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IbnAbdulHakim

IbnAbdulHakim

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Greetings

Hope you are well



I would like to ask you to tell me how you have understood the universe to begin?

Whatever is the very first in existence, how did it happen... what was the beginning in your understanding.


Thank you kindly for your time.
 
أَوَلَم يَرَ الَّذينَ كَفَروا أَنَّ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضَ كانَتا رَتقًا فَفَتَقنٰهُما ۖ وَجَعَلنا مِنَ الماءِ كُلَّ شَيءٍ حَىٍّ ۖ أَفَلا يُؤمِنونَ

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Quran 21:30


The disbelievers have now accepted that everything was once under water - even the mountains, they try to explain the fact that rocks on mountains which are so obviously placed - often very neatly - on top of one another, by saying that the currents in the water slid them on top of each other.

They have also accepted that the heavens and the earth were one unit of creation (due to the fact that everything is moving apart away from each other, and have come up with the "big bang" theory to explain that.

I dunno if there was a "big bang" but I do know this coz God told us it:

وَهُوَ الَّذى خَلَقَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضَ بِالحَقِّ ۖ وَيَومَ يَقولُ كُن فَيَكونُ ۚ قَولُهُ الحَقُّ ۚ وَلَهُ المُلكُ يَومَ يُنفَخُ فِى الصّورِ ۚ عٰلِمُ الغَيبِ وَالشَّهٰدَةِ ۚ وَهُوَ الحَكيمُ الخَبيرُ

It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, \"Be,\" behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things).

Quran 6:73
 
can we keep this thread restricted to atheists only please :)

I make my threads to simply understand a view, not to convince, discuss, debate or the like.
 
Lol sorry I didn't even notice that it was meant for atheists bro,
Well at least I got my tuppence in :p
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
Would really like to know what you guys think.
Click to expand...
As no one else has replied to this I’ll have a go - although I’m not sure the word ‘atheist’ entirely describes me (and in any case atheists may believe many different things, no one regulates them.) I’ll admit I am nervous to answer because this kind of thread usually gets plenty of abuse, but you have asked the question very politely.

For the moment I would follow general scientific opinion that the universe was probably created in the Big Bang event. However, I don’t regard this as proven – there are other theories such as the Cosmological Slingshot. The challenge for a physicist to analyse events from about 13.5 billion years ago is not to be underestimated. Although I sometimes read about their latest work, it involves cutting edge physics and I am in no way qualified to judge their efforts - except to say that brilliant work has been done and it’s an amazingly exciting area. On the whole, I find science exhilarating and optimistic.

I have read that many Muslims feel the Big Bang theory fits with the description of Creation in the Qu’ran. Personally I don’t agree with this (I find the text too metaphorical) and in any case, it may turn out that the Big Bang is not the correct theory. Will all those Muslims then regard the Qu’ran as proven ‘wrong’? I don’t think so. For me the Qu’ran is not a science book and has nothing significant to say about science one way or the other.

Before I get deluged with quotes, I am aware of the various claims that are made about the human embryo, mountain formation, creation of man etc but I find these accounts of the text to be too vague and capable of many alternative interpretations. In my view, the absence of science doesn’t in any way diminish the exceptional quality of the Qu’ran as a religious/moral text.

As for what happened before the Big Bang…there are some theories around. There’s also a view that we live in one of many parallel universes, which makes the question of a beginning even more complicated.

Science has not disproved the possibility of a divine creator. Most probably, science will never be able do this, because the actions of a divine creator may not necessarily be subject to any measurable scientific law. If the theory of the universe tended towards a notion of eternal existence without a beginning, or endless repetition of a cycle, then I suppose you could say that makes a Creator less likely. But again, if it were to be proven that the universe was eternal, would you then abandon your faith as a Muslim? If not, then this view is not really core to your belief.
 
Those who are not muslims but believe in God as the Creator of the universe pose two possibilities for God:
1. That God created the universe and all within it and continuously manages it.
2. That God created the universe, placed in it scientific laws, and then left it.

