Athiests.... "Given infinite time, anything can happen"?

[lolwatever]

^ You havn't substantiated your claim that "given infinite time anything can and will happen"

please prove it.

Otherwise leave this thread in peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

No, I have not refuted your straw man. That must annoy you to no end.

As for asking me to leave this thread, maybe you should refrain from starting threads and calling people out (with childish name calling and misquotes) like you did here.

This is a troll thread if I've ever seen one.

 

[lolwatever]

Straw men? I'm quoting you directly:

And I stand by it. I don't even think its a bold claim or anything less than obvious. Given infinite time and infinite resources and infinite time, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty.

You yet have to substantiate it. That's point of this thread.

It's not annoying me that you prefer to dodge answers. Just makes you look foolish das all.

:uhwhat

 

[Pygoscelis]

Reread the opening paragraph of post 20. If you still don't get it, then I don't think there is anything left to say that could help you.

Asking for "proof" of it is like asking for proof that U followed by P spells UP. "Prove it!" You say.

 

[lolwatever]

Reread the opening paragraph of post 20. If you still don't get it, then I don't think there is anything left to say that could help you.

Asking for "proof" of it is like asking for proof that U followed by P spells UP. "Prove it!" You say.

Stop trying to go off topic. English is my first language. And i do have a scientific background, have completed 100-level mathematics which covers an entire section on understanding the concept of infinity.

I'm making a claim,

the claim is, your statement

And I stand by it. I don't even think its a bold claim or anything less than obvious. Given infinite time and infinite resources and infinite time, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty.

is false.

Why? Having infinite time just means your extending the time axis to infinity.

Here's how it works, assume y axis represents how effective the laws of physics are. They're always in effect 100% right? today, tomorrow, day after tomororw etc.... modelling this on a graph

you get this:



to say that given infinite time 'anything can and will happen', means that given infinite time, the laws of physics will become irrelevent. Therefore you are saying that this is the case:


http://imageshack.us


I'm asking you to prove that it is indeed the case.



How about we both put away the personal attacks and talk rationally, sorry if i insulted you. Now let's get serious.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You may argue against your strawman. It is amusing to see you do it. But you don't appear to realize that it is a strawman.

Nobody here has said what you keep telling me I've declared - that "given infinite time anything can happen". Extremely Unlikely and Impossible are not the same thing, as much as you seem to want them to be.

This entire thread is based on strawmen misquotes and misunderstandings. It is ironic that you misunderstand THAT.

 

[lolwatever]

You may argue against your strawman. It is amusing to see you do it. But you don't appear to realize that it is a strawman.

When i think you're off topic, i tell you that you're off topic and explain why. Claiming that i'm building strawmen or rockmen isn't a solution.

Nobody here has said what you keep telling me I've declared - that "given infinite time anything can happen". Extremely Unlikely and Impossible are not the same thing, as much as you seem to want them to be.

For the 3rd time, i'm quoting you directly:

And I stand by it. I don't even think its a bold claim or anything less than obvious. Given infinite time and infinite resources and infinite time, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty.

You said that in post 16. And i'm saying that's not true.


Now that i've stablished that you indeed did say that, time to checkout my response to that in post 25.
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...te-time-anything-can-happen-2.html#post617924

and i said sorry. so please, for the sake of solving this problem, enough resorting to personal attacks.

This entire thread is based on strawmen misquotes and misunderstandings. It is ironic that you misunderstand THAT.

I quoted you direclty, where's the misquoting, and post 25 is responding to something you cna't deny you've said. I screenshotted it too.

 

[lolwatever]

Having established that i didn't misquote Pygo, i'll re-state my analysis of that quote:


----

I'm making a claim,

the claim is, your statement

And I stand by it. I don't even think its a bold claim or anything less than obvious. Given infinite time and infinite resources and infinite time, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty.

is false.

Why? Having infinite time just means your extending the time axis to infinity.

Here's how it works, assume y axis represents how effective the laws of physics are. They're always in effect 100% right? today, tomorrow, day after tomororw etc.... modelling this on a graph

you get this:



to say that given infinite time 'anything can and will happen', means that given infinite time, the laws of physics will become irrelevent. Therefore you are saying that this is the case:





I'm asking you to prove that it is indeed the case.



How about we both put away the personal attacks and talk rationally, sorry if i insulted you. Now let's get serious.

 

[Pygoscelis]

This is unbelievable. lol

You just won't let your straw man go.

This is a semantic misreading turned into a debate that you are having with yourself and attempting to attribute to me.

This:

Given infinite time and infinite resources, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty.

Does not equal this:

'anything can and will happen'

Do you finally understand that?

 

[lolwatever]

This is unbelievable. lol

You just won't let your straw man go.

