Atheists must watch this video from 3:42 time of this video

[Pygoscelis]

Pygo no offense but i think trying to handle these issues is a bit above your level at the moment....

Um ok, I'll just sit quietly over here in the corner while you elightened ones speak your great wisdom. :giggling:

first you need to get your head aroudn the concept of god and what god before trying to explain the quran to us.

What an odd thing to post under what I'd written. I wasn't "explaining the Quran" to anybody. I was merely stating agreement that these so-called prophecies will only convince those who already believe. That is evidenced in this very thread merely by who is posting what.

the verse with the lamp is clearly imagery, referring to oil as enlighting even though fire doesnt touch it... and the verse about waves is definately literal becaue its specifically talking about Allah's advanced creation.

Are you saying Allah didn't create the spiritual and that there are not layers of enlightenment that may be seen as waves upon waves? Another muslim in another time may disagree. Oh, and as I posted above, I bet if we amazingly found a giant lamp hidden in the sun, you'd say you knew it was there all along because the verse in the Quran told you so (literal).

It wont' convince anyone who's got a mind that can't deduce or contemplate... that's for sure.

You are implying that people who reject your religion can't deduce or contemplate? :rollseyes

 

[Pygoscelis]

ps: pygo im not sure where the greek aztec thing is.. maybe im missing it here? can u giv me the post number ill find it myself? (its written on the top corner of the post)

I'm not aware of any reference to Aztecs in this thread. That was an example in another. THe reference to the greeks was by KAdling a few pages back.

 

[Pygoscelis]

And about that last line, "achieve their objectives without violence", that's very easy for you to say with you sitting behind your computer screen and all.

If they have devine power backing them up, why is this so difficult?

If someone were to get away with slaughtering someone very close to you, like a family member, would you knock on their door and offer them chocolate and flowers?

When YOU'RE in a situation like that yourself, everything suddenly isn't so zen.

Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. On rare occasions use of force is required for self preservation, but violence for the sake of vengeance is counter productive. And violence coupled with religious fervor is the most destructive force ever witnessed by man.

I believe that only a few wars are started because of religion, but almost all wars are amplified and clouded by it.

Anyway, i think we've gone off topic. *slaps own hand*

 

[lolwatever]

again... pygo tearing bits of replies out of context to dodge what he wants and put on a show of ability to reply with scholarly wisdom to drips and draps of posts...... that method is becoming too outdated pygo, i advise you look at things fully or just keep out.

how about I'll offer you a chance to edit your post(s) abvoe and try replying with a little more concentration this time.

 

[Les_Nubian]

If they have devine power backing them up, why is this so difficult?



Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. On rare occasions use of force is required for self preservation, but violence for the sake of vengeance is counter productive. And violence coupled with religious fervor is the most destructive force ever witnessed by man.

I believe that only a few wars are started because of religion, but almost all wars are amplified and clouded by it.

Anyway, i think we've gone off topic. *slaps own hand*

Why is it so difficult? Because we're human beings. Hello? Am I the only one conscious today? I'll reiterate that. We are human beings. We are not Gods. Life is a STRUGGLE. Life is MEANT to be a struggle. Life is not perfect for everyone, nor will it ever be. Even the prophet Muhammad himself (saw) was a mere HUMAN. A noble, respectable prophet yes, but he was not God, as none of us are. No one is going to make all of the perfect decisions at all of the perfect times. Not even a prophet of God Himself.

How can someone who has never had any struggles or problems in life be an example for the rest of us? If the prophets were squaky clean, how could any of us look up to them? You can only look up to someone (as a clear example for all humanity) when they have had struggles and have conquered those struggles, as an example of how you should be, and how you should overcome certain things in your life.

Now I could go on to say that white people because of white supremacy have a great history of oppressing people for centuries and centuries (and are still doing it today), but it wouldn't be fair for me to say that all white people are inherently evil, now would it? Just as it seems like you are implying that religion must be the cause of all of the world's problems today. At least that's the underlying vibe I'm getting. Tell me if I'm wrong...

Religion is something that people desperately hold on to in times of war, and to serve their own political agendas. It's not religion itself. Religion itself is doing NOTHING. It's just sitting there, waiting for people to do with it what they wish. It's PEOPLE that are destructive. Religion itself has done nothing. People have done what people will do--exactly what they want to do.

