Baby on the way - How to pay for healthcare

[rpwelton]

,

Given that health insurance is, for the most part, haraam, how do you pay for the costs of having a baby? We are required by the state to maintain a minimum health insurance, but of course this does not cover the costs of the baby (nor would I want it to).

I really want to do this without insurance and put my trust solely in Allah. Has anybody gone this route before when delivering a baby? Did you go to a hospital or have a midwife at home, etc? Thanks.

 

[aadil77]

Whats health insurance, is it an american thing?

Can't you just pay up straight for any medical bills?

 

[YusufNoor]

,

Given that health insurance is, for the most part, haraam, how do you pay for the costs of having a baby? We are required by the state to maintain a minimum health insurance, but of course this does not cover the costs of the baby (nor would I want it to).

I really want to do this without insurance and put my trust solely in Allah. Has anybody gone this route before when delivering a baby? Did you go to a hospital or have a midwife at home, etc? Thanks.

who said health insurance is haram? are you confusing health insurance with life insurance?

i think that health insurance is mandatory some Muslim countries and Allah knows best.

and in Taxachusetts i would hate to see the bill!

seek better advice than here!

:wa:

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Why is life insurance haram?

 

[Cabdullahi]

Go to canada!

 

[جوري]

agree with Br. Yusuf!
money for your medical bills has to come out of some pocket.. with certain medical treatments in the hundreds of thousands such as with cancer meds (which no one is immune from ailing with) a person would go bankrupt just with money for diagnostics let alone treatment, hospital, and doctor bills or go without and end up dead, and that is basically throwing away a gift that God gave you, that of science and health maintenance!

Life insurance is not necessary and it is money to be gained in the unfortunate event of someone's death. Health insurance is maintenance for ones care. You pay for it either way whether socialized or capitalistic...

very foolish to go without.. I know a poor young woman who was only 23 who lost her job was diagnosed with leukemia and had to wait for people to raise funds for her treatment, she actually died..

something to ponder indeed!

 

[YusufNoor]

^^^^agree with Sister Skye

think of it as health care coverage, and NOT insurance. and chew on this a bit:

did you know that some hospitals and doctors have 3 different prices for services?

they have the lowest medicaid/medicare ones. think of them as "the most that the Govt will pay."

next up on the list are the prices that insurance companies have bargained. these are usually ONE THIRD of the price that you will pay if you don't have coverage!

and lastly, if you don't have coverage, you can be charged 3 times as much as the insurance companies have negotiated. WHY? because NO ONE NEGOTIATED FOR YOU!

want to test it, just bring your hospital bill in and ask for charity. two thirds of the bill just might disappear! AND they claim that they have just given you "charity!" which, they haven't! they have been charitable, but unless they hack off more than the 66%, all they did was put you in the other price bracket! [and call it a community service!]

:wa:

 

[rpwelton]

OK, well in my research I have come up with fatwas that explain that health insurance (or any kind of insurance) is haraam. Of course if you have to have some form of insurance due to requirements by the government (like car insurance) then it is OK, so long as you do not go above and beyond what is required.

If you're saying that health insurance is not haraam, is there any proof stating this? Also, is this mainly for people who do not have much money at all, or does it apply to all people?

The reason insurance is forbidden is that it is a form of gambling; you are taking the chance that something might happen to you, and the insurance company takes the same chance. In the end, it's always one-sided, with one party always paying out more and the other party benefiting (whether it's the insured or the insurer).

I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary, but I have hard time believing that this type of thing could be halaal. I know that health care is so ridiculously expensive, but I'm not sure if that makes it OK.

 

[Faye]

Congratulations about the baby!

Healthcare is so ridiculously expensive because of insurance. In countries where insurance is relatively rare, it is not so expensive.

In Pakistan, most of the Ulama forbid insurance because, like the brother said, its a form of gambling, because you do not get the same amount of money back if you have accidents, as you pay in having insurance.

Maybe you could have the baby somewhere where the healthcare isn't so expensive, or maybe ask your relatives for a loan (without interest)?