What do athiests/agnostics/others think of these two views? And how do they explain the occurences in the universe? For example, the earth turns on its axis, completing a rotation once every 24 hours and revolves around the sun, completing a revolution in 1 year. What makes this process continue if God left the universe to its own devices? What about those who don;t believe in God. How do they explain this continuous unaltering and orderly process? what makes this process continuous? Why doesn't it stop or change?


What about the weather? how do atheists and those who believe that God has no hand in the functioning of the universe explain changing weather and climates, storms, etc? why should the weather change? is it really only based on the seasons or does God make them change?

A descriptive and complete reply would be appreciated so one can understand the explanation of athiests about these.
 
oops i didn't know this thread was only for athiests. well i hope we can get some insight with their answers.
 
You've asked such far ranging questions covering a wide range of sciences. So please forgive me if I don't answer everything you need:

WRITER said:
Those who are not muslims but believe in God as the Creator of the universe pose two possibilities for God:
1. That God created the universe and all within it and continuously manages it.
2. That God created the universe, placed in it scientific laws, and then left it.
Click to expand...
An atheist will of course reject both views. But number 2 is relatively much more acceptable (because it can’t necessarily be proved or disproved, as I suggested above).

Number 1 is clearly not acceptable because an atheist believes that we already have sufficient mechanisms to describe what happens in the universe, or (where there are still gaps in our knowledge) that science will one day progress and fill those gaps (just as it has progressively done in the past).

So, for instance, Kepler’s parabolic orbits ‘improved’ Copernicus’s perfect circles as a more accurate description of planetary orbits, which fitted the data more satisfactorily.


WRITER said:
How do they explain this continuous unaltering and orderly process? what makes this process continuous? Why doesn't it stop or change?
Click to expand...
Actually it does change if you hang around long enough. The earth’s orbit has not always been exactly as it is and the Sun will one day literally run of fuel and perish, taking the earth with it.

The forces that govern planetary motion have been described within Newtonian physics plus some updates – I didn’t think this was necessarily disputed by Islam?


WRITER said:
how do atheists and those who believe that God has no hand in the functioning of the universe explain changing weather and climates, storms, etc? why should the weather change?
Click to expand...

The weather is one of the most fantastically complex systems to analyse, which is why forecasters get it wrong so often. We need billions of data collection points scattered through the atmosphere, not just the handful of weather stations which we have.

There are many interlocking mechanisms which affect it – sea temperature, ocean currents, sunspots, volcanic eruptions etc. Their influence is proven, but measuring and predicting the interaction is another matter.

In short, we understand most of the mechanisms, but we don’t have enough live data or a big enough computer to process it.

I would point out that there is weather on Mars and other planets, as is being measured by the Mars Rover currently. This goes on all the time without a human audience, and on countless billions of other planets throughout the universe. Is God/Allah taking the trouble to orchestrate all of these?
 
Independant, thank you very much for your answers.

Very insightful.

I wont barrage you with my views as I still want to understand yours.

If the theory of the universe tended towards a notion of eternal existence without a beginning, or endless repetition of a cycle, then I suppose you could say that makes a Creator less likely.
Click to expand...

I can see where your coming from.
What I cant quite grasp though (With my extremely limited knowledge) is how its possible for the universe to not have a beginning, hence I created this thread.
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
Greetings

Hope you are well

I would like to ask you Athiests to tell me how you have understood the universe to begin?
Click to expand...


Greetings, hope you are well.

The answer is that we don't know. From this you can draw a further conclusion:


Weeeee doooooooon't knooooow!

In the meantime there is a game on the weekend and that has my undivided attention.


 
Independent said:
You've asked such far ranging questions covering a wide range of sciences. So please forgive me if I don't answer everything you need:


An atheist will of course reject both views. But number 2 is relatively much more acceptable (because it can’t necessarily be proved or disproved, as I suggested above).

Number 1 is clearly not acceptable because an atheist believes that we already have sufficient mechanisms to describe what happens in the universe, or (where there are still gaps in our knowledge) that science will one day progress and fill those gaps (just as it has progressively done in the past).

So, for instance, Kepler’s parabolic orbits ‘improved’ Copernicus’s perfect circles as a more accurate description of planetary orbits, which fitted the data more satisfactorily.



Actually it does change if you hang around long enough. The earth’s orbit has not always been exactly as it is and the Sun will one day literally run of fuel and perish, taking the earth with it.