 

[Pygoscelis]

again... pygo tearing bits of replies out of context to dodge what he wants

Nothing was taken out of context. Some stuff was ignored because it was meaningless.

how about I'll offer you a chance to edit your post(s) abvoe and try replying with a little more concentration this time.

:rollseyes
How about you speak with a little more civility. lol.

 

[lolwatever]

Nothing was taken out of context. Some stuff was ignored because it was meaningless.



:rollseyes
How about you speak with a little more civility. lol.

^ :lol: ur givin every debator in this forum some great ideas, we should all just ignore everyones post with the pretense that everything everyone else says is meaningless

n where was i being uncivil ... you sure do love avoiding points in exchange for trying to drag ur opponents into petty personal attacks :giggling:

perhaps you could try again... and show some relevence. Your behaviour when you first came seemed much more agreeable, where did all that go :rollseyes:

 

[Pygoscelis]

Why is it so difficult? Because we're human beings.

Yes, but the humans claim to be guided by a perfect God.

Either there is no such God guiding them, they lack a clear connection to the God (failure to communicate how to resolve the situation without bloodshed), or they refuse to follow the instructions of the God. Either way, a religious group that didn't have these problems would be more impressive. Thats all I think was being said in the post you were replying to.

Hello?

Greetings! And Salutations too!

Am I the only one conscious today?

Actually you are dreaming all of this.

How can someone who has never had any struggles or problems in life be an example for the rest of us?

Now that is an interesting point and I think it says something about religion in general.

You can only look up to someone (as a clear example for all humanity) when they have had struggles and have conquered those struggles, as an example of how you should be, and how you should overcome certain things in your life.

Ok. I get what you are saying.

Just as it seems like you are implying that religion must be the cause of all of the world's problems today. At least that's the underlying vibe I'm getting. Tell me if I'm wrong...

You're wrong. Religion is certainly the cause of many of the world's problems, but its also been a strong force for social cohesion and stability. It has brought comfort and kinship to millions. That is good. It only goes bad when people take it too hardcore and start telling others how to think and live or use it to justify bad things they've done.

As I posted above, religion isn't the cause of most of the world's wars, but it IS a great amplifier of conflict and it is divisionary (especially when monotheistic). It is a way for believers to justify and rationalize anything. That includes charity and that includes attrocity.

Religion is something that people desperately hold on to in times of war, and to serve their own political agendas.

Yes, I agree.

It's not religion itself. Religion itself is doing NOTHING. It's just sitting there, waiting for people to do with it what they wish.

Well religion only exists in the minds of believers, and it becomes whatever the blelievers decide it will be. If it has a holy book, then that will also guide what it inspires. Most modern religions still have some nasty parts that if read in a particular way (which I hope is the wrong way) can inspire some terrible things.

people will do--exactly what they want to do.

Yes, there is usually some underlying motive apart from the religious belief, but religion is often used as an excuse, sometimes used as an inspiration, and always used as a rationalization and justification for the actions taken.

Now that said, religion has also inspired a lot of good.

And that said, we are now officially completely off topic

 

[Les_Nubian]

Yes, but the humans claim to be guided by a perfect God.

Either there is no such God guiding them, they lack a clear connection to the God (failure to communicate how to resolve the situation without bloodshed), or they refuse to follow the instructions of the God. Either way, a religious group that didn't have these problems would be more impressive. Thats all I think was being said in the post you were replying to.



Greetings! And Salutations too!



Actually you are dreaming all of this.



Now that is an interesting point and I think it says something about religion in general.



Ok. I get what you are saying.



You're wrong. Religion is certainly the cause of many of the world's problems, but its also been a strong force for social cohesion and stability. It has brought comfort and kinship to millions. That is good. It only goes bad when people take it too hardcore and start telling others how to think and live or use it to justify bad things they've done.

As I posted above, religion isn't the cause of most of the world's wars, but it IS a great amplifier of conflict and it is divisionary (especially when monotheistic). It is a way for believers to justify and rationalize anything. That includes charity and that includes attrocity.



Yes, I agree.