 

[جوري]

OK, well in my research I have come up with fatwas that explain that health insurance (or any kind of insurance) is haraam. Of course if you have to have some form of insurance due to requirements by the government (like car insurance) then it is OK, so long as you do not go above and beyond what is required.

If you're saying that health insurance is not haraam, is there any proof stating this? Also, is this mainly for people who do not have much money at all, or does it apply to all people?

The reason insurance is forbidden is that it is a form of gambling; you are taking the chance that something might happen to you, and the insurance company takes the same chance. In the end, it's always one-sided, with one party always paying out more and the other party benefiting (whether it's the insured or the insurer).

I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary, but I have hard time believing that this type of thing could be halaal. I know that health care is so ridiculously expensive, but I'm not sure if that makes it OK.

Wa Alaikum Salaam,

It all depends on what kind of insurance program that you have. Not all insurances are haram. Some insuranes are permissible, such as health insurance, home insurance and auto insurance, etc.

http://antomlife.com/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=AD7O0y

I would go so far to say it is haram to live without healthcare insurance..
Basically as if you have guaranteed you'll never go sick?
Someone falls sick everyday.. it isn't a 'gamble' it is a fact..
I don't know where you personally live, but we are not even concerned with actual sickness, but maintenance and regular checkup. .. do you know how much it costs to have a baby? to pay for an epidural anesthesia, or in the one in four cases where a woman needs a c/section for the numerous cases from breech presentation to ruptured uteruses to abruptio placentae and other obstetric catastrophes or for your wife's halal diet in the hospital and her private room, for hospital fees, and nursing fees and room fees? It costs $500 to be in a hospital bed per night, and we are not talking doctor consultations, nursing staff, services, medications and monitoring. Once your baby is born it needs circumcisions and immunizations against common diseases at 0,2,4,6, 12 m of age and from then on booster shots.
Do you know how much to get a simple spica cast for a navicular fracture, or a common case of otitis media which most children end up with, or an operation for myringotomy tubes or decayed teeth or or or.. .. you'll either be bankrupt or not seeking health care all together since most people who don't have health care do without, they think well that chest pain is probably indigestion and it ends up being a heart attack..

a few yrs ago as student and in the hospital where I was rotating I ended up in the ER for a severe headache that caused me partial blindness (from scintillating scotomas) and I ended up with a $1500 bill. I didn't even get admitted or have any major tests done like a CT scan or a simple blood tests or a urinalysis. I got exactly two medications. one for the nausea and one for the migraine and went home with a $1500 bill..

that is something to think about--

 

[Beardo]

Agreed, that its to be considered as healthcare not health insurance. Living America, and from my limited understanding, for one that does not have insurance, good luck to you. Bills are wayy too expensive, and not worth the risk to go without "insurance". Believe me, just get the coverage. You don't want to pay that much and live a life of debt.

I mean, I heard that sometimes a simple x-ray could be thousands of dollars. Our UK brothers and sisters won't understand that though, they get free healthcare. So do the Australians. *sighs*

 

[YusufNoor]

OK, well in my research I have come up with fatwas that explain that health insurance (or any kind of insurance) is haraam. Of course if you have to have some form of insurance due to requirements by the government (like car insurance) then it is OK, so long as you do not go above and beyond what is required.

If you're saying that health insurance is not haraam, is there any proof stating this? Also, is this mainly for people who do not have much money at all, or does it apply to all people?

The reason insurance is forbidden is that it is a form of gambling; you are taking the chance that something might happen to you, and the insurance company takes the same chance. In the end, it's always one-sided, with one party always paying out more and the other party benefiting (whether it's the insured or the insurer).

I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary, but I have hard time believing that this type of thing could be halaal. I know that health care is so ridiculously expensive, but I'm not sure if that makes it OK.

As Salamu alaykum Akhi,

let's look at these 2 qa from Islamqa:

He fears that if he does not have health insurance he will become bankrupt
Assalamu alaikum.
What does Islam say about having Hospital insurence in a country like USA? It is very expensive to treat medically and if u don't have any insurance, probably they would not treat u or u will be bankrupt totally!
Zajakallahu Khairan

Praise be to Allaah.

