Attitudes on apostasy softening?

[glo]

I came across this article, which I thought was interesting.
I am highlighting the parts which particularly struck me:

There's a widespread belief that the penalty for leaving Islam is death - hence, perhaps, the killing of a British teacher last week. But Shiraz Maher believes attitudes may be softening.

Ziya Meral's parents disowned him when he converted from Islam to Christianity.

"They said 'go away, you're not our son.' They told people I died in an accident rather than having the shame of their son leaving Islam."

Born and raised in Turkey, he decided to convert to Christianity after moving to university. He knew telling his parents would be a difficult moment even though they're not particularly observant Muslims, and he planned to break the news to them gently.

In the end, events overtook him. Before heading back to Turkey for the holidays, Ziya briefly visited a Christian summer camp where he was filmed eating a bowl of spaghetti.

The first his parents heard of his conversion was when they saw Ziya on the national news being described as "an evil missionary" intent on "brainwashing" Turkish children.

His parents decided they would rather tell people that he was dead than acknowledge he was a Christian. And Ziya, who now lives in the UK, is not alone in this experience.

Sophia, which is not her real name, faced similar pressures when she decided to become a Christian.

Coming from a Pakistani background but living in east London, 28-year-old Sophia spoke about the extreme cultural pressures her family put her under.

"They kept saying: 'The punishment is death, do you know the punishment is death?'"

In the end, Sophia ran away from home. Her mother tracked her down and turned up at her baptism.

"I got up to get baptised, that's when my mother got up, ran to the front and tried to pull me out of the water.

"My brother was really angry. He reacted and phoned me on my mobile and just said: 'I'm coming down to burn that church.'"

For Sophia and Ziya, a lot of the prejudice they faced seemed to be borne out of cultural ideas, which are particularly ingrained in the South Asian community relating to notions of family honour.

But it's too easy to say this is just a cultural problem. Dig a little deeper and you find that there is a theological argument which advocates the death penalty for apostates, which has serious implications for British society.

Last week, British teacher Daud Hassan Ali, 64, was shot dead in Somalia. His widow, Margaret Ali, said her husband was targeted by Islamists who "believe it is ok to kill any man who was born into Islam and left the faith".

Those renouncing their faith for atheism or agnosticism are viewed in a similar way to those who adopt another faith.

A poll conducted by the Policy Exchange last year suggested that over a third of young British Muslims believe that the death penalty should apply for apostasy.

Until recently, I would have shared that view, but since personally rejecting extremism myself, I've been re-examining the issues which I once regarded as conclusive.

Discretion

I was staggered to learn that the Quran does not say anything about punishing apostates and that its proponents use two hadiths instead to support their view. Hadiths are the recorded traditions and sayings of the Prophet which, in addition to the Quran, provide an additional source of Islamic law.

The hadiths which relate to apostasy are linguistically ambiguous and open to interpretation. Distinguished scholars told me that the hadiths actually speak about a death penalty for treason, not apostasy. And even then, they stressed the punishment is discretionary.

Dr Hisham Hellyer is a Fellow of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies at University of Oxford, and has researched classical Islamic law.

He believes the death penalty punishment is no longer applicable and should be suspended under certain circumstances.

Usama Hassan, a Cambridge-educated scientist and an imam, goes further and says the classical scholars were wrong in how they interpreted the Quran. He is unequivocal in denouncing those who advocate the death penalty.

"I believe the classical law of apostasy in Islam is wrong and based on a misunderstanding of the original sources, because the Quran and Hadith don't actually talk about a death penalty for apostasy."

Last year Egypt's Grand Mufti, Ali Gomaa, unequivocally told the Washington Post that the death penalty for apostasy simply no longer applies. It provoked a flurry of debate in Egypt and the wider Middle East.

Traitor

The idea of killing apostates has become a resurgent theme in recent years, a fact closely-related to the increasing politicisation of Islam since 9/11.

It epitomises the "us and them" mentality felt by many Muslims between themselves and the West. And there's an uncomfortable conclusion to all this.

Muslim attitudes towards apostasy are a metaphor for the wider struggle taking place within Islam
Shiraz Maher

If there is a death penalty for treason, then who defines what treason is?

Earlier this year a group of men from Birmingham pleaded guilty to charges of conspiring to kidnap and behead a British Muslim solider because they regarded him as a traitor. Joining the British army was to them treason against Islam.

So while the debate surrounding one aspect of apostasy continues, it is simultaneously throwing up an entirely new series of challenges around other issues including what should be considered treason against Islam.

