Atonement

[POBook]

Dear Ansar Al-'Adl, Sumay28, Hana_Aku, PrIM3,

Thank you to each of you for your participation in this discussion. I tend to be a sort of detailed oriented person and I would like to provide response to each message. I missed out on several messages, so please be patient as I catch up. I also appreciate your respectful approach to dialogue.

Peace to each of you

 

[*Hana*]

Peace POBook:

A lot of people submitted questions while ou were away. That will teach you to visit more often. kay:

Take your time...we'll be here, inshallah

peace,
Hana

 

[POBook]

Hello once again Hana_Aku,

Thanks for your patience and thank you again for your openness and willingness to dialogue. OH, you thought yours was long…I’m going to beat you:giggling:;D

“According to Christians, God planned and executed the slaughter.”

Please allow me to say this again. GOD did not plan and execute the slaughter of Jesus Christ. Yes, GOD allowed this to happen. Could He have stepped in and stopped it? Yes, He could have stepped in and stopped it, but He chose not to. The Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law in Jesus’ day, along with the Roman government of the time, and along with Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus’ disciples were the people who planned, plotted and executed the slaughter of Jesus Christ.

“Remember, nothing happens except by His will”

Let me ask you this: Is it GOD’s will for women to be raped? Is it GOD’s will for children to be abused? Is it GOD’s will for men to be at war with one another? As a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, I believe GOD has two forms of will, as seen in the Bible; as seen in life. One is His perfect will (that which nothing and no one can change); the other is His permissive will (He has the power to change something, but chooses not to). This is another string. So no more detail on this one right now.

“How can you say Jesus, pbuh, didn't want to go through with it and then say He is God? Was He afraid? I don't think so. Yes, according to the Bible Jesus, pbuh, did pray, buy why? If you feel Jesus, pbuh, the Father and Holy Spirit are all encompassing....why pray? As I said, it sounds to me like God forgot the covanent He made with Himself.”

GOD came to this earth in the form of a man. Was Jesus Christ the child of an earthly woman and an earthly father? Or was Jesus only earthly parent by flesh and blood, a woman? If his only earthly parent by flesh and blood was a woman, then who was his father? Did Satan or some demon impregnate Mary? Or did GOD do that—not in an earthly fashion but rather in a miraculous fashion? GOD came to this earth in the form of a man—Jesus Christ. He lived among people—spoke to them, learned like them, experienced emotions, went through times of testing, and more. As a person, Jesus did not want to go through the pain and suffering that lay ahead. But as GOD, He was willing for that to happen. He knew that this was what was best for mankind. Have you ever not wanted to do something on the one hand, but on the other hand wanted to do what was right? You may not speak so that you can hear yourself, but you find yourself having a conversation with yourself about this decision. In order to do what was right, and through discomfort or sadness or suffering, you may have had to give up something of great value that you had in order to see what was right, become accomplished. Does not wanting to do something on the one hand, yet knowing you need to do it on the other hand, make you two different people? Do you understand this analogy?

Hosea 6:5-6: "...and My judgement goes forth as the light. For I desire steadfast love not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings."

When you look at these Old Testament prophets, much of their prophesy focuses on GOD’s judgment of His people at that time—the Jews. In many ways they were evil, evil people. One of the things they did was say they were righteous because they fulfilled laws of sacrifice. It’s like many people who pray to GOD today. They’ve done something wrong and offer the sacrifice of saying sorry—the sacrifice of repentance—and then go back and do they same thing they just did. This is dishonoring to GOD. In their eyes, they were great people—they fulfilled the laws of sacrifice. This is the context of this verse of Scripture from Hosea. GOD is more interested in a change of heart—steadfast love and a greater knowledge of Himself. Did this mean sacrifice needed to stop? No, but there is more to life and the law than these Jews understood at the time.

Matthew 9:13 - "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'"

I find it very interesting that you provide this quote. Again, the context is important. Jesus made this response to Pharisees, the righteous and law abiding people of His time, who chose to believe they were more righteous than the average person. In accordance with the laws, yes they were—they were almost perfect in keeping the law. But in the middle of keeping the law and being these righteous people, they had hard hearts toward the tax collectors and the “sinners” of their time. The Pharisees hated these people; they despised them. In their whole mindset of thinking themselves to be these super-righteous people, they were through GOD’s eyes, very sinful people. They had no mercy, but offered lots of sacrifices. Jesus wants them to understand that there is more to life than these laws. Did this mean the laws at this time were null and void? No. Did you notice the end of this verse you quoted: “For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

“Jesus, pbuh, never taught anything about Atonement, not once.”

What is your understanding of atonement? Websters dictionary defines atonement as reconciliation. It also says: “the reconciliation of God and man through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ; the reparation for an offense or injury.” Atonement is a sacrifice that is offered to pay for something. Now consider these verses of Scripture in the New Testament:

“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life—a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45).

The ransom Jesus paid was the sacrifice of His own life. This was his atonement; the reconciliation; the reparation between GOD and man.

“The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ‘Look, the lamb of GOD who takes away the sin of the world!’” (John 1:29)

Taking away the sin of the world was not taking away sinful acts by people, otherwise there would no longer be evil in the world. It was taking away the punishment of sin. In GOD’s eyes, man no longer was blemished with sin. Man had been given atonement by Jesus Christ.

“POBook, you are saying in one breath he prayed to let the cup of death pass...(and He was a man desperate to have it pass.) He prayed in the Garden AND on the cross. Then you quoted matthew 26:30, saying He could call on His father and His father would destroy them. He DID pray, nothing happened, He was tortured and slaughtered....a completely innocent man!! Quoting from Matthew 26:37-39 - "And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground" My God, does that not sound like a man begging for His life? Imagine, God, begging and crying for His life?”

That is exactly what I am saying. Can you imagine making a very hard decision; one you know you needed to make and one which might have some very difficult consequences. But you know you must make that decision. Once you have made it, you go through a time of great struggle. You either wish you never made it or you hope there is someone to help you through it. Many times people who make very difficult decisions wish they never had to make that decision. They want out. At the same time they know they must decide and follow through with that decision. GOD had a decision to make. Destroy mankind for its sin or do something else. This was a very difficult decision for GOD. His decision was to make an atonement for us—to pay the price for our transgression. When He was on this earth, being tortured and slaughtered, He wondered if He was doing the right thing. It was the most difficult thing He ever had to do. On the one hand He wanted out—He wanted that cup to pass. On the other hand, He wanted what was best for you…best for me…best for the whole world! And so he stayed the course of torture and slaughter for your sake and for my sake.

“Why would the creator of ALL things need His creations so badly…”

Do parents need their children. No, they don’t need children in the strict sense of the term (Sometimes I really do need my children). But that’s not why they keep them. Parents LOVE their children and that’s why they look after them. GOD LOVES His creation!

“He would be willing to sacrifice an innocent?”

He loves them so much that He was willing to sacrifice Himself—make the atonement—for them. He did not sacrifice another innocent person. He sacrificed Himself—He Himself became the “Lamb of GOD” who takes away the sin of the world.

“This is where logic takes over me. HE doesn't need us....WE need Him.”

Again, you are exactly right. GOD does not need us. We desperately need Him…we need Him for joy, happiness, contentment, a real sense of security, and a true sense of identity. Unfortunately many people do not realize that they are absolutely desperate for GOD. He is the only One who can meet them at their true point of need.

“

What would be the purpose in relieving us of punishment, not having to answer for anything? What's the point??”

This is a truly great question…it really is! The purpose of relieving this punishment is built on the foundation of grace. GOD, through His mercy, provided a way for us to come to Him; He provided a way out of the punishment of our sin. Did we deserve it? NO! Can we earn it? NO! Can we be good enough for it? NO! We can either reject what GOD has done for us and be answerable for our sin. Or, we can acknowledge that we are sinful and accept GOD’s mercy. It’s a gift He offers, not a task He expects of us.

“I love Allah, swt, with every ounce of my being, but that alone will not be enough. Loving Him is also following what He commands...if you can't do that, why would you be a candidate for Paradise?”

It does my heart good to know that you love GOD with every ounce of your being. Jesus Christ said, “Love the Lord your GOD with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might, and with all your strength.” But why is that alone not enough? Do you follow GOD’s commands all the time? Are you perfect in keeping His commands? If not, your candidacy for paradise is terminated. Then, getting to paradise is based upon you and your work; on your efforts instead of being based on GOD’s love for you expressed through His atonement on the cross. As a born again-believer, I have security of paradise because it’s not based on me and my perfection—I’m very imperfect. It’s based on GOD’s love for me and my acceptance of that love—a love that accepts me for who I am with my many faults.