The forces that govern planetary motion have been described within Newtonian physics plus some updates – I didn’t think this was necessarily disputed by Islam?




The weather is one of the most fantastically complex systems to analyse, which is why forecasters get it wrong so often. We need billions of data collection points scattered through the atmosphere, not just the handful of weather stations which we have.

There are many interlocking mechanisms which affect it – sea temperature, ocean currents, sunspots, volcanic eruptions etc. Their influence is proven, but measuring and predicting the interaction is another matter.

In short, we understand most of the mechanisms, but we don’t have enough live data or a big enough computer to process it.

I would point out that there is weather on Mars and other planets, as is being measured by the Mars Rover currently. This goes on all the time without a human audience, and on countless billions of other planets throughout the universe. Is God/Allah taking the trouble to orchestrate all of these?
Click to expand...

I couldn't undertand a thing, which is why i asked for a descriptive explanation showing that it's posible for the universe to function without a continuous intervention from God. God says in the Quran, Surah Fatir (Chapter 35), verse 41 :

Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth, lest they cease. And if they should cease, no one could hold them [in place] after Him. Indeed, He is Forbearing and Forgiving.

Other translations of the same verse:

Muhsin Khan translation
Verily! Allah grasps the heavens and the earth lest they move away from their places, and if they were to move away from their places, there is not one that could grasp them after Him. Truly, He is Ever Most Forbearing, OftForgiving.

Pickthall translation
Lo! Allah graspeth the heavens and the earth that they deviate not, and if they were to deviate there is not one that could grasp them after Him. Lo! He is ever Clement, Forgiving.
 
Logikon said:
Greetings, hope you are well.

The answer is that we don't know. From this you can draw a further conclusion:


Weeeee doooooooon't knooooow!

In the meantime there is a game on the weekend and that has my undivided attention.
Click to expand...

Another thing that evidence is needed for is the theory that evolution happens by itself (if evolution happens at all) and not because of intervention from God. what causes evolution? why does it happen? what makes organisms select traits/features that are better? is it really possible for a nonliving thing such as a cell to choose the right traits for successful adaptation to environment?

those are questions athiests need to think about.
 
WRITER said:
Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth, lest they cease. And if they should cease, no one could hold them [in place] after Him.
Click to expand...
Unsurprisingly, I believe that the laws of gravity hold the stars and planets in their orbits, not Allah. The evidence for this is surely beyond reasonable doubt - we wouldn't have the Mars Rover crawling around the surface of Mars right now unless all the sums about gravity were correct. As far as I'm aware this is also accepted by many Muslims - I wouldn't know what kind of percentages one way or the other.

For me, the lines you quote are metaphorical, not literal. They could have meaning in the general sense that Allah has created the universe in the first place including gravity as part of its structure - but once created, these laws operate by themselves. Are you familiar with the work of Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton etc? This is too much for me to summarise.

As far as I understand, at least some Muslims (but not all) accept most of what science has discovered - including gravity, particle physics, geology, meteorology and many other disciplines - with the notable exception of evolution. Very few if any Muslims seem to accept that men evolved from earlier species, ultimately leading back to common ancestry with the ape. They also don't accept evolution for any other animal or lifeform.

The great majority of atheists (perhaps all of them) would believe in the existence of evolution. However, they might not agree on the precise processes involved. Many people (including me) would agree that the mechanisms for evolution have not yet been satisfactorily described. In particular there is a big issue about how the very first, basic lifeform came about; and also an issue about whether natural mutation could account for species change within the time-frame available. There was a very long debate about this in another thread if you want to read more.

Leaving aside the detailed debate - the issue is, in principle, whether you choose to believe that science will eventually fill in all the explanation gaps that currently exist, or do you believe this will never happen, because here and there it will require a direct intervention from a divine being. In my view, the history of science strongly suggests the former is the correct answer. Applying the principle of Occam's Razor, if science has (over time) explained half the story in a coherent way, why should I not believe that it will one day explain the rest?

As I said before, in my view this neither proves nor disproves the existence of Allah or any other divine being. The Qu'ran is not a science book, it doesn't claim to be one, and it has nothing to add or subtract from scientific understanding, unless ordinary people choose to interpret it that way.
 

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