Well religion only exists in the minds of believers, and it becomes whatever the blelievers decide it will be. If it has a holy book, then that will also guide what it inspires. Most modern religions still have some nasty parts that if read in a particular way (which I hope is the wrong way) can inspire some terrible things.



Yes, there is usually some underlying motive apart from the religious belief, but religion is often used as an excuse, sometimes used as an inspiration, and always used as a rationalization and justification for the actions taken.

Now that said, religion has also inspired a lot of good.

And that said, we are now officially completely off topic

I guess you still don't understand.

Being guided by God does not mean that you are perfect. God doesn't grant us perfection. Being "guided" by God does not mean being granted some magic wand of perfection. Obviously you have the wrong idea about what divine guidance is to begin with.

We have complete free will. Divine guidence is not some spirirt that just sweeps us away and takes over someone's body, forcing them to do all good things. It just doesn't work like that.

But, about some of the other things you have said, I agree. At least we agree on a lot of points. And yes maybe this is a little off-topic, but who cares. Everyone's off topic in this thread at this point. kay:

 

[maroon1]

I have read the Quran and what Zakir Naik is doing is he interprets the Quran for his purpose, the Quran like most religious scriptures doesn't give detailed, concrete answers on many issues but so enough room to bend it in any direction.


Just read this verse

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا

The word "da7aha" doesn't mean an egg-shaped, it means that means "Madda" or in English it means to spread like a carpet. In other words, the Quran mentions that the Earth is flat. However, many Muslims claim that "Da7aha" is a derivative form of duhiya which means egg-shaped. But the Earth shape is not similar to the Egg, anyway !! (Thats if we accept that the meaning of the word "Da7aha" is an egg shape)

 

[syilla]

Posted by akhee Qatada

THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH



In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597. Consider the following Qur’aanic verse regarding the alternation of day and night: “Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night?” [Al-Qur’aan 31:29]

Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.



The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth: “He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions):

He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night.” [Al-Qur’aan 39:5]



The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’ or ‘to coil’– the way a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical. The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattened at the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth’s shape:



The Qur’aan and Modern Science: Compatible or Incompatible?
11 Distributed by AHYA Multi-Media http://www.ahya.org


“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” 2 [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]




The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.



Ostrich Egg:

If you need more info. please don't hesitate to ask. You can download the whole book from here:

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf



You need adobe reader to view it, which you can download from here insha'Allah (God willing):

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html



Or you can watch the authors vids:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=zakir+naik

Posted by akhee skillganon

Your quite right the Word daha is use for the flatten depression where the ostrich lay's it's egg.

I will post the article:

Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

The word in question is the verb (dahâ) comes from the triliteral root d-h-w and it appears in the Qur’ân in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât: 30]

This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”. Allah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: “He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed.” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât : 31-32]

Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.

With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:

Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg udhiyy. This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.

From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depresion where the ostrich deposits its egg.

Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage. However, without doubt we can say that such an error does not detract from the person’s reputation or scholarship as a whole, and it does not warrant a harsh repremand.

In any case, verse 30 of Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât – that mentions the verb dahâ in reference to the Earth – is not discussing the shape of the Earth at all. It cannot be used as proof that the Earth is flat or round or egg-shaped. The verse is silent on the matter. And Allah knows best.

The exact shape of the Earth is best known from empirical observations, and not from seeking to deduce its exact shape from the Qur’ân.

The Earth is practically a perfect sphere, though due to its rotation, it bulges ever so slightly at the equator. Because of this, it is referred to as an oblate speroid. We must keep in mind that this equatorial bulge is extremely slight. The Earth’s equatorial diameter is only 43 kilometers greater than its polar diameter.

To get an idea of how insignificant this difference is, we can compare the spericity to the Earth to that of a billiard ball. A billiard ball must be very spherical. The tolerance allowed for a billiard ball is only 0.22%. (Tolerance, in engineering, refers to the permissible limit of variation in a dimension of a manufactured object.) The Earth, by comparison, has a tolerance of about one part in 584, or 0.17%. This means the Earth is more perfectly spherical than what is allowed for a billiard ball.

And Allah knows best.

From thread http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/33712-39-5-a.html#post599621

It was also answered in this thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4135-earth-flat-sun-hides-rises.html#post65059