“Don't leave it on the back of an innocent man.”

I did not leave my sin on his back. He took my sin and the consequences of my sin and placed them on Himself, sacrificing Himself for me…for you…for the whole world.

“You keep saying God Himself came took on the punishment of our sins, and the question still begs to be asked....WHY???? How would this benefit Him? He is the creator NOT the created. And Yes, God loves, God is merciful, God is just, etc., so why would He love and show mercy to those that don't show it to Him....OUR CREATOR!! He owes us NOTHING.....we owe Him EVERYTHING. Saying "oh Jesus, pbuh, already took my punishment for me, I don't have to worry" is a cop-out, in my humble opinion. Show the love you have for God, obey His commandments.”

God took on the punishment of our sin because He loves us…He loves us…He truly loves us with a love we will never understand. This expression of His love for us was NOT to His benefit at all. It was to our benefit. GOD shows love and mercy to those who don’t show it to Him because that is His nature and His character—that’s who He is. May I encourage you to read 1 John in the Bible. Here are two verses from this short letter of love:

1 John 3:16: “This is how we have come to know love: God laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.”
1 John 4:10: “Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atonement) for our sins.

Again, you are right. GOD owes us NOTHING….we owe Him everything. The problem is us humans, by nature cannot give GOD all He expects from us. We just cannot do that. We can try the hardest we like—but we are still going to sin and dishonor our Creator. Unfortunately, many people use GOD’s grace as an excuse to sin. I question the salvation of these people. They are dedicated to themselves, not to GOD.

Thank you again for your willingness to dialogue. I know this has been long. But I try to address everything as clearly as I can. Please know that we pray for you.

 

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

I'm working on my response to yours. For now, I'm doing what I can to try and keep the thread "singular" if you understand what I mean. But in defense of raising the Trinity, please know that to me, Atonement, the Trinity, Sacrifice, and love are all intimately intertwined. Thanks for your understanding.

Sincerely

 

[POBook]

Hello once again Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your patience.

“On the other hand, Christians assert that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct entities and that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet, all together, they claim that there is still only One God…The analogy with the sun doesn't work because we don't say that heat, light and sun are three distinct entities, but that heat and light are active properties of the sun.”

Consider this analogy: Water, ice and steam. Water is Water—the Father is GOD; ice is water—the Son is GOD; steam is water—the Holy Spirit is GOD. These are three distinct entities yet they are one. All three exist in their own form but—water is H2O; ice is H2O; steam is H2O. You can destroy the ice, but that does not destroy the water or the steam.

“In Exodus 7:1, we are told that the Lord God of Israel sent the Holy Prophet Moses (upon whom be peace) as “elohim,” meaning “God” (royal plural) unto Pharoah and Aaron as his Prophet.”

Matthew Henry says concerning this verse: “Moses was God’s representative in this affair, as magistrates are called gods, because they are God's viceregents. He was authorized to speak and act in God's name and stead, and, under the divine direction, was endued with a divine power to do that which is above the ordinary power of nature, and invested with a divine authority to demand obedience from a sovereign prince and punish disobedience.” The next part of this commentary is very important: “Moses was a god, but he was only a made god, not essentially one by nature; he was no god but by commission. He was a god, but he was a god only to Pharaoh; the living and true God is a God to all the world.” Moses was Moses—a great prophet and a great man of GOD. However, Moses did not exist before time and before creation. GOD did not become Moses. Neither was Moses with GOD in the beginning. Jesus was with GOD in the beginning because He was GOD in the beginning.

“In Psalm 82:6, God tells His chosen Israelites: “I said: Ye are elohim, all sons of the Most High.”

This is a great example. Look at more of this Psalm in detail:
Vs 1: “God has taken His place in the divine assembly; He judges among the gods:”
This word elohim is used in reference to GOD who “has taken His place…” and it is used in reference to the “gods” among whom He judges. Did GOD sit in the divine assembly and judge Himself. I don’t think so. Look at the next verse:
Vs 2: “ "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?” Certain people were judging other people and showing favor toward wicked people. These people carrying out this behavior—“judging” others considered themselves to be GOD. This is why this word is used. Lets take a look at the next few verses:
Psa 82:3 “Provide justice for the needy and the fatherless; uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute.
Psa 82:4 Rescue the poor and needy; save them from the hand of the wicked."
Psa 82:5 They do not know or understand; they wander in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken.”
GOD was appealing to these self-righteous people—these gods to act justly; uphold the rights of the oppressed; rescue the poor and needy. These people—these elohim—did not understand the needs of those in need. In their pious “elohim” attitude, they wandered in darkness, bringing destruction to others around them. Lets look at the next two verses:
Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.
Psa 82:7 However, you will die like men and fall like any other ruler."
Who said? GOD said, “You are elohim—you are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.” He was referring to Israelite people—Jews who thought they were mightier than GOD Himself. What was the result? GOD was the Almighty and all-powerful GOD and was going to implement the destruction of these people who made themselves to be gods. They were not elohim in the true sense of the word. They were going to “die like men and fall like any other ruler.”
I hope I have brought more clarity to this Psalm 82:6. If I may say, it is very important to consider the context of Scripture verses. We can take many verses out of context and twist them to say what they do not mean.

“In I Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called “theos,” or God of this world.(Ataie, p. 8)”

This quote is from 2 Corinthians 4:4. I do not have a problem with this verse either. Satan is the theos of this world. That is why our world is so evil. It has chosen to worship Satan instead of the Creator of this world. As the theos of this world, that’s the only power Satan has—is in this world. Unfortunately, Satan is running rampant in this world and has many people under his control. He has many people worshiping himself. He is most definitely the theos of this world but he is nowhere near the theos of the universe. He is nowhere near the theos of creation.

“But you told me that God died for your sins.” “But on the other hand, Christians say that God died (i.e. ceased to exist, became extinct) for their sins.”

No, I told you Jesus Christ died for our sins. Yes, for a short period of time, the ice was broken and crushed. But the water never ceased to exist. Jesus Christ never ceased to exist; He never became extinct. He rose from the dead.

“I don't mind that you quote Paul, but it still doesn't answer my question. You believe God is immortal yet you say He died.”

I appreciate you giving me the freedom to quote Paul. Yes, GOD is immortal. But GOD never died. The ice may be crushed, but the water continues to exist.

“But if the purpose of Jesus's coming was to die as God for the sins of man, then why didn't he materialise in front of the people and say something like, "Hello all. I am God. I have come to die for your sins so that I can forgive you. Please kill me." Why did he waste so much time beating around the bush?”

In the garden of Gethsame Jesus said, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39). Have you ever found yourself having to make a really difficult decision; a decision that you knew was going to be for the best in the long run but one that was going to involve sacrifice and difficulty? If you have, I’m sure you found yourself “debating” with yourself; reasoning with yourself as to what you should do. Maybe you did not want to do what needed to be done, but you knew it had to be done. GOD had a terribly hard decision to make. Destroy His creation whom He loved deeply, for their sin or find a way out. He knew the best thing for Himself and his creation in the long run, would be to find a way out. There was only one way—He would have to pay the price for their sin—He would have to be the Atonement. Jesus, as GOD in the flesh did not want to go through the pain and suffering that was approaching. But in His heart, He knew this would be right. So yes, Jesus did approach the cross with boldness, but a great desire to not have to go through that pain. I say this to say that Jesus did not say, “Please kill me.” If Jesus came in the way you suggested, the people would have probably murdered Him immediately. He would not have been able to share His message of salvation and the purpose of His coming would have been null and void. Concerning forgiveness: You can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink. Jesus offers us forgiveness. We can accept it or reject it.

“I understand that, but you said that God did this in order to gain the authority to forgive our sins. So now, which sins are forgiven? If it is every kind of sin, as you seem to suggest, then does that mean we can do whatever we want in the world? If not, then why not? If I take you to a resteraunt and tell you that you can eat whatever you want because I've paid for your food, then would it make sense for me to tell you, "Don't eat this" or "Don't eat that". If God paid for the sins, then He has paid for the sins and there's no reason why we can't sin.”

