn this into an abortion thing though. Thats 2 threads down the hall.

That's not suprising, 60 years ago some people thought that jews are less important than a life of a mouse.

As I said, vegetarianism is some way of making atheist life to have deeper meaning, than just eating, sleeping and working. Of course it is a failed attempt, as they will never achieve peace in their life since they trusted in false doctrines of enlightment and lost belief in the Creator.

 

[KAding]

The vegetarians practiced by these Atheist and Hindu Brahmins have double standards in their feelings for different living things and talk tosh like "all living things have a right to live" . LOL . The same atheist/brahmin would cry at an animal but then show cruelty to vegetables like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KtmbonxBv8

Right. So lets assume you are right and vegetables have emotions and can feel pain, which I don't believe. Buts lets just assume it. Why would this only be relevant to vegetarians? Don't meat-eaters also eat vegetables? And did you know that to produce one pound of beef you need 16 pounds of grain? After all, the cow needs to be fed as well!

So assuming vegetables feel pain, how can it possible morally be just to waste all those vegetables to produce one pound of meat?

If you are convinced that plants have feelings just like animals do, why don't you act on that information and try to limit the suffering you are causing? Don't we have a moral obligation to organize our life in such a way that we don't cause suffering?

There are plenty of disadvantages with a vegetarian diet as well

http://holistic-nutrition.suite101.com/article.cfm/disadvantages_of_going_veg

A balanced diet is what is required with both veg and meat is what is required

It is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet as a vegetarian. The link you posted tells as much! Of course there are risks if you are not aware of what you eat, but that is true with meat as well!

None of these responses actually address the moral dilemma associated with causing suffering in the whole production of meat. Even if we assume plants can feel pain that doesn't mean it becomes irrelevant. Even if we assume a vegetarian diet is unhealthy, it doesn't mean the problem is any less real.

 

[KAding]

I think that vegetarianism is some way of making the atheist's life better,more spiritual, something deeper than materialism.

For me it has nothing to do with spiritualism. Why would I seek to become more 'spiritual' when I don't believe in God. That doesn't make sense.

This doesn't address the issue, it is just an attack on atheists. I don't think people should be so quick to dismiss these difficult moral questions.

The way how they treated animals is on the other side renessaince of paganism, which began in second half of XIX centuries.
The atheists who care about animals usually in same time are ok with abortion of children, which kills 200 000 children each year in Germany only and murdered in USA since the end of WWII till now more human lifes than Hitler killed in death camps during WWII.

Right. Hitler killed lots of people and pro-abortion people kill babies, so the moral dilemma regarding eating meat is resolved? These are unrelated subjects. You can call some vegetarians hypocrites, fine. But that doesn't help us resolve the issue in the least.

 

[KAding]

It looks like Science disagrees with you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(paranormal)

Ehm. That links to a wikipedia article about "the study of a paranormal phenomenon".

It also says:

In the scientific community as a whole, paranormal biocommunication has been subjected to much criticism, and is largely regarded as a pseudoscience. Overall, there is little concrete, universally verified evidence suggesting that there is any truth to the theory, and it is therefore apt to receive a great deal of contempt among scientific circles

...

Many skeptics of the theory also state that, since plants lack nervous or sensory systems, they are not capable of having feelings, or perceiving human emotions or intentions, which would require a complex nervous system. The primary emotional center in the animal brain is believed to be the limbic system which is absent in plants, just like the rest of the nervous system.

How can this article on a paranormal phenomenon possibly be construed as somehow representing a scientific opinion on plant perception?

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Ehm. That links to a wikipedia article about "the study of a paranormal phenomenon".

So what reasons do you have not to believe that plants feel emotion or pain? Have you looked deeply into the subject or do you just not want to believe its true?

What do you think of carnivores who kill other animals for food?

 

[KAding]

So what reasons do you have not to believe that plants feel emotion or pain? Have you looked deeply into the subject or do you just not want to believe its true?

