Babies in Christianity..I don't get it

[glo]

yes, all newborns are born sinless and as muslims and they remain muslims until their parents change them..

Thanks for the explanation.
So, I'm a Muslim really - I just don't know it??? :hmm:

glo

 

[glo]

Salaam,

Well when i say Christian dont know...the actual line was Christian dont know if babies will go to heaven or hell..

And I still say you are not listening! :rollseyes kay:

I am unsure why you are offended,if you are then you feel it not at my insitgation..

I said I could take it personally, not that I did! kay:

Peace,
glo

 

[samobosna96]

I really don't know if this has been covered but the Muslims here have to recognize that these Christians believe in an unjust concept of original sin that has no place in Islam. We as people today cannot be held responsible for Adam and Eve's mistake of eating the apple we are not born with any sins, man is born sinless but by nature is prone to sinning. Another unjust concept these Chrisitians bring up is that Jesus paid in full for your sins, which is wrong Islamically. No one can pay for anothers mistakes, i cannot pay for yours and you cannot pay for mine. I will be accountable to my book deeds, the good and the bad. We as Muslims know that Jesus was not crucified but was raised alive by the will of God so please dont get confused, Christian beliefs and Muslim beliefs are not all the same, some are similar but not all, as I am sure you all realize. I just wanted to clarify those two points that man is born sinless but is capable of sinning and Jesus did not pay for anything someone else did, for that would be unjust and God cannot be unjust.

 

[glo]

That's interesting, Samobosna.

I am beginning to think that there are many similarities between Islam and Christianity - but the differences between the two beliefs are great and seemingly unsurmountable.

Peace,
glo

 

[glo]

We as people today cannot be held responsible for Adam and Eve's mistake of eating the apple ...

Me again!

Just a minor point perhaps, but perhaps an important one.
To my knowledge Christianity does not teach that we are responsible for Adam's and Eve's mistake. (Do my Christians brothers and sisters agree with me here?)

Rather that until their 'original sin' their was no sin in humans - but since then we all have the potential to commit sin. In fact, we all commit some sins in some way, shape or form.
The only person we believe to have ever lived without committing wrong, was Jesus himself.

for that would be unjust and God cannot be unjust.

I agree totally that God cannot be unjust.
But I don't understand how we can apply our human standards to judge God's actions?
Can I say 'God, what you just did, is unfair/ unjust'??? Surely not!
It may seem that way to me at the time, because I am applying human thinking, but surely God is always just!

Therefore, God sending His son to die for the salvation of all humanity is also just - even if it does not fit into your way of thinking.

(I am aware that we can quite easily slip into a circular argument here - and I would rather avoid it. It is interesting to hear and understand your beliefs better! )

glo

 

[Nicola]

Samobosna two points I'd like to raise with you.

We as people today cannot be held responsible for Adam and Eve's mistake of eating the apple we are not born with any sins, man is born sinless but by nature is prone to sinning

Original sin does not refer to the first sin(eating an apple) but to the result of that first sin.(disobeying God) The Scriptures speak oftern of sin and death entering the world through “one man’s transgression.”

When a baby is born, we know it hasn't commited any sin...but it has been born into sin, because sin entered the world, because of Adams transgression.(sin)
God isn't holding each of us responsible for Adams sin...but...once Adam disobeyed God commandent..sin was unleased for man to be able to commit sin.
I think many, believe Christians think everyone is born a sinner...but we do not!
Before the fall of Adam only good was in the world his sin brought evil into the world. So now we have a choice to choose between good or evil..yet not one person has been born yet, besides Jesus Christ who has not sinned.

Isaiah 59:2 But your sinful acts have alienated you from your God; your sins have caused him to reject you and not listen to your prayers

.


If what you are saying is correct, tell me if what % of people never sin?

and why are humans prone to sinning, when God (who is perfect)made us perfect to begin with because he tells us we are made in his image?

I just wanted to clarify those two points that man is born sinless but is capable of sinning and Jesus did not pay for anything someone else did, for that would be unjust and God cannot be unjust.

Tell me why is it unjust for God to offer himself has a human sacrifice his word (Jesus) for the atonement of our sins?
Do you think God was unjust commanding the Jews to sacrifice unblembished animals for the atonement of their sins? What had the animal done wrong to be slaughtered it was a pure animal...blood is life..all the animals which where used... their blood was pure. These sacrifices to God where on going..
Jesus though, his sacrifice was a one off sacrifice...His blood, brings eternal life...his blood was pure, he was sinless...No other man on earth was or has been since.


One man brought sin into the world and one man takes our sins away.

Romans 4:25 He was given over because of our transgressions and was raised for the sake of our justification.

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made the one who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the right-eousness of God.

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.

