Atheists' Marginalization of the Most Important Issue..

[aamirsaab]

Looking back at the OP, does anybody here agree with these assumptions about atheism?

I don't. Maybe that's because I have friends of all kinds, including atheists.

I think it's wrong to make assumptions and generalisations about anyone - regardless of their faith. Being ignorant about atheism is just as bad as being ignorant about theism.

p.s: Pygo, if you ever happen to come to the UK, please let me know and we can do lunch.

 

[Independent]

I agree with you, and I want the non-Muslim to say all what s/he thinks, so that the truth is cleared for whoever wants it. I say that and I'm a muslim to God.

Exactly. One of the benefits of a site like this is that it allows people who might not otherwise meet to share their understanding of the world - even if it completely opposite. I respect your point of view and I'm interested in it. Having said that, i substantially disagree with you!

My main problem with what you say is that it in no way resembles what I see around me. I feel as if you are basing your image of all atheists on the model of Richard Dawkins, who is in fact a very particular and unusual atheist.

In the UK, I know so many people who have slipped gradually from ‘low religion’ to ‘no religion’ very slowly over the course of their lives. Typically they were brought up Christian and (like Muslims in a Muslim country, or Buddhists in a Buddhist country) simply assumed that was the way to go.

Until imperceptibly, without noticing, without even thinking about it much, they ceased to believe. There never was a moment of decision. Even now they might be uncomfortable with being called outright an ‘atheist’. They certainly don’t want to talk about it.

In the vast majority of cases, their moral behaviour hasn’t changed one bit. They have the same principles, the same capacity for altruism or charity that they always had. They also have all the same faults. Even though you may say that without a God underpinning their morality, it should fall apart, that’s not what happens.

They are in fact neither better, nor worse, than they were before.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I think that a lot of our moral values come from within, from empathy, etc, and then we seek to explain it after the fact, and religion is one very powerful way to do that. I always find it interesting when the two conflict though, for example if Allah told you to kill your wife and children, would you do it? I think you have to be pretty far down the path of religious indoctrination to lose your independent sense of morality and say yes to that. Usually the answer will be something to avoid the conflict, like "Allah would never demand that" (which hopefully is what the person would believe true).

 

[glo]

^
If you look at the story of Abraham being told to kill his own son (Isaac in the Bible and Ishmael in the Qu'ran), then your comments are not so far fetched.
Would Abraham have sacrificed his son, if God had not intervened? Generally speaking, Abraham is revered for being so faithful and obedient to God, and considered an example to believers.

I agree that most of us would consider anybody who killed another person because "God told him so" to be criminally insane.

 

[Independent]

If you look at the story of Abraham being told to kill his own son (Isaac in the Bible and Ishmael in the Qu'ran), then your comments are not so far fetched.

On this subject Glo, there's a fascinating read in a book called 'Mimesis' by Erich Auerbach. You just need to read the chapter comparing the Jewish God with the Greek gods of the Odyssey. The Greek world view is entirely on the surface. No subtext, no hidden motives. Whereas the Jewish God is enigmatic in the extreme, especially in moments like this.

It's one of those moments when a whole people start to look at the world in a different way - akin to the Renaissance, or the 'discovery' of perspective in art.

 

[aamirsaab]

I think that a lot of our moral values come from within, from empathy, etc, and then we seek to explain it after the fact, and religion is one very powerful way to do that. I always find it interesting when the two conflict though, for example if Allah told you to kill your wife and children, would you do it? I think you have to be pretty far down the path of religious indoctrination to lose your independent sense of morality and say yes to that. Usually the answer will be something to avoid the conflict, like "Allah would never demand that" (which hopefully is what the person would believe true).

In fairness, Islam doesn't really place any moral dilemas amongst it's followers (save perhaps euthanasia), so whilst I see your argument I don't think it's fair to use. Blind following, indoctrination and dogmatism is "doing it wrong" as far as religion, specifically Islam, is concerned.