We put the following question to Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen:

Health care in the US where I live is very expensive, and if I do not have health insurance they will not treat me. If I want to pay for my own health care, I will go bankrupt and may even end up in prison. Is this considered to be a valid excuse for taking out health insurance, which is a form of gambling, given that there is no Islamically-acceptable form of insurance and I cannot afford to pay for health care for myself, my children and my wife in the way that is usual in some other countries?

The shaykh, may Allaah preserve him, answered as follows:

“So long as the man knows that this is a form of gambling, this is not permissible because it is of the works of the Shaytaan. He should rely on Allaah and put his trust in Him, because whoever puts his trust in Allaah, Allaah will suffice him, and whoever fears Allaah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (of every difficulty). So it is not permissible for him to get involved in insurance.”

We have already explained that the reason why health insurance is like a form of gambling is that a person pays a sum of money which becomes the property of the insurance company; if he falls sick or has an accident he will benefit, otherwise his money is gone. Moreover, the benefits he gains may be equal to what he has paid, or they may be more, or less. This involves jahaalah (buying something sight unseen) and undue risk, or consuming wealth unlawfully. It also means that one of the two parties will suffer a loss. I wish that some of the Muslims or wise people would set up cooperative insurance institutions that are in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah, the basic idea of which would be for people to cooperate in making payments to a specific account (that is not owned by any third party), so that if any one of them falls sick or has an accident, he will be compensated, with the consent of his partners. There would be nothing wrong with paying a salary to those who take care of this account, or with investing the money in another company according to a certain level of profit. And Allaah is the source of strength.
Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/4210/health insurance

A tax is taken from them then they are allowed to benefit from health insurance without any fees
Is it haram to apply for health insurance given by the State if we are not directly buying insurance? Here, where we live, insuance money is derived from taxes to support people who can't afford to pay for medicines or examinations. The people who have the insurance don't pay the company anything. Would I be allowed to apply for this? Please note that I, otherwise, would not be able to pay for my medical exams or medications.

Praise be to Allaah.

Commercial insurance is based on riba, ambiguity and gambling, and it is haraam in all forms, as has previously been explained in the answers to questions number 8889 and 39474.

But if a person is forced to do that, there is nothing wrong with it and the sin is on the one who forces him to do it.

If you do not pay any money when benefitting from the insurance, rather the money is taken from you in the form of a tax and this tax is compulsory, then in that case there is nothing wrong with benefiting from the insurance, and you come under the same ruling as those who are forced to do it.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/125935/health insurance

as i see it, PAYING for health insurance is called haram, but USING it [under certain conditions] ISN'T!

so all of the Muslim immigrants here [in the US], especially those pre-contract on America who get cradle to grave SSI, can use all of the state health insurance that they want because I AM PAYING for it, and in your state, YOU ARE PAYING for it.

also poor and working poor who are getting entitlements are cool under this ruling.

so, as i see it, if you drop your level of income to that which makes you entitled to "FREE" health care, then you have HALAL health care/insurance. pay ONE CENT for it and it becomes HARAM! think about it!

this is ridiculous, but it wasn't the main point that i wanted to make

looking at the red bit:

I wish that some of the Muslims or wise people would set up cooperative insurance institutions that are in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah, the basic idea of which would be for people to cooperate in making payments to a specific account (that is not owned by any third party), so that if any one of them falls sick or has an accident, he will be compensated, with the consent of his partners. There would be nothing wrong with paying a salary to those who take care of this account, or with investing the money in another company according to a certain level of profit

if you join a non-profit collective [though i doubt based on Shariah, at least not here], i thinking of Group Health, wouldn't it fit the latter part? this part:

There would be nothing wrong with paying a salary to those who take care of this account, or with investing the money in another company according to a certain level of profit

the only part of coverage that would be near haram would be in how they funded their stop gap for catastrophic care, unless it is self funded.

it seems to me that if you live in a banking/petro chemical controlled country like ours, NOT having some form of health care is a gamble!

and Allah knows best!

thoughts?