Mark 10:45
Jesus said, For even the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

All the Old Testament sacrifices became obsolete upon the death of Christ after Jesus died and rose, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and its temple. Since then, no Jew has been able to offer a blood sacrifice to God. God’s law permitted them to sacrifice only in the Temple and nowhere else on earth. (it will begin again though we are told by permission of the final anti-christ for a short time) but thats another topic!

Isa 53:3-12
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
There are many scriptures telling us God was going to bring us a saviour..
The Old Testement tells us God will use a man to pay for our sins..and Jesus being sinless was the only one who could pay that price for all..

He did it willingly with love for each of us..to bring us back into followship with our Holy Father, like it was before Adam brought sin into the world.

Peace

 

[Nicola]

=Zulkiflim;273937]Heya

Despite all your word and convictions it is clear you still dont know..

You pasted some OT from David but there are no verses wihin that sya that the baby is in heaven ...just that david will go the baby go to the baby not the baby return to david...that's all...

When i say Chrisitan are confused for their reliogn is supposedly about LOVE and thus cannot comprehend that their "LOVELY" god would send babies to hell.....It is a repugnant thought even to those who say ALL are SINFUL or born into sin...

Either God hands out mercy to us or God is also Just in his punishment to us ...He can choose either these two things when we are living in our physical bodies...But he can never be unjust,
It isn't possible for God to be..so how can you believe we think innocent babies are sent to hell because they haven't heard or understood about Jesus..That would be unjust on Gods behalf..babies have committed no sin yet!...Though God does know if that baby will be rightous or unrightous in his eyes..

This I belief is where the confusion lies...you think we are calling babies sinners when infact we are not!

What we are saying is all of us are born into a world full of sin (we are born-in sin) ..This was because Adam disobeyed Gods commandment...he set forth the consquences he let sin into the world..sin brought death, illness and evil into the world. A baby has committed no sin...so cannot be charged with sin by God... if God charged a baby with sin that would make God unjust. God does not punish us for other peoples sins...We aren't being punished because Adam sinned...
But it is fact that a baby will begin to sin...because he lives in a corruptable world full of sin..Again because of Adam opening the flood gates available sin.

Thus as in many thing you would create "Explanation's" and "lines" to porve that babies do go to heaven despite the thoguht that all are sinful...

No Christian at all believes God is unjust...and again you are missing the point...
the baby is not sinful but has been born in-sin a sinful world.

And finally as you say,people who accept willingly Jesus is saved,but abbies that die DO NOT ACCEPT Jesus coherently..thus you create a gulf between the 2 understanding...

We believe only adults who willingly accept Jesus into their lives, will have eternal life with the father...So how can a baby accept Jesus, a baby can't even talk or walk...let alone accept Jesus so God would never condemn a baby to hell because a baby cannot understand, neither anyone who didn't ever hear the gospel of Jesus, or mentally hanidcapped people...If God did it would make him unjust.

But remember that God knows everything..everyones heart, he knows how each one of us grow up..what kind of person we will be......do they belong to the Holy father or the father of liars.
Jesus knew when he was on earth and still does...who are his sheep and who belong to Satan because he tells us so.

Remember also the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 describes a meeting between God, two angels, Abraham and Sarah. God had apparently decided to kill all of the men, women, youths, children and newborns in the four cities. Abraham bartered with God, as a Middle-East resident would in a market place. He persuades God to cancel the mass murder if ten righteous people can be found in Sodom.

Ten righteous people where not found...God killed them all in those four cities besides Lots family.
So God knew their hearts, what they would grow up into even those newborns where killed by God because he knew even those would be unrightous..
So I believe this is evidence that God will not act unjustly...Maybe some babies will go to hell for that reason...only God knows.

And no i dont understand the difference between born in sin and born a sinner..

I hope the above will help you understand the difference....or hope this helps the explain the difference and understand how Chrisitans mean we are born in sin...

There was no sin (death) of humans before Adam sinned.
sin=death.

Adam brought sin into the world..he didn't bring sin into each one of us, his sin doesn't carry on living in us to the next generation and so forth...we are not accountable for his sin nor our parents..or anyones but our own... because of Adam he unlesasd sin and it entered into the world....not into us..


So we aren't born sinners, because sin cannot pass from one person to another.....but we are 'born in sin'...we are born into a sinful world. And man cannot stop this sinning...no matter how hard we trt, no matter how good a person he is..he will not stop sinning without Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us....

Only Jesus was born sinless and stayed sinless throughout his whole physcial life..so only he was able to pay the price for our sins...his blood brought life eternal life...for all who belive in him.

Jesus defeated death...he defeated Satan when he died and rose again...Satan thought he had defeated Jesus, he thought he had got rid of him, because he can't work out Gods whole plan for mankind..though he knows somethings he doesn't know everything....