This is a semantic misreading turned into a debate that you are having with yourself and attempting to attribute to me.

This:

Given infinite time and infinite resources, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty.

Does not equal this:

'anything can and will happen'

Do you finally understand that?

ok fine sorry for the misunderstanding, when i said 'anything can and will happen' i'm just referring to the longer quote in short. I'm sorry.

i'll fix that post up immediately now. Thanks for pointing that out

 

[lolwatever]

^^ ok i replaced 'given infinite time anything can happen' with the full quote, here's the rebuttle again:

-------

I'm making a claim,

the claim is, your statement

And I stand by it. I don't even think its a bold claim or anything less than obvious. Given infinite time and infinite resources and infinite time, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty.

is false.

Why? Having infinite time just means your extending the time axis to infinity.

Here's how it works, assume y axis represents how effective the laws of physics are. They're always in effect 100% right? today, tomorrow, day after tomororw etc.... modelling this on a graph

you get this:



to say that "given infinite time and infinite resources, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty" , means that given infinite time, the laws of physics will become irrelevent. Therefore you are saying that this is the case:





I'm asking you to prove that it is indeed the case.



How about we both put away the personal attacks and talk rationally, sorry if i insulted you. Now let's get serious.

 

[Pygoscelis]

No, you don't understand.

One phrase is not merely shortform for the other. They mean different things, as I tried to point out in post 20. So while I follow and agree with your logic in the one case, it does not flow in the other.

"Extremely Unlikely" is not synonomous with "Impossible". If you disagree, and think that it is, then that is the source of the misunderstanding (that I've been trying to point out).

I did not say that given unlimited time and resources the impossible would happen. I too would find that nonsensical. I said the most unlikely would happen. The difference is key.

to say that "given infinite time and infinite resources, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty" , means that given infinite time, the laws of physics will become irrelevent.

No it doesn't. The probability is just exceptionally small. Given enough tries, every possibility will happen, even the most unlikely one.

So you see, what I was saying ISN'T much of a claim at all. It is a simple fact.
I'm sorry that you misunderstood and went off on this tangent due to it.

 

[lolwatever]

No, you don't understand.

One phrase is not merely shortform for the other. They mean different things, as I tried to point out in post 20. So while I follow and agree with your logic in the one case, it does not flow in the other.

"Extremely Unlikely" is not synonomous with "Impossible". If you disag+o( ree, and think that it is, then that is the source of the misunderstanding (that I've been trying to point out).

Ofcourse they're not synonomous, but I'm saying it is impossible. You're saying it's possible.

If you think its possible, you need to explain how it could possibly happen (for example, a marble thrown from an NYC skyscraper landing in shanghai).

I'm saying the probability of that happening is zero, it just can't happen.

You're saying the probability is not zero. You need to explain analytically why it isn't zero.

I did not say that given unlimited time and resources the impossible would happen. I too would find that nonsensical. I said the most unlikely would happen. The difference is key.

So you think a marble thrown from an NYC skyscraper landing in shanghai is a possibility? That's not nonsensical?

And more importantly, do you think that being can be created from non being is a possible event? More so, a universe could possibly come into existance without a prior physical cause?

If the answer is yes, then you need to provide us some analytical proof for either or both those cases.

No it doesn't. The probability is just exceptionally small. Given enough tries, every possibility will happen, even the most unlikely one.

Erm a marble landing in shanghai as a result of someone throwing it from an NYC skyscraper doesn't disobey the laws of physics :?

I'll tell you why it's impossible:

- There's more than enough air resistance to make it lose all its kinetic energy.
- There's far more than enough friction to stop it from travelling a few kilometres, let alone cross country borders.
- There's physical barriers, walls, trees, buildings, objects that will simply make it stop.

So you see, what I was saying ISN'T much of a claim at all. It is a simple fact.

Not yet, but congrats atleast we're beginning to get somewhere.

 

[sevgi]

i just wanted to say that ur both crazy...:giggling:

no im just kidding.just seems like a bit of a heated "healthy" debate so im breaking in to offer some air time.

please...proceed.dnt mind me.uve accomplished to combine my two most hated and loved subjects together in a fruitful/fruitless argument.that is, physics and philosophy of course.

go on.i will simply applaud ur rebuttles in the privacy of my room and intervene no more.

 

[lolwatever]

i just wanted to say that ur both crazy...:giggling:

no im just kidding.just seems like a bit of a heated "healthy" debate so im breaking in to offer some air time.

please...proceed.dnt mind me.uve accomplished to combine my two most hated and loved subjects together in a fruitful/fruitless argument.that is, physics and philosophy of course.

go on.i will simply applaud ur rebuttles in the privacy of my room and intervene no more.