If you really love apples and have an apple tree that constantly produces lousy fruit that’s just not worth eating, what might you do about that situation? Constantly pick the lousy fruit and throw it away? Keep the tree and live with the lousy fruit? Or uproot the whole tree and plant a new tree that produces good fruit? GOD looks at us in a very similar way. We, as people, are like bad apple trees. We sin and produce crummy fruit. But this crummy fruit is not the issue. The nature of the tree produced the nature of the fruit. GOD sees our sinful human nature. GOD is more interested in seeing fresh, healthy apples growing. So, he is not going to live with sinful habits; He’s not going to try destroy our sinful habits. GOD wants to see a fresh, clean, new nature in us. The sinful nature must be destroyed and the sins we keep committing will disappear as well. Too often, people judge one another and say other people commit worse sins. GOD overlooks the fruit of the sinful nature and deals with the sinful nature itself—the sinful nature every human has. You see, this is what is sooo wonderful. When GOD destroys our sinful human nature and gives us a clean, healthy nature, we no longer want to sin; we no longer enjoy sin; we no longer pursue sin. We are given the power over sin. Instead of just words out of the mouth, our nature begins to glorify, honor, and worship GOD.

Again, thank you for this dialogue. Thank you for your in-depth feedback. I hope I have answered your questions. I look forward to hearing from you again.

Sincerely…and with prayer

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi POBook,

I'm working on my response to yours. For now, I'm doing what I can to try and keep the thread "singular" if you understand what I mean. But in defense of raising the Trinity, please know that to me, Atonement, the Trinity, Sacrifice, and love are all intimately intertwined. Thanks for your understanding.

I don't mind including the trinity in our discussion, but from experience I know that the consequence of doing this is that the posts are going to get very looooong.

Consider this analogy: Water, ice and steam. Water is Water—the Father is GOD; ice is water—the Son is GOD; steam is water—the Holy Spirit is GOD. These are three distinct entities yet they are one. All three exist in their own form but—water is H2O; ice is H2O; steam is H2O. You can destroy the ice, but that does not destroy the water or the steam.

I see you have dropped one analogy and moved on to another. This is typically what happens when trinitarian christians debate - they begin by trying to use analogies to justify the trinity, but once they run out of analogies they end by claiming that "God is beyond our understanding". What this means is that since they have found no logical method of explaining how 3=1, they are agreeing that the trinity is beyond logic, i.e. illogical.

As for this states-of-water analogy that you've used, I've responded to it before as well as the egg analogy, the three dimensional space analogy, the thinker-thinking-thought analogy, the past-present-future analogy and many more. None of them work, but let's examine your water analogy more closely.

The problem here is that the three states of water are simply that - states. They are not distinct entities. If we have a group of water molecules, they will have a certain amount of kinetic (heat) energy. Depending on the amount of energy they have, the molecules will either be in solid state, liquid state, or gaseous state. The same molecules do not exist in all three states at the same time. When they have low energy, they are solid; when they have medium energy they are liquid; and when they have high energy they are gaseous. Does it make sense to say that when God has high energy He is the father, when He has low energy He is the son? No, of course not.

Moreover, Christians maintain that there is still only ONE God, despite the existence of these three 'persons'. On the othert hand, does it make sense to say that there is only one water? No, because water is not an individual object, but a type of molecular compund.

So again, the bottom line is that there is no method of explaining logically how there can be three distinct entities co-existing, each individually God, and yet all-together there is still only one God.

Matthew Henry says concerning this verse: “Moses was God’s representative in this affair, as magistrates are called gods, because they are God's viceregents. He was authorized to speak and act in God's name and stead, and, under the divine direction, was endued with a divine power to do that which is above the ordinary power of nature, and invested with a divine authority to demand obedience from a sovereign prince and punish disobedience.” The next part of this commentary is very important: “Moses was a god, but he was only a made god, not essentially one by nature; he was no god but by commission. He was a god, but he was a god only to Pharaoh; the living and true God is a God to all the world.” Moses was Moses—a great prophet and a great man of GOD. However, Moses did not exist before time and before creation. GOD did not become Moses. Neither was Moses with GOD in the beginning. Jesus was with GOD in the beginning because He was GOD in the beginning.

I don't mind the explanation and I agree that the Bible has used metaphorical and quite ambiguous language in these passages, but my point remains the same. On one hand the Bible says that Moses = God. On the other hand the Bible says that Word = God. The conclusion is that neither of these can be interpreted as a statement of divinity. If you want to prove the divinity of Christ from the scripture, you will ahve to bring explciit unambiguous proof, because there is no other way especially when the Bible employs such figurative language for all the prophets.

I noticed how you try to differentiate by using 'God' and 'GOD' but I must point out to you that in hebrew the word is just elohîm for both - there are no capitals in the language.

Lets look at the next two verses:
Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.
Psa 82:7 However, you will die like men and fall like any other ruler."
Who said? GOD said, “You are elohim—you are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.” He was referring to Israelite people—Jews who thought they were mightier than GOD Himself. What was the result? GOD was the Almighty and all-powerful GOD and was going to implement the destruction of these people who made themselves to be gods. They were not elohim in the true sense of the word. They were going to “die like men and fall like any other ruler.”
I hope I have brought more clarity to this Psalm 82:6. If I may say, it is very important to consider the context of Scripture verses. We can take many verses out of context and twist them to say what they do not mean.

I agree completely. So how do you know that the Israelites were not God in the true sense, and that the word was God in the true sense? How do we even know what the word is?

You've given me some commentary on the verses, so please allow me to share with you some commentary I have on the verses. Dr. Laurence Br. Brown comments on them as follows:

For those who claim the ‘Word’ of John 1:1 (“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”) not only refers to Jesus but also implies equality between Jesus and God, I Corinthians 3:23 appears to muddy the doctrinal waters. This verse states, “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.” A person might reasonably question “In what way are ye Christ’s? A follower of his teachings? Then in what way is Christ God’s? An element of His creation, to be sure, but also a follower of His divine law, if the analogy is to be respected. And if Jesus were God, why doesn’t the passage read ‘Christ is God’ rather that ‘Christ is God’s’?”

I Corinthians 3:23 appears to emphasize the fact that just as the disciples were subordinate to the prophet Jesus, so too was Jesus subordinate to God. Surely this distinction comes as no surprise to those who respect the authority of Isaiah 45:22 (“For I am God, and there is no other”), Isaiah 44:6 (“Thus says the Lord...‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.’”), Deuteronomy 4:39 (...the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; these is no other.”), and Deuteronomy 6:4 (“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!”). Given the above, claiming the wording of John 1:1 to equate Jesus to God certainly could be understood by some to be selective reasoning at best -- which leaves a person to wonder what really is wrong with the Islamic viewpoint on this issue, whether understood in the framework of either Unitarian Christianity or Islam. (Brown, p.55)​

This quote is from 2 Corinthians 4:4. I do not have a problem with this verse either. Satan is the theos of this world. That is why our world is so evil. It has chosen to worship Satan instead of the Creator of this world. As the theos of this world, that’s the only power Satan has—is in this world. Unfortunately, Satan is running rampant in this world and has many people under his control. He has many people worshiping himself. He is most definitely the theos of this world but he is nowhere near the theos of the universe. He is nowhere near the theos of creation.

What we see is that here you have a statement in the Bible that Satan is theos and another statement that the word is theos. How can we take the latter as proof of the divinity of Christ and not the former as proof of the divinity of Satan? being the theos of this world does not exclude other worlds, does it?

Now this is where it gets interesting....

“But you told me that God died for your sins.”

“But on the other hand, Christians say that God died (i.e. ceased to exist, became extinct) for their sins.”

No, I told you Jesus Christ died for our sins.

This is fascinating! Not only did you explicitly mention before that God died for our sins (which you are now denying) but did you not also say that Jesus WAS God?!

Let me give you your own quotes (emphasis added):

We believe in one GOD who came to this earth in the form of the man Jesus Christ to pay the penalty of our sin.

GOD did not commit suicide. Neither did GOD kill anyone else. GOD handed Himself over to the Pharisees and Sadducees. They are the ones who crucified Him--who tortered Him and killed Him by their own choice. They did not have to do this. In His Sovereignty, however, GOD knew what they would do and allowed them to do it.

It is clear from these comments that you not only explicitly claim that God died for our sins, but you equate Jesus with God, saying that Jesus is divine.

Yes, for a short period of time, the ice was broken and crushed. But the water never ceased to exist. Jesus Christ never ceased to exist; He never became extinct. He rose from the dead.

When Ice is broken and crushed, it usually melts quickly, acquiring more energy and transforming from a solid state to a liquid state. However, the water molecules are either in solid sate or in liquid state; the same molecules cannot be in multiple states at the same time. So are you saying that the father (liquid) froze into the son (ice) and then subsequently melted into the father once again? This is not correct according to Christian trinitarian theology as the three persons are said to be coexisting not temporarily transforming from one into another.