Jesus overcome death so that we could also overcome death...because in our sins we are dead...we are in bondage to sin..Jesus frees us from that bondage, from eternal death and from sin.

All will recieve a physical death... besides the Christians taken up in the rapture at the endtimes...but all the Christians who have ever lived have deafed that second death...that Jesus tells us about..the eternal death.

Can you explain both clearly.....logically..thanks,and you can take any verses in the bible and mix them up to suit your needs...

I don't really need scripture to explain this, but if you would like me to I will show you.

 

[Alphaseed]

Greetings,

Something I never really understood in Christianity is the role of the babies. Why are they born sinful? I understand how it goes back to generations of when Adam and Eve sinned passed down to the new generation, but they're babies! Also, If a baby died before being baptized or any of that..do they go to hell??

Peace

No they don't go to Hell, Yeshua said "Let the children Come unto me For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Less you beome as a child you will not see GOd"

Children are innocent until the age of recognition (Puberty)after that they decide whether to accept God's salvation or Hell.

 

[*charisma*]

Hey Glo

Thanks for the explanation.
So, I'm a Muslim really - I just don't know it???

not necessarily..you have been raised as a christian, therefore you are christian..or rather your faith has changed after birth, you werent brought up islamically so therefore you aren't muslim..

Hi Nimrod and thanks for ur reply

The one certain thing in this life, till the Rapture anyway, is Death. Death didn’t always exist for mankind. It entered by one man and it was defeated by one man.

who are you referring to here? adam pbuh i suppose?

Death is an important subject to ponder in how God views dead things. Dead things are considered “un-clean” or “un-Holy”. God sees things not only as they are but also as they well be. God sees man as dead, or un-clean, or un-Holy.

but i thought Jesus sacrificed himself to the people's sins...why would he do it if its considered unholy or unclean? and if someone died are they considered to be unclean?

That nature of man has been handed down through the ages. Thus babies are born into certain death. They have been born to one day become un-clean, un-Holy things, dead things. Therefore babies are “born in sin”, “Free to chose what God didn’t intend”-Free-Will”.

I'm sorry if this is annoying u guys cuz i keep asking..but i just dont understand this at all!! its soo confusing.. how are babies dead?? or born into death lol

The question then becomes, what is God’s reaction to the “sin” the babies are born into? We see from scripture that God no longer punishes the children for the father’s sins. We can derive from scripture that God views newborns as innocent. That brings us to what is called “the age of accountability”, the age that we start becoming responsible for our words and deeds.

You said that they are "no longer" punished for their sins..meaning they once used to be punished for their sins?

Different faiths choose slightly different ages of “the age of account ability” but generally it begins when puberty on sets.

right, i understand this...

The Bible is not clear on a given age. I think that is the most correct way to handle it as well, not because I happen to be a Christian but because different people develop at different rates. I have seen grown men that were mentally deficient that hit puberty long time ago, yet they can’t be viewed as responsible, conversely I have seen very young men that seemed wise beyond their years.

Yes that is true, and I believe in Islam those who are permanently mentally deficient arent accounted for their sins all their life and are guaranteed paradise, so then wouldnt and shouldnt the "age of accountability" be puberty? excluding mental deficiency factors...and despite someone being responsible because EVERYONE who is healthy has the ability to be responsible or learn it..

There are some children that have become so corrupt, that by the time they hit the “age of accountability” they are already forever lost.

well when they do reach the "age of accountibility" they arent sinning i guess because they havent even had a chance to properly learn whats right or wrong..therefore they are sinning..right?

Their names have never been recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

whats that?

The Bible tells us that ALL will be judged by what we say and do. The fellow living in the jungle will be judged by what he said and did, as well as the priest will being judged by what he said and did.

Each will be judged Justly and Fairly. Living in a jungle will be no excuse, nor will living in a Church or a Mosque be an excuse.

by judged what do you mean? are there different levels of hell and paradise? or how does that work?

Charisma, today has been a long day, we have divers at the plant this week removing plating on the intake screens. Long hours out in the hot sun, I kind of feel like I have glazed over a lot in this reply and also got side tracked a bit.

Post back about anything you are still wondering about concerning a Christian perspective on your topic and I will try to get back to this.

BTW you have already recieved some very good replies, I enjoyed them myself.

lol ah thank you for ur reply and in helping me understand this religion more..thanks everyone!


peace

 

[Nicola]

Just a minor point perhaps, but perhaps an important one.
To my knowledge Christianity does not teach that we are responsible for Adam's and Eve's mistake. (Do my Christians brothers and sisters agree with me here?)

Yes I believe all Christians know this fact...I would like to know, how this misconception was born!