 

[YusufNoor]

I think that a lot of our moral values come from within, from empathy, etc, and then we seek to explain it after the fact, and religion is one very powerful way to do that. I always find it interesting when the two conflict though, for example if Allah told you to kill your wife and children, would you do it? I think you have to be pretty far down the path of religious indoctrination to lose your independent sense of morality and say yes to that. Usually the answer will be something to avoid the conflict, like "Allah would never demand that" (which hopefully is what the person would believe true).

if you think, you don't know. if one has no inherent positive values, and is an atheist, then is it OK for said atheist to be a murderer? if they are no concrete reasons that murder is unacceptable, does that make it acceptable?

and if you say murder is unacceptable, where are your proofs?

wouldn't it make more sense to say that you are agnostic and that you haven't figured it out yet? especially since your observations make you think that religious folks are nutjobs? therefore the source of their "nutjobism" must be false?

if someone says, "i don't know" then that seems a valid statement. but if someone says, "no way absolutely not!" to something that they can't actually prove, are they not as unjustified, in your opinion was someone who says, "this is absolutely true!" but then can't prove it?

and if you have NO PROOF that your belief is correct and someone else has some evidence that they believe offers some proof, which of the two, seems more logical?

on a much lighter note, according to Einsteins "theory of relativity", does the universe even exist? check the vid:

peace

 

[Logikon]

If one has no inherent positive values, and is an atheist, then is it OK for said atheist to be a murderer?

If they are no concrete reasons that murder is unacceptable, does that make it acceptable?

No murder is not acceptable because for a healthy society to thrive murder has to be against the law.

As I said it is explained in the book I quoted above.

 

[CosmicPathos]

because for a healthy society to thrive murder has to be against the law.

A society can also be healthy if stronger people murder weaker people. Your definition of healthy is quite wrong.

 

[YusufNoor]

uh oh, i was talking to pygo, but w/o reading your book some cultures use infanticide and [whatever the one you kill old people is called] in order to have a healthy society. so, your saying that is OK?

and book aside, isn't war murder? abortion? not feeding a starving person? eating too much, thus depriving someone else of food? just plain wasting food? how do you decide? and not some guys book, he ain't here. if we are going to choose books, let's use the Qur'an. i'm not interested in other ones to use in deciding what is right. you'll have to make your proof by your lonesomeness.

if murder has to be against the law, how do you validate GW Bush? Dick Cheney? Bibi Netanyayhoo? Obama's killer drones?

 

[Pygoscelis]

if one has no inherent positive values, and is an atheist

Do you equate the two?

wouldn't it make more sense to say that you are agnostic and that you haven't figured it out yet?

I would have to ask the same of you and your brothers and sisters of faith. It is the religious far more than the non-religious that claim to know with certainty. I have actually never met an atheist who is absolutely certain in their mind that there is and can be no Gods. Though I am not one of them, I actually know some atheists who lost their belief and wish they could have it back.

especially since your observations make you think that religious folks are nutjobs? therefore the source of their "nutjobism" must be false?

Not all religious folks are nutjobs.

if someone says, "i don't know" then that seems a valid statement. but if someone says, "no way absolutely not!" to something that they can't actually prove, are they not as unjustified, in your opinion was someone who says, "this is absolutely true!" but then can't prove it?

Yes. I agree with that. I can not absolutely disprove a lot of things though, including space alien visitors, Shiva and Vishnu, the Loch Ness monster, and faeries. I do not cite these examples to mock your faith. I cite them because there are or were believers in each of these, often holding those beliefs as central to their identities, as you likely do with Allah. I also cite them because you nor I can disprove them and we likely view their likelihood of being true similarly, so it can give you a sense of how I and many other atheists view your own belief. When you make incredible claims that are not falsifiable, you shouldn't really expect others to believe them if they were not raised or indoctrinated into your culture.

and if you have NO PROOF that your belief is correct and someone else has some evidence that they believe offers some proof, which of the two, seems more logical?

First, atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of a belief. It is saying that we don't believe in the Gods people tell us are out there.

Second, to have any proof or evidence to disprove the existence of Gods, first there would have to be concrete and falsifiable claims of said Gods. It is exceedingly rare that any such falsifiable claims are laid out by theists, and when they are, and when they are then shown to be false, the goal posts always move.

uh oh, i was talking to pygo, but w/o reading your book some cultures use infanticide and [whatever the one you kill old people is called] in order to have a healthy society. so, your saying that is OK?

I suppose that depends on how you define a healthy society. Such cultures usually have religions by the way, so this really isn't a theism vs atheism thing.

and book aside, isn't war murder? abortion? not feeding a starving person? eating too much, thus depriving someone else of food? just plain wasting food? how do you decide? and not some guys book, he ain't here. if we are going to choose books, let's use the Qur'an. i'm not interested in other ones to use in deciding what is right. you'll have to make your proof by your lonesomeness.