I appreciate you giving me the freedom to quote Paul. Yes, GOD is immortal. But GOD never died.

I'm glad we agree on this. So if God never died, then why do you claim that God died for your sins?

If God did not die, then you can't claim that God paid the price for your sins. If God didn't pay the price for your sins, who did? Jesus? But you said Jesus was God, so it can't be Jesus. Or ir Jesus wasn't God, then why put your sins on some innocent human being?

GOD had a terribly hard decision to make. Destroy His creation whom He loved deeply, for their sin or find a way out. He knew the best thing for Himself and his creation in the long run, would be to find a way out. There was only one way—He would have to pay the price for their sin—He would have to be the Atonement. Jesus, as GOD in the flesh did not want to go through the pain and suffering that was approaching. But in His heart, He knew this would be right. So yes, Jesus did approach the cross with boldness, but a great desire to not have to go through that pain.

Are you saying that God suffers from indecision and hesitation just like humans? what kind of omnipotent and omniscient God is this?

I say this to say that Jesus did not say, “Please kill me.” If Jesus came in the way you suggested, the people would have probably murdered Him immediately. He would not have been able to share His message of salvation and the purpose of His coming would have been null and void.

What message of salvation? You told me that the entire purpose was that God wanted to forgive his creation but couldn't since someone needed to bear the punishment so He decided to punish Himself. Isn't this true? So what message does He have to give to the people other than "Hello. I'm God and you're all sinners and I'm going to take the burden of your sins so I have the right to forgive you so please kill me." What else needs to be said?

Concerning forgiveness: You can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink. Jesus offers us forgiveness. We can accept it or reject it.

I thought the entire purpose of the atonement was as you said, so God could acquire the right to forgive us. Now He has that right according to you, so why doesn't He forgive us? You mean that He went through all that pain for nothing? His ability to forgive us is still dependent on our will?

If you really love apples and have an apple tree that constantly produces lousy fruit that’s just not worth eating, what might you do about that situation? Constantly pick the lousy fruit and throw it away? Keep the tree and live with the lousy fruit? Or uproot the whole tree and plant a new tree that produces good fruit? GOD looks at us in a very similar way. We, as people, are like bad apple trees. We sin and produce crummy fruit. But this crummy fruit is not the issue. The nature of the tree produced the nature of the fruit. GOD sees our sinful human nature. GOD is more interested in seeing fresh, healthy apples growing. So, he is not going to live with sinful habits; He’s not going to try destroy our sinful habits. GOD wants to see a fresh, clean, new nature in us. The sinful nature must be destroyed and the sins we keep committing will disappear as well. Too often, people judge one another and say other people commit worse sins. GOD overlooks the fruit of the sinful nature and deals with the sinful nature itself—the sinful nature every human has. You see, this is what is sooo wonderful. When GOD destroys our sinful human nature and gives us a clean, healthy nature, we no longer want to sin; we no longer enjoy sin; we no longer pursue sin. We are given the power over sin. Instead of just words out of the mouth, our nature begins to glorify, honor, and worship GOD.

If I understand your analogy correctly, you are saying that (a) yes, God has paid for all our sins but (b) we should still avoid sin because neither we nor God likes it.

With regard to point (b) there are quite a lot of people who love to sin and couldn't care less if God didn't like it. God's already paid for their sins so either way they get salvation in paradise whether they fill their life with sin or spirtuality.

I am not sure what you mean by "When GOD destroys our sinful human nature and gives us a clean, healthy nature". Does God's destruction of our sinful nature refer to when He was allegedly crucified? Clearly humanity is as sinful after that point in time as it ever was before, if not more.

Moreover, you did NOT say that the prupose of the crucifixion was so that He could give us a "clean, healthy nature". You said that it was because God is just and He wanted to pay the price of our sins. Well if He has paid the price of our sins it means that we can sin. If you pay the price of something for me, then its mine.

Regards

 

[*Hana*]

Hello once again Hana_Aku,

OH, you thought yours was long…I’m going to beat you:giggling:;D

lol, ok you beat me on length kay:

Please allow me to say this again. GOD did not plan and execute the slaughter of Jesus Christ. Yes, GOD allowed this to happen. ... The Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law in Jesus’ day, along with the Roman government of the time, ...who planned, plotted and executed the slaughter of Jesus Christ.

POBook, what you fail to mention is the fact that NOTHING happens in this world that God hasn't already planned or or doesn't know. He is the best of planners and the knower of all things. If I were to believe Jesus, pbuh, was led to the slaughter, I must believe God planned it, and used the Pharisees, Saducees and teachers, etc. to exectute His plan....but be sure....plan it he did.

Let me ask you this: Is it GOD’s will for women to be raped? Is it GOD’s will for children to be abused? ... I believe GOD has two forms of will, as seen in the Bible; as seen in life. One is His perfect will (that which nothing and no one can change); the other is His permissive will (He has the power to change something, but chooses not to). This is another string. So no more detail on this one right now.

Actually, yes, that is a whole other topic, but I will say nothing happens but as He wills and plans. Why do bad things happen to good people? I don't know....none of us can know that. The same as why good things happen for bad people. I believe that those that have a life here of sadness yet still follow the commands of Allah, swt, and worship Him, will be granted the most amazing eternal life in Jannah. Those that do evil and gain from it, forgetting the commands, will never enter Jannah. Again....I'm going off topic...so we'll leave that for another thread, inshallah.

GOD came to this earth in the form of a man. Was Jesus Christ the child of an earthly woman and an earthly father? ...then who was his father? Did Satan or some demon impregnate Mary?... Or did GOD do that—not in an earthly fashion but rather in a miraculous fashion?

I am going to be blunt here, and I sincerely apologize if I offend you. God, as we all know, is so glorious is so powerful, so pure, so beyond anything we could possibly imagine. Yet, you will have us believe He lowered Himself to become one of His creations that must eat, drink, uninate, defecate, belch, pass gas, sweat, smell, etc?? Not very becoming of our creator, Astagfirallah :rollseyes

Yes, Jesus, pbuh, did have an human mother and the same one that created her, created Jesus, pbuh. God only needs say "be" and it is. If you could take a dna sample from Jesus, pbuh, do you think it would show the dna of the Almighty? What dna would you find in Adam, pbuh? By comparison, his birth is far more miraculous....created of no mother or father. Then Eve....created from a rib. And how did this happen? Did God provide His dna? No, that's absurd, He only said "BE" and it was. No different from the creation of Jesus, pbuh. Satan was also a creation of God, but no one would be crazy enough to say God fathered him.

GOD came to this earth in the form of a man—Jesus Christ. ...Have you ever not wanted to do something on the one hand, but on the other hand wanted to do what was right? You may not speak so that you can hear yourself, but you find yourself having a conversation with yourself about this decision. In order to do what was right, and through discomfort or sadness or suffering, you may have had to give up something of great value that you had in order to see what was right, become accomplished. Does not wanting to do something on the one hand, yet knowing you need to do it on the other hand, make you two different people? Do you understand this analogy?

As far as God being a man....refer to my comment above. Allah, swt, gave us everything we need to feel emotions, to use logic, etc., He provided everything we need to survive, including free will. Again, this is kinda going off topic, but let me just say, we are all put on a path...a beginning. We know, of course, there is an end, but in between those 2 points are forks and we make our choices. Those choices are what we will answer for in the end. These forks will eventually all lead to the end of the same path we started on, and we can never go back. When we reach the end, we have to answer for that journey. For example: Once I purchased 2 money orders from the post office. One for $500, one for $1000. I used my debit card for payment. I was in a rush, paid, took them and ran to the travel agent to pay for my airline tickets. The next day I realized I had a lot of extra money in my account, and going through the records I realized they only charged me for $500, but gave me $1,500. What to do? I had 2 choices....my fork on my path. I could keep the money, as I had a receipt "proving" I paid, or return and give them the rest of the money. I did return and gave them the money, but don't think for one second that was my first reaction. lool I was going on a trip and could have used an extra $1000 in my account. But, after a short time, I knew keeping it was wrong and no better than being a thief. It was the right thing to do. But, I could have easily kept it. Many people admitted they would have kept it, and just as many said they would have returned it. So, my point is, although the end result of our journey has already been determined, it's how we get there that will matter in the end. Those "forks" are what we will answer for on the Day of Judgement.

When you look at these Old Testament prophets, much of their prophesy focuses on GOD’s judgment of His people at that time—the Jews. In many ways they were evil, evil people. ...This is dishonoring to GOD. In their eyes, they were great people—they fulfilled the laws of sacrifice. This is the context of this verse of Scripture from Hosea. GOD is more interested in a change of heart—...