:lol: sis! philosophy +o( i hate it tooo :vomit:

physics rocks :shade:

feel free 2 plug ur inputs inshalah! ok bak2topic.

salamz

 

[Pygoscelis]

Now lets quickly debunk the rest of the misunderstandings / strawmen attributed to me by you at the head of this thread.

Please note that this

Now if that hurricane was going for infinity and had an infinite supply of all the bits of car that needed to be assembled to make one, then yes, I would believe it. In fact I'd know it to be so.

does not equal this

given infinite time, is it really true that anything and everything could happen?

Though I do concede that I left out one provision in my quoted statement. The hurricane would have to be of sufficient force to move the parts around and into place. Granted that, no laws of physics are defied. You've only got (again) an extremely unlikely (or even most unlikely) occurence taking place. This WILL happen given infinite time.

Pygo agreed that 2 parallel lines can never intersect given infinite time

Given what we know of the laws of math and physics, this is so, by definition, so yes I agree. It would be impossible for them to cross, not just extremely unlikely, so it won't happen even given infinite time.

made a monstrous claim that even a universe like this was destined to come into being.

This one I don't even remember writing. If I wrote something like this, I doubt I phrased it the way you did. Sounds like another misinterpretation or straw man.

given infinite time, being can be created from non being.

Again, you'll have to provide the actual quote rather than your recollection of it. I don't recall stating anything like it.

Don't those ideas directly oppose even the most elementary scientific principles we know of? (law of conservation etc..)

That we know of, they would seem to, yes. But then again, it is quite possible, indeed likely, that our knowledge isn't perfect.

And I'd put something poofing out of nothing or alwys existing as more likely than an infinitely more complex and wonderful God poofing out of nothing (or always existing).

... is that the view of an unlearned

Here was your first ad hom of the thread. Coupled with the multiple strawmen, it didn't endear me to your plight.

Personally i think there's always a cause and effect, being can't come from non being except by a cause.

Based on our current knowledge, this would seem to be so.

But it still puts the spotlight on your God's Origin problem. That's the elephant in the room. And you seem to be trying to solve it in a way that I simply can not follow. You delcare that the creator of the Universe (Allah in your understanding) could not have been created himself. Why not? Are you not here violating the law of conservation of mass that you tout so strongly through the rest of your posting?

Maybe that would be better to be the subject of another thread, so it isn't mired by all the misunderstandings and strawmen that have mired this thread from inception.

I'll go start that thread now. I would like input from all on the board, and I doubt many are now following this thread (as its turned into another lolwhatever & pygoscelis bickerfest)

Ok I've started that thread. It can be found here

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/34969-if-god-created-universe-who-created-god.html

 

[Pygoscelis]

So you think a marble thrown from an NYC skyscraper landing in shanghai is a possibility? That's not nonsensical?

That does appear to be impossible, yes. But who knows. Maybe it landed on some flying thing that brought it there and then fell of that thiing and landed in Shanghai. Where is this example coming from exactly? And why is any of this relevant to anything of any importance?

You've failed to connect the dots.

This

"given infinite time and infinite resources, even the most unlikely event WILL happen with certainty"

is about marbles doing tricks? In this thread I was only speaking to the phrase itself, as that is all you'd connected.

And more importantly, do you think that being can be created from non being is a possible event? More so, a universe could possibly come into existance without a prior physical cause?

Based on our current understanding of physics, I do not see how it would be possible. Note, that doesn't mean it isn't.

 

[sevgi]

im sorry for butting in but ive been following the debate and feel as though i need to say something little here.

you said:
"That does appear to be impossible, yes. But who knows. Maybe it landed on some flying thing that brought it there and then fell of that thiing and landed in Shanghai. Where is this example coming from exactly? And why is any of this relevant to anything of any importance?"

when u say this, u need to be very careful.u cant just bring out "some flying thing" into all examples. that way you could invalidate all arguments, rebuttles and examples. that wouldnt be fair now would it?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Well sumeyye, we're attempting to dismiss all possibility and brand something completely impossible. That's an extreme. Thats the ultimate extreme. So nutty and unlikely things like "flying things coming out of nowhere" do have a role to play (though I agree with you that they seem so unlikely to be hardly worth mentioning).

Oh and I love the "I will rot" above your avatar, that gave me a giggle.

 

[sevgi]

i question ur mentality...

giggling at rotting...fun deceptive games...lying to kids.....

i think your trying to digest topics that you havent thought up properly.take a while to think.contemplate.ponder.

nothing is impossible.just depends on the power u base everything on.ur an atheist. u base all power behind everything on yourself.everything revolves round u, so a lot of things are impossible...coz ur impotent. ur just flesh that will rot.

we muslims, on the other hand, base the power behind everything on Allah who we believe is all powerful...so to us, nothing is impossible....we we actually accept the fact that we are impoetent and are worthless on our own.