When Ziya talked about what happened to him, he was just finishing a report on the experiences of apostates, called No Place to Call Home. He had interviewed 28 apostates in six different countries as part of a year-long research project.

His report found that although the death penalty is rarely applied through the courts, apostates still face gross and wide-ranging human rights abuses at the hands of the state, radical groups and local communities."

It seems that Muslim attitudes towards apostasy are a metaphor for the wider struggle taking place within Islam, between those who argue for a progressive form of Islam and those who argue for more dogmatic interpretations.

Attitudes to apostasy may be a useful barometer for judging where it's headed.

(Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7355515.stm)

As always, I am interested to hear how people personally feel about this.
And how they would apply it to their personal circumstances.

How far would you go, if a close member of your family or circle of friends became an apostate?
Would you wish for them to be killed?
Would you cut them out of your life?
Would you threaten them?
Would you pretend they were dead?
Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?

Looking forward to your replies.

Salaam.

 

[aamirsaab]

....How far would you go, if a close member of your family or circle of friends became an apostate?
Would you wish for them to be killed?

Nope

Would you cut them out of your life?

Nope

Would you threated them?

Nope

Would you pretend they were dead?

Nope

Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?

Yep. See when I view my peers, I do not see creed, colour or religion. I see them as fellow human beings. My neutral mode is being nice to people so that's what I do - regardless of your religion ec.

Salaam.

Walaikum asalam

 

[The_Prince]

if i knew someone who became an apostate i wouldnt associate with them, the reason is because i have yet to see ONE apostate who hasnt become an apostate and gone on to insult Islam and the Muslims.

aposates are also arrogant, they think their gods and scholars on Islam, just because they were Muslim they feel they know it all, but too bad their just a bunch of doomed lost souls as Allah says.

and i agree with the scholars quoted, the Quran speaks on apostacy, but gives no worldy punishments, the Quran specifically and explicitly says their punishment awaits them in the here-after, Allah could have easily said their punishment should be death so go kill them.

as for the hadith, the hadith is very vague, and not specific, so we cant really judge by it.

 

[جوري]

Attitudes on apostasy softening?

No

As always, I am interested to hear how people personally feel about this.
And how they would apply it to their personal circumstances.

How far would you go, if a close member of your family or circle of friends became an apostate?

Talk to them at first, if adamant, then cut them off

Would you wish for them to be killed?

If there were an Islamic state then Yes. Islam isn't just a religion but a full governing system...This is very much treason, no different than the death penalty sought in the U.S for treason.. example: Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg.

Would you cut them out of your life?

Simply not deal with them

Would you threated them?

?

Would you pretend they were dead?

Yes.

Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?

No.

Looking forward to your replies.

Salaam

cheers

 

[islamirama]

i think you should visit this link first to better understand this concept of apostasy and punishment of death in islam.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lBJmm-nfEow&rel=1

then we'll talk more

 

[Roasted Cashew]

My views on this controversial issue of "apostasy" is that the death penalty was ordered by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) under certain circumstances. Forgive me if I got this context wrong but according to what I know:

Pagan Arabs who hated the Prophet and Muslims would hypocritically embrace Islam and then later publicly renounce it and spread lies about it to weaken the new Muslim flock. This was one of their strategies to fight against Islam. So, therefore when the order of the death penalty was given, they had to change their tactics out of fear of death.

Anyway, I recommend the following very interesting pieces of writings on this issue:-

THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM
Part I: The Qur`anic Perspective
By Dr. Ahmad Shafaat
http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm


THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM
Part II: An Examination of the Ahadith on the Subject
By: Dr. Ahmad Shafaat
http://islamicperspectives.com/PunishmentOfApostasy_Part2.html

 

[glo]

i think you should visit this link first to better understand this concept of apostasy and punishment of death in islam.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lBJmm-nfEow&rel=1

then we'll talk more

Thank you for the link, islamirama.
I enjoyed watching it. And I liked the speaker.

I didn't hear anything which seemed to contradict the notion of the article I posted - reasons for punishment being that of threat to Islam (i.e. treason) rather that the life choice of one individual.
One comment that stood our to me, was that apostates who just turn from their faith quietly, should not require punishment.

I specifically asked my questions on a personal level.
The reason is, that I think it is easy for us to look down on those who do wrong, and to be ready to pass judgment on the and demand that justice be done.

What I am interested in, is whether we would still apply those measures, if the people committing the wrong are people close to us?
Would somebody really throw his son/daughter out of the house, if they became apostates?
Would somebody really never speak to his brother/sister again?
Would somebody really become involved in the killing of a close family member?