Yes, there were people then and now that dishonour God, that will never change. That is the purpose in every nation being sent a prophet. They, like Jesus, pbuta, were sent with a message from God, for guidance and truth. Like today....some accepted...some didn't. The one thing all the prophets taught was the Oneness of God....THY LORD THY GOD IS ONE GOD. Many performed miracles, and they all said it was only through the will of God they did this, including Jesus, pbuh.

I find it very interesting that you provide this quote. .... “For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Yes, Jesus, phuh, was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Why would He need to reiterate the message from God to the righteous? He told the people, He did not come to destroy the law and teachings of those that came before him, but to fulfill it. He taught the same messages as the others. And, as I quoted previously, anyone that changed the laws would not enter the kingdom of heaven. (See Matthew 5:17-20) There is a severe punishment for anyone that goes against the law, (See Matthew 13:40-42). So, when you follow Paul...who was NOT sent by God, and discard the teachings of Jesus, pbuh, you are putting your salvation in a man destined for Hell.....just as Jesus, pbuh, said would happen to anyone who changed the laws.

What is your understanding of atonement? Websters dictionary defines atonement as reconciliation. It also says: “the reconciliation of God and man through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ; the reparation for an offense or injury.” ....

Atonement does mean a reconciliation....I pay for something I did. I commit a crime, I may atone for that through a fine or prison...but not through an innocent man. I am responsible for Atonement of my punishment and sins. If you could provide the verse that quote came from, I'd be more than happy to look at it. Not that I don't trust you, loool, I just like to read it for myself, as well as the verses before and after to get the context.

Taking away the sin of the world was not taking away sinful acts by people, ...Man had been given atonement by Jesus Christ.

Of course we will sin, there is only one that is perfect and that is God. Again, you have to ask yourself what the purpose in taking punishment away is. It makes no sense that we are not going to be responsible for what we do. Where is the incentive to be the best we can be and turning to God in all sincerety when we err or need guidance. God loves those that repent in all sincerety and those that seek His guidance. He does not love those that cause hate, mischief and grief.

That is exactly what I am saying. Can you imagine making a very hard decision; one you know you needed to make and one which might have some very difficult consequences. But you know you must make that decision. Once you have made it, you go through a time of great struggle. ... They want out. At the same time they know they must decide and follow through with that decision. GOD had a decision to make. Destroy mankind for its sin or do something else. This was a very difficult decision for GOD. His decision was to make an atonement for us...It was the most difficult thing He ever had to do. On the one hand He wanted out—He wanted that cup to pass. On the other hand, He wanted what was best for you…best for me…best for the whole world! And so he stayed the course of torture and slaughter for your sake and for my sake.

Ummmm, you're not actually saying that God wasn't sure what He wanted to do?? God second guessed Himself? God could have destroyed all of mankind and made us all worship Him the way we are suppose to.....but again, you have to ask yourself why He would do that? We have been given intelligence, logic, feeling, etc., we have the ability to know and learn the truth. Allah, swt, will guide all who seek Him with a sincere heart. As with your analogy of the sun....this is totally illogical. When you remove part of something, it becomes less than what it was. You are describing a God with human attributes, which is blasphemous in my mind. He is so far beyond our comprehension and understanding that you lower him to talk about Him as one of His own creations. He understands us better than we understand ourselves. He didn't need to walk amongst His creations.....He's the creator!!

Do parents need their children. ... GOD LOVES His creation!

No, I don't need my child, but my child needs me, (at least at this age), and I love him more than I could express in words....BUT....if he does wrong, I will punish him. I teach him there are consequences for his actions and choices and to choose wisely. Just as God tells us to do. There will be consequences for our actions and choices on the Day of Judgement. Yes, Allah, swt, does love His creations more than we could ever love, and that's why we have the Qur'an and the word of God. It guides us through life knowing our final abode will be Heaven or Hellfire. How closely we adhere to what He's told us, will determine our eternal life.

He loves them so much that He was willing to sacrifice Himself—make the atonement—for them. He did not sacrifice another innocent person. He sacrificed Himself...

Sacrificing Himself, is the same as saying He committed suicide.....a MAJOR sin. He could, today, wipe out every evil person on the planet....but doesn't do that, why? Is the person that rapes and murders forgiven of punishment? NO, of course not. So the sacrifice was for nothing. People still sin, people will still pay the price for it....now and in the hereafter.

Again, you are exactly right. GOD does not need us. ....

Yes, I agree. Allah, swt, is the provider and knower of all things.

This is a truly great question…it really is! The purpose of relieving this punishment is built on the foundation of grace. GOD, through His mercy, provided a way for us to come to Him; ... Or, we can acknowledge that we are sinful and accept GOD’s mercy. It’s a gift He offers, not a task He expects of us.

Allah, swt, is full of mercy for those that sincerely seek it. Sure we can earn His mercy, we only need to be truly and sincerely sorry and ask Him for forgiveness, and not continue with a life of sinning. He knows we will sin...what we need to learn is how to avoid sin as much as possible and know how to seek forgiveness. The Qur'an teaches that and it's not difficult or impossible. Again, there are no free passes.

It does my heart good to know that you love GOD with every ounce of your being. Jesus Christ said, “Love the Lord your GOD with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might, and with all your strength.” ...Do you follow GOD’s commands all the time? Are you perfect in keeping His commands? ...

It's not enough to just say you love God....show it, do what He asks of you. And, no, I am a mere human, imperfect and certainly will make mistakes. But, when I do, I sincerely seek to be forgiven. Recognizing our errors, regretting them, not repeating them and seeking forgiveness is what we must do. We must always turn to Allah, for guidance. You can love him, but turn away from Him by ignoring what He has commanded so there is no point. If you love Him, show Him, by following what He has taught.

I did not leave my sin on his back. He took my sin and the consequences of my sin and placed them on Himself, sacrificing Himself for me…for you…for the whole world.

I think I covered that already, but if not, let me know and I will go over it again, inshallah

God took on the punishment of our sin because He loves us…...May I encourage you to read 1 John in the Bible. Here are two verses from this short letter of love:

1 John 3:16: “This is how we have come to know love: God laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.”
1 John 4:10: “Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atonement) for our sins.

Well, 1 John contradicts itself all over the place, POBook. It says you must follow the commandments to achieve eternal life, and those that don't are liars, no one has ever seen God, etc. Then goes on and says what you added, it's craziness. And, actually, Biblical Scholars agree that 1John, as well as some other general Epistles, are not authentic and the authors cannot be identified. And based on what I read...although I'm not a scholar...I have agree. And, even if it didn't contradict itself, those are Paul's teachings, not the teachings of Jesus, pbuh.

Again, you are right. GOD owes us NOTHING….we owe Him everything. The problem is us humans, by nature cannot give GOD all He expects from us. ...

Of course we can't be perfect and do all He asks. He knows this. He created us, remember. What He does want is for us to worship Him, only Him, and go to Him for guidance and forgiveness. He tells us to stop praying to all these saints and not to associate partners or worship others. The first commandment tells you that, POBook. For some reason, christians still want to associate divinity to a man....one of the greatest prophets, yes, but a man none the less. A man that never claimed divinity or claimed to be a sacrificial human to give you permission to sin while He never did. Just look at the injustice that represents. You want to give a sinless man all the sins of the world?? Allah, swt, is NEVER unjust.

Thank you again for your willingness to dialogue. I know this has been long. But I try to address everything as clearly as I can. Please know that we pray for you.

Ok, this is long too, sorry again. It's interesting dialogue, I enjoy it very much. And know we pray you find the path to truth.

Peace
Hana

 

[PrIM3]

Jesus Christ(God) died for our sins. but once a person turns to Christ the heart of the person changes. when we say He died for our sin it just means He died to take away the POWER of sin.

 

[*Hana*]

Jesus Christ(God) died for our sins. but once a person turns to Christ the heart of the person changes. when we say He died for our sin it just means He died to take away the POWER of sin.

Peace PrIM3:

To take away the Power of sin? You mean to give the power NOT to sin? How can that be? Many criminals accept Jesus, pbuh, and yet there they are....sinning.

God, is all powerful....He can take away sin as easy as we blink. Why not just come face the people and say, "I am God, obey me." No need for all this confusion and mixed messages.