:wa:

 

[جوري]

Sob7an Allah.. you know I was about to start a topic on how much would you pay for a single enzyme from the millions of enzymes you have in your body, which if you don't have death will ensue in a matter of years. idursulfase which I can guarantee no one here has heard of, and it is true that if we knew the blessings of Allah swt we wouldn't be able to count them.. but here is an enzyme that we all have for free that some 200 unfortunate souls in the U.S have to buy and costs up to $300000
http://www.boston.com/business/specials/bio2007/articles/high_costs/

a condition that affects a handful of people and can really strike anyone...
something to think about on multiple levels.

Most people think that these pharm companies are thieves.. well unless you have worked in research and know what goes into research, isolation of compounds, phases of trials, marketing and development, then you'd actually understand, that, that barely covers the company's costs and believe it or not if you understood how much red tape and politics, you'd actually understand why there are such things as outbreaks of the flu..
there are only two companies in the U.S that manufacture vaccines, and when hassled about every nook and cranny from lay people (for instance the hype about autism and MMR) then they'd rather simply cut their losses and move on.. or if you have some rich celebrity funding some cause, then you're lucky some funding goes into it.. do you ever wonder why there is still no Malaria vaccine in the world? when you have a vaccine for something as stupid as Lyme? check the demographics and funding and think about it a little...

anyhow I have swerved off topic and I wouldn't mind this being made into a separate thread.. how much would you pay for a single enzyme if it meant the difference between life and death?

 

[Clover]

Honestly, I would not want to have a kid without good medical insurance. I am going to be in the Army, probably for a good part of my life, and they are one of the best when it comes to medical insurance, I mean, they literally take care of your family, and will not let them starve/die, unless you know, its something that can't be stopped. Cause they don't want a sad soldier, or a un-healthy one.

 

[جوري]

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odUrHuIRD2s[/MEDIA]

REFLECT ON THIS FROM EVERY ANGLE INSHA'ALLAH


​

 

[جوري]

Honestly, I would not want to have a kid without good medical insurance. I am going to be in the Army, probably for a good part of my life, and they are one of the best when it comes to medical insurance, I mean, they literally take care of your family, and will not let them starve/die, unless you know, its something that can't be stopped. Cause they don't want a sad soldier, or a un-healthy one.

I have taken care of U.S soldiers who were actually abandoned by the U.S army I don't know the reasons. Gave a prescription of Amitriptyline to one with chronic pain, nightmares and depression, and she professed that she killed a seven year old Iraqi boy, that is where she was deployed.

So she had death on her consciousness to live with for the rest of her life and the cheapest medication her own money can buy!

peace

 

[Clover]

I have taken care of U.S soldiers who were actually abandoned by the U.S army I don't know the reasons. Gave a prescription of Amitriptyline to one with chronic pain, nightmares and depression, and she professed that she killed a seven year old Iraqi boy, that is where she was deployed.

So she had death on her consciousness to live with for the rest of her life and the cheapest medication her own money can buy!

peace

Your point is? The Army isn't perfect, but it's a lot better then what most organizations/companies offer. My uncle was left out in the cold, but the majority of others in the family weren't.

 

[جوري]

Your point is? The Army isn't perfect, but it's a lot better then what most organizations/companies offer. My uncle was left out in the cold, but the majority of others in the family weren't.

the point is rather obvious though I have no desire to meander the topic.. you said:

and they are one of the best when it comes to medical insurance, I mean, they literally take care of your family, and will not let them starve/die, unless you know, its something that can't be stopped. Cause they don't want a sad soldier, or a un-healthy one.

and it is simply not true.. Amitriptyline costs a few bucks and it isn't life or limb saving situation and an army woman was denied it. I can only hope the reasons are a form of punishment for murdering other people's children, but that is a conjecture and a topic for another day and another thread!

all the best

 

[Clover]

PM FTW!

I hope you find a way to settle this issue madam.

 

[جوري]

Bro. Woodrow is best to answer these Q's he's a veteran.. your health care can only be provided through VA. hospitals I believe.. but yeah it will be well paid for!