Yes, I have looked into it. And the scientific consensus clearly is that plants are not sentient. Heck, the very article you linked to says that any such claims are nothing more than "pseudoscience". Can we be 100% sure that there isn't some kind of consciousness on the level of cells? No. But we have no reason to assume there is as there is no evidence for it. We cannot change our behavior on the basis of what we do not know.

Besides, you are the one asserting plants can feel pain. That is your assertion, not mine. My primary assertion in this thread is that animals can feel pain. These are independent problems. We can conclude one way or another that plants have feelings or not, but that doesn't in the least affect the question whether animals have feelings. Kick a dog and you can easily observe that it expresses emotions. Whether or not plants have similar feelings is not really relevant, so I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

But let me ask you this. How do you think plants experience emotion without a central nervous system and a brain to interpret these signals? Clearly you think there is some alternative way in which this happens, a way completely different from how it works in animals and humans. What makes you think there is such a system?

It also appears to me you are trying to make a point which is, from what I understand, contrary to what Islam teaches. From what has been posted in this thread, it is clear that animal cruelty is not allowed in Islam. There isn't a similar rule that disallows 'vegetable cruelty'. Why do you think that is?

What do you think of carnivores who kill other animals for food?

I do not have 'respect' for nature as such. I think nature and animals are by definition uncivilized and barbaric. There are no morals in nature. It is (ethically speaking) quite a vile place. As such I do not hold carnivores in very high regard, as they are merciless killers. Nevertheless, nature is a delicate balance and carnivores clearly serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

But we always need to keep in mind that unlike us humans, who are capable of reason, animals have no such abilities. They are therefore not truly capable of discerning right from wrong. I think it makes little sense to judge them, since they simply are what they are. I set higher standards for myself and fellow human beings.

 

[Predator]

Right. So lets assume you are right and vegetables have emotions and can feel pain, which I don't believe.

They do have senses. Havent you seen the Touch Me Not Plant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvzUgdRYcvY&feature=related

Their Body receptors respond to touch. They respond whenever their shape is altered or distorted and trigger extremely sensitive fast firing neutrons.

When the plant is touched, electrical signals are flashed by the cells and these responses of the plant prove that plants also feel pain.


And some plants themselves are carnivorous

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymnLpQNyI6g&feature=related

If you are convinced that plants have feelings just like animals do, why don't you act on that information and try to limit the suffering you are causing? Don't we have a moral obligation to organize our life in such a way that we don't cause suffering?

You mean i should eat mud and water and die .Thats laughable .

We do not want to forbid ourselves what God made lawful for us and our moral obligation is not to exceed the law

Quran 5:87
O you who believe: Make not unlawful the good things which God has made lawful for you but commit no excess for God love not those given to excess.

It is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet as a vegetarian. The link you posted tells as much! Of course there are risks if you are not aware of what you eat, but that is true with meat as well!

It is perfectly possible to live a healthy life with a balanced diet which consist of both meat and vegetables.

 

[KAding]

They do have senses. Havent you seen the Touch Me Not Plant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvzUgdRYcvY&feature=related

Their Body receptors respond to touch. They respond whenever their shape is altered or distorted and trigger extremely sensitive fast firing neutrons.

When the plant is touched, electrical signals are flashed by the cells and these responses of the plant prove that plants also feel pain.

A computer also responds to input. That does not mean it "feels pain".

Of course some plants respond to touch. But to feel pain you need to be sentient, you need to have higher brain functions to interpret these signals.

But anyway, as far as 'suffering' is concerned I then take it that to you say, bludgeoning a cat, picking a flower, and stepping on an ant are all essentially morally equivalent?

And some plants themselves are carnivorous

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymnLpQNyI6g&feature=related

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion.

You mean i should eat mud and water and die .Thats laughable .

Of course not. But it would give you an obligation to cause as little 'plant' suffering as possible. Producing 16 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of meat is hardly a morally acceptable approach then is it? Especially if it is only because you like the taste of meat.

It is perfectly possible to live a healthy life with a balanced diet which consist of both meat and vegetables.