Empathy forms the basis. On top of that, social culture and cooperation influences what we see as right and wrong. Authoritarianism and tribalism do as well. This is true both inside and outside of religious context. I find the study of what forms our senses of moral values fascinating. And yes, religion plays a big role in this for many.

As I said above, I believe that religion acts as both an authoritarian force for the priest class to influence the masses, and also as an after the fact justification for beliefs we already hold and actions we already wish to take or have taken. It is a powerful social force that can encourage both charity and atrocity. It encourages social cohesion and the tribalism that comes with it (which has both its positive and negative aspects).

if murder has to be against the law, how do you validate GW Bush? Dick Cheney? Bibi Netanyayhoo? Obama's killer drones?

Personally, I oppose all of them.

 

[Pygoscelis]

A society can also be healthy if stronger people murder weaker people. Your definition of healthy is quite wrong.

You define a society in which the strong murder the weak as healthy? Such a society sounds pretty sick to me.

 

[YusufNoor]

Do you equate the two?

absolutely not.

I would have to ask the same of you and your brothers and sisters of faith. It is the religious far more than the non-religious that claim to know with certainty. I have actually never met an atheist who is absolutely certain in their mind that there is and can be no Gods. Though I am not one of them, I actually know some atheists who lost their belief and wish they could have it back.

not sure, i believe that many folks claiming to be religious are agnostic. they do things because "someone told them too", not because they understand something.

Not all religious folks are nutjobs.

no, but when evaluating religions we tend to look at the "nutjobs" as the main reason that religion is poor.

Yes. I agree with that. I can not absolutely disprove a lot of things though, including space alien visitors, Shiva and Vishnu, the Loch Ness monster, and faeries. I do not cite these examples to mock your faith. I cite them because there are or were believers in each of these, often holding those beliefs as central to their identities, as you likely do with Allah. I also cite them because you nor I can disprove them and we likely view their likelihood of being true similarly, so it can give you a sense of how I and many other atheists view your own belief. When you make incredible claims that are not falsifiable, you shouldn't really expect others to believe them if they were not raised or indoctrinated into your culture.

not sure if this will make sense, but "kuffar" in it's strongest sense means one who has rejected Islam. i don't see most non Muslims as that. i see them mostly as folks who reject what Muslims portray as Islam. i think mis-portraying Islam is much worse than rejecting it. when i first became Muslim, i had a bunch of taxi drivers what the best way for them to make dawah was. based on all of the many complaints i heard about them, i said, "quit being a**holes." they were not very receptive. i went on to explain that being totally rude to people, driving like maniacs and condemning people for not being Muslim isn't the correct form of dawah. be polite, kind and helpful, make your clients feel safe. if you can't do that, please don't let the know you are a Muslim. and if you CAN do that, don't worry about making dawah, you already have.

First, atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of a belief. It is saying that we don't believe in the Gods people tell us are out there.

that is my point. i only studied Islam so i could show a lady friend what was wrong with it. turns out, nothing was. Muslims, well that is a different story.

Second, to have any proof or evidence to disprove the existence of Gods, first there would have to be concrete and falsifiable claims of said Gods. It is exceedingly rare that any such falsifiable claims are laid out by theists, and when they are, and when they are then shown to be false, the goal posts always move.

you claim God doesn't exist, but you can't prove it. i don't go on atheists web sites and tell them they are wrong. i don't do it on Christian or Jewish web sites either. it is totally an alien concept for me to not believe in God. it is EASY to not believe in religion, but that is 2 different things. if you say "i don't know", that seems an honest and fair answer. if you want to claim, "God does not exist" here on an Islamic site, then i would say that it IS up to you to prove it. you can't, so you should only say that you disagree.

I suppose that depends on how you define a healthy society. Such cultures usually have religions by the way, so this really isn't a theism vs atheism thing.

no, but they still are trying to determine what is best.

Empathy forms the basis. On top of that, social culture and cooperation influences what we see as right and wrong. Authoritarianism and tribalism do as well. This is true both inside and outside of religious context. I find the study of what forms our senses of moral values fascinating. And yes, religion plays a big role in this for many.

are there any rules saying that an atheist must be empathetic?

As I said above, I believe that religion acts as both an authoritarian force for the priest class to influence the masses, and also as an after the fact justification for beliefs we already hold and actions we already wish to take or have taken. It is a powerful social force that can encourage both charity and atrocity. It encourages social cohesion and the tribalism that comes with it (which has both its positive and negative aspects).

we can all deny religion or aspects of (a)religion. you are denying that God exists. i merely ask for proof of your claim.