Clearly some people do.
Perhaps we cannot answer those questions for ourselves, until we really find ourselves in such situations ...
But it is worth searching our own feelings and conscience.

Peace

 

[Roasted Cashew]

i think you should visit this link first to better understand this concept of apostasy and punishment of death in islam.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lBJmm-nfEow&rel=1

then we'll talk more

According to this video it were Jews which were hypocritically embracing Islam and then publicly renouncing it and not Pagan Arabs as I always thought. My bad.

 

[glo]

As a side comment, the video link which islamirama posted, indicates the importance in understanding the consequences if entering Islam - once you have committed yourself to Islam, leaving the faith would be a grave sin with grave consequences.

I wonder if that is impressed on people before they say Shadaha?
This attitude of 'once you're in, you cannot leave' seems in stark contrast to the other which says 'Islam is a journey, during which you continue to grow in knowledge and understanding'.

What if during that journey you learn something, which may make you want to leave the religion? :?

Peace

 

[Pygoscelis]

How about the reverse.

Would any of the non-muslims here wish their friend dead or estrange their friend or pretend they were dead if they became a muslim? Personally I would still consider them my friends.

Is if fair of us on either side to negatively judge those who would turn on their former friend, be it a new convert or apostate? I say yes.

 

[glo]

How about the reverse.

Would any of the non-muslims here wish their friend dead or estrange their friend or pretend they were dead if they became a muslim? Personally I would still consider them my friends.

I agree.
If somebody close to me became a Muslim, I may strongly disagree with their decision, but I don't think it would stop me from being friendly/caring/loving ... I certainly wouldn't wish them any harm!

Is if fair of us on either side to negatively judge those who would turn on their former friend, be it a new convert or apostate? I say yes.

Man, don't do that double negative thing ... not at 5 in the morning!!!
I had to read that sentence 3 times!
Now I understand it (I think!), I agree with you (I think!)

 

[snakelegs]

My views on this controversial issue of "apostasy" is that the death penalty was ordered by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) under certain circumstances. Forgive me if I got this context wrong but according to what I know:

Pagan Arabs who hated the Prophet and Muslims would hypocritically embrace Islam and then later publicly renounce it and spread lies about it to weaken the new Muslim flock. This was one of their strategies to fight against Islam. So, therefore when the order of the death penalty was given, they had to change their tactics out of fear of death.

Anyway, I recommend the following very interesting pieces of writings on this issue:-

THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM
Part I: The Qur`anic Perspective
By Dr. Ahmad Shafaat
http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm


THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM
Part II: An Examination of the Ahadith on the Subject
By: Dr. Ahmad Shafaat
http://islamicperspectives.com/PunishmentOfApostasy_Part2.html

these articles are fairly long, but really worth while reading for those who are interested in the subject.

 

[Al-Zaara]

How far would you go, if a close member of your family or circle of friends became an apostate?

Family -I'd be tremendously disappointed, I'd try to talk as much as possible, do whatever I can, but in the end, their choice.

Circle of friends - I'd be shocked, try the same as above maybe not as much 'cause quite frankly I'm not as much in contact with Muslim friends as I am with non-Muslim ones, so.

Would you wish for them to be killed?

No.

Would you cut them out of your life?

No.

Would you threaten them?

No.

Would you pretend they were dead?

No.

Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?

Yes.

Salaam

Peace!

 

[barney]

Glo. Your artical's author diddnt look very far. Here are the verses.
Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them.

Straightforward;-Kill. (and dont be freinds to those your trying to kill,strangely enough)

9:74 PICKTHAL: They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.

(Which reads that Allah will be the one who will get them in this life and the next, muslims role is not to inflict the punishment but certainly not to be a helper or freind. This is relating to some POW's who saved their necks by reverting to Islam, but were quick to apostacise when they thought the coast was clear!)
005.054
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

009.066
YUSUFALI: Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin

 

[barney]

How about the reverse.

Would any of the non-muslims here wish their friend dead or estrange their friend or pretend they were dead if they became a muslim? Personally I would still consider them my friends.

Is if fair of us on either side to negatively judge those who would turn on their former friend, be it a new convert or apostate? I say yes.

I'd be happy for them that they had found their faith.
I'd be concerned for them that they really understood what they were doing because of the one-way-door, but I think Apostate males get a few days to change their mind about going "renegade", and can safely rejoin Islam, I might be wrong on that, but I did read it or hear it somewhere.