Of course. No one ever disputed that. You on the other hand were disputing that it was impossible to have a healthy vegetarian diet.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Yes, I have looked into it. And the scientific consensus clearly is that plants are not sentient. Heck, the very article you linked to says that any such claims are nothing more than "pseudoscience". Can we be 100% sure that there isn't some kind of consciousness on the level of cells? No. But we have no reason to assume there is as there is no evidence for it. We cannot change our behavior on the basis of what we do not know.

Besides, you are the one asserting plants can feel pain. That is your assertion, not mine. My primary assertion in this thread is that animals can feel pain. These are independent problems. We can conclude one way or another that plants have feelings or not, but that doesn't in the least affect the question whether animals have feelings. Kick a dog and you can easily observe that it expresses emotions. Whether or not plants have similar feelings is not really relevant, so I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

But let me ask you this. How do you think plants experience emotion without a central nervous system and a brain to interpret these signals? Clearly you think there is some alternative way in which this happens, a way completely different from how it works in animals and humans. What makes you think there is such a system?

It also appears to me you are trying to make a point which is, from what I understand, contrary to what Islam teaches. From what has been posted in this thread, it is clear that animal cruelty is not allowed in Islam. There isn't a similar rule that disallows 'vegetable cruelty'. Why do you think that is?



I do not have 'respect' for nature as such. I think nature and animals are by definition uncivilized and barbaric. There are no morals in nature. It is (ethically speaking) quite a vile place. As such I do not hold carnivores in very high regard, as they are merciless killers. Nevertheless, nature is a delicate balance and carnivores clearly serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

But we always need to keep in mind that unlike us humans, who are capable of reason, animals have no such abilities. They are therefore not truly capable of discerning right from wrong. I think it makes little sense to judge them, since they simply are what they are. I set higher standards for myself and fellow human beings.

Carnivores have canine teeth in order for them to be able to rip meat and swallow it. Their digestive system also compliments their diet. Therefore they are built to eat meat so your arguments go against nature and Science.

Herbivores have molar like teeth therefore they are built to eat plants and there digestive systems also compliment their diet. Humans on the other hand have both canine and molar teeth meaning we are omnivores therefore we are designed to eat both meat and plants and our digestive systems compliment our diet.

If meat was not suppose to be in our diet then why do we have canine teeth and why do our digestive systems perfectly compliment the fact that as humans we can eat meat? Science has also proven the fact that meat and fish is very beneficial for us as part of a balanced diet more so than just eating vegetarian food.

Throughout this discussion it is evident that you are merely using your own emotions to give your own opinions on certain matters but you have not got science or nature on your side when it comes youy arguments.

Therefore according to nature and science, humans are built and designed to eat both meat and plants and this fact cannot be refuted by your emotionally fueled flawed arguments which are only your own assumptions and opinions and certainly far from being facts.

Everything in nature is balanced and if there were no meat eaters or no animals in the top of the chain then there would be very serious problems in the balance of nature. The balance is perfect and your argument against this balance is quite absurd and against the very balance of nature as well as being very unscientific.

 

[Lynx]

Any atheist who says rationality is the basis for whether or not we should eat or not eat an organism is not thinking this through unless they are willing to concede that it is okay to eat a human that is mentally retarded to the point where their cognitive functions are no better than an animal or a vegetable. Rationality has *something* to do with it but not everything. No non-sentient life form can feel any significant threshold of pain or suffering so it doesn't matter if they are killed for food or not and that appears to be our general rule of thumb in eating or not eating things (besides taste ) but not the only rule.

We don't eat humans because a) our society has instilled the desire not to eat humans whereas some societies are cannibalistic b) our social contract teaches us to respect the dead so out of the duty towards our dead we do not eat them. There isn't anything wrong with eating humans in itself (unless you kill them but that's a different issue) but we have created a moral system based on our desire NOT to have our relatives eaten and that is reflected on our social contract. So yeh, humans > animals.

emotion + social contract + deductive reasoning = Ethics

 

[جوري]

is it 'respectful for the dead' to pose them and sometimes in an obscene manner at the 'Body world'?

ah the selective 'empathy' of atheists!