Personally, I oppose all of them.

i can agree that some aspects of some religion might seem or actually be bad for society. how does denying the Creator benefit society?

peace

 

[Pygoscelis]

you claim God doesn't exist

No I don't. I just don't believe Gods do exist. There is a difference.

, but you can't prove it.

Correct. I have no evidence to disprove the unfalsifiable claim of Gods existing. I have no way to be 100% certain that they don't, in the same way that I have no way to be 100% certain that the alien space visitors, faeries, etc don't exist.

i don't go on atheists web sites and tell them they are wrong.

I don't come to this board to tell Muslims they are wrong or to ridicule them as some here like to accuse me of. I originally came here following 9/11 to dispel myths I had heard about Muslims and Islam from conservative Christians. I stuck around because I made some friends here. I have never had any interest in intruding on the fellowship subforums of this board, and I stick to this one and world affairs one pretty much exclusively, where I feel an atheist's perspective may be of some value.

I ask you to read the first few posts on this thread. The OP is a series of false statements about atheists and atheism. I and some other atheists addressed these misconceptions and the thread flowed from there.

it is totally an alien concept for me to not believe in God.

Then all the more reason to go visit those atheist boards. I would also encourage you to participate on Christian, Jewish, etc boards. It makes for much more interesting conversation when you have people from different viewpoints, if you can find a board which is civil and accepting of that. Yes it can be rough sometimes, but so long as you converse and do not preach you should be welcomed and it is on them if they are abusive. Avoid as best you can taking that bait and try not to snap back at the trolls and moderators should step in if that happens too much. You've seen this in regard to non-muslims posting here. Sometimes you do have to have a thick skin, but I really think it is worth it for the cross-cultural conversation. When everybody has the same view things get very dull and very group think very fast.

are there any rules saying that an atheist must be empathetic?

It isn't about rules. It isn't authoritarian. It is nothing more than a lack of belief in Gods. Anything beyond that isn't mere atheism.

So no, there is nothing particular about atheism that would make one more empathetic, besides basic biology. If anything, it is more the lack of some religions' authoritarian overriding of empathy that may give atheists an edge over some theists in that regard. I get alarmed when I see some religious people burying their own moral compass under an allegiance to what some authority figure (speaking for God) tells them is right or wrong. That takes us back to the question of "would you kill your family if God commanded it" etc. I once saw an interview with a Catholic man who was asked his opinion on some social issue and he responded "What does the Pope say? I have to know what the Pope says because that is my opinion". That is scary eh? He had no independent consideration.

 

[Hulk]

hi pygo would u mind sharing your thoughts on this clip?

 

[GuestFellow]

What are we supposed to be talking about? I've lost the plot. Should I go back to sleep? : P

I think people develop their morals through experience and communication with other human beings if they do not follow a religion or raised in a culture that follows no religion.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I think people develop their morals through experience and communication with other human beings if they do not follow a religion or raised in a culture that follows no religion.

That plus basic biological empathy.

 

[Pygoscelis]

hi pygo would u mind sharing your thoughts on this clip?

I myself lean towards materialism, but you do NOT have to be materialist to be atheist. There are plenty of non-materialist, non-naturalist atheists. Atheists can even be spiritual. They just can't believe in Gods.

This video says that being a materialist makes you think you are a God. That I can assure you is not so.

 

[Hulk]

Thanks pygo, I honestly didn't notice that the guy in the vid says that materialists elevate themselves to the status of being a god until you mentioned it.

I rewatched the vid and near the end the guy says that naturalists elevate themselves to god because they are in charge of their own destiny. I guess you disagree with this? For me I say no because I believe I am at the mercy of God, so I'm interested as to why you would disagree to it as well. Is it because of the possibility of being a victim to circumstance?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Thanks pygo, I honestly didn't notice that the guy in the vid says that materialists elevate themselves to the status of being a god until you mentioned it.

I rewatched the vid and near the end the guy says that naturalists elevate themselves to god because they are in charge of their own destiny. I guess you disagree with this? For me I say no because I believe I am at the mercy of God, so I'm interested as to why you would disagree to it as well. Is it because of the possibility of being a victim to circumstance?

Yes. I can control my destiny to a certain extent, or at least I can have that illusion (depending on how we resolve the issue of determinism vs free will), but I do not have super powers or anything like that, and I am subject to the world around me. I can't fly or control the actions of other people, etc, anymore than you can, and I am also influenced by social forces and my sense of empathy etc.