 

[Roasted Cashew]

Glo. Your artical's author diddnt look very far. Here are the verses.
Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them.

Straightforward;-Kill. (and dont be freinds to those your trying to kill,strangely enough)

Shame on "Barney" for taking verses out of context and spreading falsehood.

Quran 4:89
Verse says:
But if they turn away, catch them and slaughter them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” (4:89)

Once again the context is ignored.

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 4:89-91)

When we read it in context, verse 4:89 is NOT to those “who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people.” This verse is only referring to those “withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”.

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi says with regards to this verse:

“Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.”

Therefore, it is clear that the verse only allows self-defence against those who “withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”. Naturally, it would be necessary for the enemies to withdraw and make peace in order to achieve peace. Verse is not referring to “those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people”.

In “…withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”, it is obviously necessary to give guarantees of peace or form a treaty in addition to stop fighting. Otherwise, anyone can pretend to be “restraining their hands” when they are weak, and when they are strong again they come back and attack again. Thus to make it official Quran says to give you (guarantees) of peace, and not act as two-faced.

Taken from:
http://www.islamic-shield.com/2008/01/violent-verses.html

 

[north_malaysian]

Would you wish for them to be killed?
No.. I'm not an executioner.

Would you cut them out of your life?
Yes...If they insult me of being a Muslim.

Would you threaten them?
No.... I have other zillions of things to be done and more important.

Would you pretend they were dead?
Like Zombies .... Of course not...

Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?
Yes... as long as they are not insulting my religion.

 

[barney]

Shame on "Barney" for taking verses out of context and spreading falsehood.

Quran 4:89
Verse says:
But if they turn away, catch them and slaughter them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” (4:89)

Once again the context is ignored.

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 4:89-91)

When we read it in context, verse 4:89 is NOT to those “who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people.” This verse is only referring to those “withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”.

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi says with regards to this verse:

“Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.”

Therefore, it is clear that the verse only allows self-defence against those who “withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”. Naturally, it would be necessary for the enemies to withdraw and make peace in order to achieve peace. Verse is not referring to “those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people”.

In “…withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”, it is obviously necessary to give guarantees of peace or form a treaty in addition to stop fighting. Otherwise, anyone can pretend to be “restraining their hands” when they are weak, and when they are strong again they come back and attack again. Thus to make it official Quran says to give you (guarantees) of peace, and not act as two-faced.

Taken from:
http://www.islamic-shield.com/2008/01/violent-verses.html

The Context of the Surah was it was revealed following some Apostates joining Mohammeds enemies.
Strange how reading the same peice can give two seperate answers.
Cutting through the awkward grammer the verse says to me:

1)Those who reject Islam and want you to reject it, dont be freinds or take help from them until they fear your God. (come back to Islam)
2)If they turn renegade (apostocise) Kill them wherever they are, unless they join your allies.(now we seem to be talking about war;as indeed the surah was revealed in response to such a situation to Mohammed).
Exceptions are:
If they dont want to fight you and their own people.
If they run away and offer a peace treaty.If they withdraw not,(keep pestering), they succum to tempation,(keep sinning)and all they are not doing is attacking but dont formalise a treaty,grab em & kill them.
This has been made clear.

Nutshelled; Kill apostates unless you are allied with them or they offer a treaty and are not attacking you.


This thread is about attitudes to apostacism softening. The fact that there are scholars who refuse to interprete the surahs in the true context would show that attitudes are softening.

 

[Amadeus85]

The attitudes on apostaty in muslim world isnt softening. And in Europe there is no such thing as punishent for apostasy,so there shouldnt be a problem.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Barney

Nutshelled; Kill apostates unless you are allied with them or they offer a treaty and are not attacking you.

Note that there's a difference between:
1. How a muslim should act towards a non moslim.
They should be always tolerant and only fight in self-defense.
2. How a muslim state should act against non-muslims within that state.
The state should provide protection and allow practice of their own religion on the condition that the person follows the law.
3. How a muslim state should act against a non-muslims state. They should always seek peace and treaty's. But if the neighboring countries refuse to give that, then the state should respond to that accordingly.

I guess that should answer any objections anyone could have against this verse. Other then that I'd like to add I'm a firm opponent against death penalty for apostasy. As I see it, the only proof that is used to defend death penalty is for "apostacy + treason" and not for simple apostasy. Add to that there are hadeeth that show people who apostated and weren't killed. Also, for each verse like the ones you quoted, there's many more that suggest a tolerant behavior against non-muslims.

So in a nutshell, it's completely out of context ^_^