Peace,
Hana

 

[PrIM3]

Peace Hana_Aku:

Peace PrIM3:

To take away the Power of sin? You mean to give the power NOT to sin? How can that be? Many criminals accept Jesus, pbuh, and yet there they are....sinning.

please let me tell you being christian doesn't mean you'll stop sinning.. being a Christian means that you are a sinner who is in desperate need of a savior.. which is Jesus Christ the one who will break the bondages of sin so that- that person can break away from the sin.

God, is all powerful....He can take away sin as easy as we blink. Why not just come face the people and say, "I am God, obey me." No need for all this confusion and mixed messages.

Peace,
Hana

God is all-powerful what God would he be if He wasn't.. He can take away sin as easy as a blink of an eye..
tell me why doesn't Allah take away sins in the blink of an eye right now?

this is all just a big story and we are the main characters of it.
The beginning which is God
The Creation of human beings
The fall of human beings
The Hero comes to save the day
Then a period of time till everything is set right.
Then the end

God bless you

 

[*Hana*]

Peace Hana_Aku:


please let me tell you being christian doesn't mean you'll stop sinning.. being a Christian means that you are a sinner who is in desperate need of a savior.. which is Jesus Christ the one who will break the bondages of sin so that- that person can break away from the sin.

God is all-powerful what God would he be if He wasn't.. He can take away sin as easy as a blink of an eye..
tell me why doesn't Allah take away sins in the blink of an eye right now?

God bless you

Peace PrIM3:

A Christian means you are suppose to follow the teachings of Jesus, pbuh. He taught the way to salvation is to obey the commandments.

I'm glad we agree God is all powerful and can take away sins....so why use Jesus, phub, as a scapegoat. If you want to be forgiven, repent and ask for forgiveness from the one that is all powerful. That one, wasn't Jesus, pbuh, as he said Himself....on His own He can do nothing.

First, Allah, swt, is the same God of the Christians and Jews....so use the arabic word Allah or the english word God....we're still speaking of the same creator. Allah, swt, never said He would come and remove sin that way. He gave us the laws, we know what we should do and when we don't, it's up to us to turn to Him and ask for forgiveness. As I said before, as His creations, we need Him, not the other way around. If we want to enter Paradise we must try to earn it. Giving everyone a free pass isn't going to keep you on the straight path. Fear of displeasing God should be enough. Wanting to worship Him alone, turning to Him in times of need with all sincerety and regret of our sins, not repeating them, etc.

Your salvation is based on the opposite of everything Jesus, pbuh, taught. Jesus never changed the laws and taught the consquences of someone doing that. Paul, who was NEVER a disciple, (other than self-appointed), who never learned from Jesus, pbuh, or His disciples, changed the laws, created Original Sin, Atonement and taught the concept of the Tri-union, etc., went totally against what Jesus, pbuh said. This is what you think will save you?

Where did Jesus, pbuh, say it was now ok to eat pork or that you don't have to follow the laws, (which means He would have had to change His mind about his purpose here). Why ignore the message from His mouth that fathers and sons are not responsible for the sins of the other?

May Allah, swt, guide you to the truth path. Ameen

Peace
Hana

 

[sumay28]

Okay I had questions,.. where are my answers?

 

[POBook]

Hello Again Hana_Aku,

Regarding message 15:

"the wages (payment) of sin is death and when christ died on the cross, the law was corrupted?"

Why do you think the law was corrupted when Christ died on the cross?

"And, by logic....Jesus, pbuh, didn't die sinless....He died with the sins of the world on Him....who forgave Him those sins? Don't you see the circular logic here?"

You have a friend who tells a lie about their teacher, for eg., and the teacher finds out about this lie and confronts your friend, telling your friend she will need to be punished for telling this lie. You step into the conversation and tell the teacher she must punish you and not your friend. Does this mean that you told the lie? No. Your friend told the lie--she sinned. You were innocent but willing to pay the price for her sin. Jesus commited no sin but through His love for us, He was willing to pay the price for our sins--He was the atonement. If your teacher said, fine, you pay the price for your friend, would your teacher need to forgive you or your friend?

PrIM3: Please explain WHY God would need to kill an innocent man....using logic, not analogy.

Let me say this again. GOD did not kill an innocent man. GOD is not a murderer. GOD came to this earth in the form of Jesus Christ and allowed PEOPLE--sinful people--to kill Him. If your parents make a rule with consequences if you break that rule, who is responsible for those consequences, should you break the rule? Are your parents responsible or you? This is logical, is it not?

Peace to you

 

[POBook]

Hello again,

Regarding # 17:

Yes, I know that's what you believe, but I'm asking for what purpose? What's the purpose in sending an innocent, sinless man, to endure torture and eventual slaughter? God is more than capable of forgiving sin or disposing of those that are evil. He took a sinless man, gave him the sins of the world and killed him so you wouldn't have to be responsible for your actions???

Again, is GOD merciful? Of course He is merciful. Is God just? I hope you believe and know that He is just. How do you combine mercy and justice? If your parents have to punish you for doing something they told you not to do, does this make them not love you? Does this make them horrible people? I hope your answer is no. Justice needs to be fulfilled. If your parents were merciful, they could say they would not punish you for what you did wrong. But would this make them just in keeping their own law they established? No. The only way your parents would be able to fulfill mercy and justice would be to punish themselves on your behalf. This is what GOD did for us. He bore the consequences for our sin against Him. He fulfilled His own nature of mercy and justice at the same time.

Again let me say: GOD did not kill Himself. He came to this earth and allowed other people to kill Him.

Sincerely,

 

[POBook]

Hello Sumay28,

Thanks for your involvement in this discussion. Thanks also for your patience.

Everybody pop out your bibles, folks.

I love this!!;D ;D ;D

1. According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he "died"?

Luke 23:46 says, "Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit.' When He had said this, He breathed His last.
John 19:30 says, "When He had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

2. Did Jesus pray to God to prevent his crucifixion?

I assume you are thinking about Jesus' prayer in the garden of Gethsemane?

-if your answer is yes, then how is it that God is praying to himself, if he is coming down in the form of a man?

If you have a very difficult decision to make about something you know you have to do, do you not find yourself struggling with yourself. You are trying to weigh up the pro's and con's of this decision. On the one hand, you don't want to do what must be done. On the other hand you you know you must do it. There is a struggle there. GOD knew that something had to be done about our sin. This was a very difficult decision for Him to make. On the one hand, He wanted to offer us a way out of our punishment. On the other hand, He did not want to go through the pain and suffering that awaited Him. But He chose to go the way that was going to be to our benefit, not His. What was going to be good for us, was going to cost Him His life. Did we deserve this? No! He loved us enough to sacrifice Himself for us--to be the atonement.

3. Can you explain this please? "God is not a man, that he should lie ; neither the son of man that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Numbers 19:23 )

This quote is from Numbers 23:19. First, may I encourage you to read this whole story and better understand its context (Numbers 22 and 23). For now, Balak was an evil man who was wanting GOD to destroy the Israeli nation. He called on Balaam, a man of GOD, to invoke GOD's power of destruction. Balaam had already told Balak that GOD was not going to do that. Balak was trying to push Balaam and GOD to do what he wanted to see done. Balaam's second response from GOD to Balak contains this verse about which you are asking. "GOD is not a man that he should lie." He had told Balaam to tell Balak the first time that He was not going to destroy the people. Why would He lie the first time by destroying these people upon the second request? People need to repent. We are the sinners; we are the ones who do wrong, not GOD. In this context, GOD as the "son of man" is simply saying that He is not like children who are like their parents; GOD is not some normal, sinful human being that He needs to repent of things He has done wrong. The implication here is that GOD was wanting Balak to understand that He was a sinful person--a son of man--who needed to repent. Does this help you better understand this verse?

4,5,6, maybe 7. Where is your guidance in Christianity? What guidelines and who do you follow? What is Christianity, besides accepting Jesus as your personal lord and savior? Why do we repent for our sins if they are already forgiven? Explain that whole sins-forgiven thing for me. Although these questions are a bit rhetorical, I do want to read your answers to these.

Let me say that I really do appreciate your willingness to understand true Christianity. Many people say they are Christians and they believe in the Bible, but when you look at their behavior, you begin to question Christianity. New Christians, like new born babies, also need to grow up and mature. So...
1. Where is your guidance in Christianity? My guidance in true Christianity is the Bible, especially the New Testament--the new covenant of grace. It's also a correct understanding of the Bible and the truth that the Bible contains. The Holy Spirit in connection with the teaching of the Bible is also my guidance in Christianity. If you want to know more about the work of the Holy Spirit, I will be happy to discuss this as well. For now, the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict me of sin; to comfort and to counsel me as a child of GOD.
2. What guidelines and who do you follow? My guideline for life is the Bible. It contains all I need to know to live productively and constructively. Am I some amazingingly perfect person? By no means. I am learning every day. I follow Jesus Christ, my Lord and my Savior. He is my Master and my very best Friend. He meets my need as a human in a way that no other human can match.
3. What is Christianity, besides accepting Jesus as your personal lord and savior? Well, the first step in true Christianity is accepting Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior. This is what Christianity is. It is not trying to do a lot of good things with the hope of getting to heaven. Christianity is a daily and humble walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. It's doing the best we can, but living with that sense of peace that when we fail, we have already accepted His forgiveness. He is not going to count that against us. Christianity is also a change of heart. We don't try to change because we feel we have to. We want to change; we want to be better; we want to serve others.
4. Why do we repent for our sins if they are already forgiven? If we don't then we are trying to get to heaven by our efforts and we will never make it. Pride is the biggest obstacle between GOD and people. No one likes to be humble enough to admit they were wrong. They keep doing everything they can to prove they are right--including an attempt to prove they are good enough--right enough to go to heaven. Correct words may come out of the mouth, but they are not truly meant from the heart. If we don't repent then all we do is reject GOD's offer of forgiveness. We remain focused on ourselves and GOD has no true part of our lives.
5. Explain that whole sins-forgiven thing for me. If your parents tell you that you will be punished if you don't do what they tell you, and you do not do what they tell you, you face punishment. I'm using a human illustration--be aware of that. Parents are not Righteous and Holy like GOD. Now, your parents made a deal--break the law; be punished. If they are "righteous parents" they will keep this agreement. So, punishment must be given. But what if they don't want to punish you? At the same time, they have to administer punishment? How can they put these two things together. There is only one way...only one way. They can hand out the punishment to themselves. If they did this, they would fulfill justice and they would fulfill mercy on you. Your parents can then tell you, they have punished themselves for your sin and so you don't have to be punished. You can either reject that or accept it. In pride, we reject. In humility we accept. This is what the "sins-forgiven thing" is all about.

Again, thanks for your dialogue. I really hope and pray I have made things more clear to you. Please ask any more questions you may have.

Praying for you

 

[*Hana*]

Why do you think the law was corrupted when Christ died on the cross?

Actually I don’t believe the law was corrupted when Christ died on the cross. I can’t believe that because I don’t believe He died on the cross. That was in response to what PrIM3 had said. I understand your confusion though…it didn’t make sense to me either.

You have a friend who tells a lie about their teacher, for eg., and the teacher finds out about this lie and confronts your friend, telling your friend she will need to be punished for telling this lie. You step into the conversation and tell the teacher she must punish you and not your friend. Does this mean that you told the lie? No. Your friend told the lie--she sinned. You were innocent but willing to pay the price for her sin.

Jesus commited no sin but through His love for us, He was willing to pay the price for our sins--He was the atonement.

If your teacher said, fine, you pay the price for your friend, would your teacher need to forgive you or your friend?

Ummmm, POBook….where is the logic here? Even if I took my friend’s punishment, it doesn’t change the fact she sinned. SHE, not me is still going to answer for her sins and, yes of course, my friend will still need to be forgiven for the sin she committed. Even by agreeing to take the punishment doesn’t make her sinless. So again, this is circular logic. You’re trying to shuffle sins around like I do with paper on my desk….it makes me feel I’ve accomplished something, when it’s just different piles.

Actually, NO, Jesus, pbuh, was NOT WILLING. We established this earlier. The man prayed to God begging for his life. When being “tried”, he did not remain silent as one part of the bible says, he tried, in vain, to have Himself cleared of wrong doing. He tried to defend Himself. You want us to believe He was happy and content to be tortured, beaten, battered, bruised and hung? That is not the case. Only a man would beg for his life. God, would NEVER beg. And to put God on the same status as man, as I said before is nothing less than blasphemous.

Let me say this again. GOD did not kill an innocent man. GOD is not a murderer. GOD came to this earth in the form of Jesus Christ and allowed PEOPLE--sinful people--to kill Him. If your parents make a rule with consequences if you break that rule, who is responsible for those consequences, should you break the rule? Are your parents responsible or you? This is logical, is it not?

And I will reiterate what I said to both you and PrIM3: God is the planner of ALL things, both before the creation of this world and long after it’s gone. NOTHING happens here but by His will and planning. Remember in the bible when it says, before you were, I knew you. Meaning, long before your birth, I knew who you were. And of course God knew, HE planned for that. So, yes, when you say Jesus, pbuh, was sent to be slaughtered, you are saying God planned to have an innocent man murdered. And you said what I’ve been saying all along, If I break a rule, I am responsible…no one else. So, yes, I agree, if my parents make a rule and I break it, I am solely responsible for the consequences….no one else can take that. Finally, it seems you understand why it is totally illogical to have Jesus, pbuh, take sins from those who committed them.

Again, is GOD merciful? Of course He is merciful. Is God just? I hope you believe and know that He is just. How do you combine mercy and justice? If your parents have to punish you for doing something they told you not to do, does this make them not love you? Does this make them horrible people? I hope your answer is no. Justice needs to be fulfilled.

parents were merciful, they could say they would not punish you for what you did wrong. But would this make them just in keeping their own law they established? No. The only way your parents would be able to fulfill mercy and justice would be to punish themselves on your behalf.

what GOD did for us. He bore the consequences for our sin against Him. He fulfilled His own nature of mercy and justice at the same time.

Ummmmm, POBook, you’re kidding, right. lol Now, please tell me know how punishing the 2 people will totally relieve you of your sin. Punish whoever you want….you still sinned, you are still responsible. And what kind of justice would I be giving my child if I didn’t teach him to be responsible for them. Teaching him “don’t worry, someone else has already taken your punishment….go, be free, sin, God will love you even if you disobey Him….” Come on, POBook, THINK….your logic keeps going in circle after circle and becomes contradictory.

Peace
Hana

 

[POBook]

Hello again Hana_Aku,

I admire your persistence, patience, and commitment to dialogue. Thank you!

“POBook, what you fail to mention is the fact that NOTHING happens in this world that God hasn't already planned or or doesn't know. He is the best of planners and the knower of all things. If I were to believe Jesus, pbuh, was led to the slaughter, I must believe God planned it, and used the Pharisees, Saducees and teachers, etc. to exectute His plan....but be sure....plan it he did.”

I have to disagree with you. If GOD planned for these people to commit what they did, then He planned for babies to be aborted; He planned for women to be raped; He planned for children to be molested and abused; He planned and orchestrated every form of evil in this world. He is then the Author and the Fulfiller of all that’s evil. Is this a Holy, Mighty, Sovereign and Righteous GOD? No, it cannot be!
Yes, GOD has a will. He has a perfect will and He has a permissive will. In His perfect will, no one can alter or change what He desires. In His permissive will, He allows His creation to make a choice. If GOD did not have a permissive will, we would all be robots living in a world of destruction and evil. Nobody would be accountable for their transgression. GOD would then be the author and fulfiller of everything that is anti-GOD.

“Actually, yes, that is a whole other topic, but I will say nothing happens but as He wills and plans.”

Again may I ask: Does GOD will and plan the evil that takes place? Is He the author and fulfiller of transgression?

“I am going to be blunt here, and I sincerely apologize if I offend you. God, as we all know, is so glorious is so powerful, so pure, so beyond anything we could possibly imagine. Yet, you will have us believe He lowered Himself to become one of His creations that must eat, drink, uninate, defecate, belch, pass gas, sweat, smell, etc?? Not very becoming of our creator, Astagfirallah”

I appreciate your honesty, I really do. You do not offend me. Consider this verse of Scripture from Philippians 2:5-7:

“Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men.”

Consider this verse from John 1:1, 14
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD…The Word became flesh and dwelt among us…”

Can you imagine a greater act of love; a greater act of humility than what GOD was willing to do in order to set the path between Himself and us straight. He was willing to dwell among us and be part of us for our benefit! What an amazing act of love on His part!

“Yes, Jesus, pbuh, did have an human mother and the same one that created her, created Jesus, pbuh. God only needs say "be" and it is. If you could take a dna sample from Jesus, pbuh, do you think it would show the dna of the Almighty? What dna would you find in Adam, pbuh? By comparison, his birth is far more miraculous....created of no mother or father. Then Eve....created from a rib. And how did this happen? Did God provide His dna? No, that's absurd, He only said "BE" and it was. No different from the creation of Jesus, pbuh. Satan was also a creation of God, but no one would be crazy enough to say God fathered him.”

I’m going to answer from last to first here. Obviously GOD did not Father satan. But neither did GOD create satan for whom we know him to be. Satan was created as an angel but in his desire to become GOD, he found himself eternally punished by his Creator. There is a big difference between satan and Jesus. Satan is only a spirit. Jesus left the spiritual realm and came to dwell among people—His creation. Concerning DNA, you would have found exactly the same DNA in Jesus as you find in any person. Does this make Jesus evil? No. Jesus existed on this earth and was without sin—the only human who has never sinned. He was fully human but more than that; He was fully GOD. The Almighty has no DNA. He is Spirit. DNA is part of the flesh; the body. Adam had the same DNA as we have. We all come from Adam and Eve.

“He provided everything we need to survive, including free will.”

A quicky; Earlier you said, “POBook, what you fail to mention is the fact that NOTHING happens in this world that God hasn't already planned or doesn't know.” We does our free will fit in with your earlier statement?

“So, my point is, although the end result of our journey has already been determined, it's how we get there that will matter in the end. Those "forks" are what we will answer for on the Day of Judgement.”

First, if the end result of our journey has been determined, then the logic of this is that there must be at least two possible results and only one will come to fruition. The end result of our journey has been determined, (I assume you mean determined by GOD) to be place B instead of place A or visa versa. The end result cannot be both A and B. Now, if GOD determines your end result to be A, but you take the path leading to B, how are you going to get to A? There is only one way. GOD has to pick you up and bring you to result A that He had determined for you. Do you understand what I am saying? My question now is, where is your free will in this situation? You don’t have any.
Second, on the day of Judgement, where is GOD going to tell you to go? To heaven or to hell? Do you know?

“Yes, Jesus, phuh, was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Why would He need to reiterate the message from God to the righteous? He told the people, He did not come to destroy the law and teachings of those that came before him, but to fulfill it. He taught the same messages as the others. And, as I quoted previously, anyone that changed the laws would not enter the kingdom of heaven. (See Matthew 5:17-20) There is a severe punishment for anyone that goes against the law, (See Matthew 13:40-42). So, when you follow Paul...who was NOT sent by God, and discard the teachings of Jesus, pbuh, you are putting your salvation in a man destined for Hell.....just as Jesus, pbuh, said would happen to anyone who changed the laws.”
Hana_Aku: Please know that I say this with respect and not in a critical way: You have a great misunderstanding of the Scriptures and the context in which these Scriptures were written. Please let me explain. Your first question says, “Why would He need to reiterate the message from God to the righteous?” These righteous people needed to understand that they were righteous by human evaluation. They were not righteous in GOD’s eyes. Why? These righteous people upheld the law, didn’t they? Jesus did not teach the same message as others. Others taught the skeleton; Jesus taught the flesh. Lets consider this example. In Matthew 5:17, Jesus says, “I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come to fulfill them.” In the 5:21-22 Jesus begins to flesh out what He is saying: “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.’ But I tell you, that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” Let me ask you: Have you ever been angry with someone? If you have, you are subject to GOD’s judgement. Do you understand that? You see, it is very easy not to murder someone, but a whole different story not being angry with someone. In GOD’s eyes, anger is murder in the heart. Jesus was not changing this law. He was fulfilling this law. Paul teaches the same as Jesus. Paul did not abolish the law. He was, like Jesus, pointing out to people that we cannot keep the law by GOD’s standards and expectations. We just cannot do that. If we are commiting murder (and this is just one example…see the rest of Matthew 5), what is our destiny on the day of Judgment?

“Atonement does mean a reconciliation....”

Is Webster’s dictionary incorrect?

“I pay for something I did. I commit a crime, I may atone for that through a fine or prison...”

You are exactly right. You can atone for crime through a fine or through imprisonment. The problem we all have is that our atonement for our sins is eternity in hell. Because GOD so loved us, He was willing to come to this earth and become the atonement for us. We do not have to pay the “fine” for our sins. We can choose to if we want. Or, we can choose to accept what He has already done for us.

“If you could provide the verse that quote came from, I'd be more than happy to look at it. Not that I don't trust you, loool, I just like to read it for myself, as well as the verses before and after to get the context.”

“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life—a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45).
The ransom Jesus paid was the sacrifice of His own life. This was his atonement; the reconciliation; the reparation between GOD and man.

“The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ‘Look, the lamb of GOD who takes away the sin of the world!’” (John 1:29). This is Atonement.
Are these the quotes you were referring to?

“God loves those that repent in all sincerity and those that seek His guidance. He does not love those that cause hate, mischief and grief.”

Allow me to say this again. GOD does not look at each individual sin. He does not weigh sins. GOD looks at the sinful nature of every human being. He does love every one of us. No one, in GOD’s eyes is better than someone else. We are all the same…sinners; transgressors. You name me one person in all of human history that has never transgressed. I can name only one—Jesus. Us sinners—we are the people GOD loves. Jesus said in Matthew 9:13, “For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

“He didn't need to walk amongst His creations.....He's the creator!!”

You right. GOD ddid not and does not need to walk amongst His creation. But, GOD wants to walk among us. If God did not want to walk among us, why create us? Do you spend a lot of time and energy painting the best picture you ever painted (imagine this), and then when finished, lock it up in a cupboard and never do anything with it again? Or, do you hang it on a wall to see each day; to show other people. Your painting is not you, but it’s part of you. We are the wonderful work of GOD’s hands. Unfortunately, our sin has distorted our beauty but it has not distorted our value to GOD. He wants us to be the picture He made in the first place—for our joy; for His honor and glory. He wants to be an intimate part of our lives and wants us to know Him better. Yes, He’s the Majestic Creator—but He loves His creation with an undying love.

“How closely we adhere to what He's told us, will determine our eternal life.”

How closely do you adhere to God’s laws?

“No, I don't need my child, but my child needs me, (at least at this age), and I love him more than I could express in words.”

Great to know you have a child—boy or girl. My wife and I have two girls—13 and 11.

“Sacrificing Himself, is the same as saying He committed suicide”

Maybe I can say it this way. GOD offered Himself as the sacrifice for our sins. He did not commit suicide. People killed Him on the cross. Jesus did not find a cross, lie on and nail Himself to that cross. Jesus did not shove a crown of thorns onto His head. Jesus did not spit in his own face. Jesus did not give himself bitter stuff to drink. Jesus did not lift up the cross and drop it into the ground. Jesus did not take a spear and shove it into His side to see blood and water flow. Jesus gave himself up to us. People crucified and killed Jesus.

“People still sin, people will still pay the price for it....now and in the hereafter”

Do you still sin?

“Sure we can earn His mercy, we only need to be truly and sincerely sorry and ask Him for forgiveness, and not continue with a life of sinning. He knows we will sin...what we need to learn is how to avoid sin as much as possible and know how to seek forgiveness. The Qur'an teaches that and it's not difficult or impossible. Again, there are no free passes.”

I have to disagree with you. We can never earn GOD’s mercy. How many people do you know that continue with a life of no sin? If there is no one who lives without sin, does that not tell us that we cannot, in and of ourselves, we cannot learn how to avoid sin. To say that as long as we do our best for GOD He will have mercy on us, is to lower His standards to meet that of our own. We become our own measurement of righteousness. We make ourselves to be GOD.

“Well, 1 John contradicts itself all over the place, POBook. It says you must follow the commandments to achieve eternal life, and those that don't are liars, no one has ever seen God, etc.”

Please point out to me specific verses in this letter that coincide with what you are saying.

“A man that never claimed divinity or claimed to be a sacrificial human to give you permission to sin while He never did. Just look at the injustice that represents.”

First, Jesus did more than simply claim divinity. He acknowledged His divinity and pointed His divinity out to the Jews. John 8:58 says, “’I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’” Sadly, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus (vs 59) for informing them of His divinity. Second, Jesus atonement does not give us permission to sin. Anybody who assumes he now has the right to sin, assumes wrong. They are people who have rejected GOD and His forgiveness. They are people who are a law unto themselves.

Again, I know this is long. I appreciate the opportunity to dialogue.

 

[POBook]

You all are fast;D Hope you have patience--I'll try keep up. Order of response...if I may
Ansar Al-'Adl -- Atonement
Hanar_Aku -- Atonement
Azim -- Judgment Day

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

Very interesting debate

Patience is the key ....

 

[POBook]

Thanks Jannah.

Ansar Al-'Adl,
I will address your previous message but one quick question: How much of the Bible do you accept as authority and truth?