Baha'i Apologetics
- Thread starter RonPrice
- Start date
- Replies 53
- Views 8K
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Halal Food Gastronomy | vBulletin 4 php 8.0 patch
north_malaysian
IB Legend
- Messages
- 8,215
- Reaction score
- 831
From, my understanding, Baha'is wont accept the Qadiani prophet, would they?
Actually the Lahori branch are accepted as Sunni Muslims because they only refer Mirza Ghulam ahmad as Mujaddid only. Even Al Azhar religious authority accept the Lahoris as Sunnis.
I have often been asked in the 53 years I have been associated with the Baha'i Faith whether such and such a person is included in the Baha'i pantheon of prophets, messengers from God and Great Teachers with a capital "T." People of North American Indian background have asked me about several Indian religious figures in Indian prophetic history; people of Chinese background have asked about Confucious; indeed, the various races, indigenous groups, ethnic affiliations, national and religious associations have asked about a particular personage and whether that personage is or should be included in the Baha'i enumeration of special Figures in history with a capital "F."
Although there is what you might call 'a cross-cultural-messianism' in the Baha'i Faith and an attmept to see the similarities between all the peoples of the world and their respective religions and traditions, only certain Souls in history are included in that special group. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (1839-1908 CE) has not been included in that group, as far as I know.-Ron Price, Tasmania
Although there is what you might call 'a cross-cultural-messianism' in the Baha'i Faith and an attmept to see the similarities between all the peoples of the world and their respective religions and traditions, only certain Souls in history are included in that special group. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (1839-1908 CE) has not been included in that group, as far as I know.-Ron Price, Tasmania
north_malaysian
IB Legend
- Messages
- 8,215
- Reaction score
- 831
You live in George Town, Tasmania?
I was born in George Town, Malaysia.
Same name of town but in different countries. When was your town founded? Mine was in 1786.
The manager of our local post office tells me there are 16 George Towns in the world. I've never checked this out. This one in Tasmania was founded in 1804. It's the oldest tonw in Australia. Sydney and Hobart are older but they are now cities; whereas George Town is still a town with about 7000 inhabitants. King George the 3rd spread his name around the world or, should I say, his name was spread by others. To conclude with a brief history of this particular King let me add that:
"George III (George William Frederick) (4 June 1738 – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland from 25 October 1760 until 1 January 1801, and thereafter King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until his death. He was concurrently Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and thus Elector (and later King) of Hanover. The Electorate became the Kingdom of Hanover on 12 October 1814. George was the third British monarch of the House of Hanover, but the first to be born in Britain and use English as his first language. During George III's reign, Britain lost many of its colonies in North America, which became the United States. Also during his reign, the realms of Great Britain and Ireland were joined together to form the United Kingdom.
Later in his reign George III suffered from recurrent and eventually permanent mental illness. It is thought now that he suffered from mental and nervous disorders as a consequence of the blood disease porphyria, which struck several British monarchs. Recently, owing to studies showing high levels of the poison arsenic in King George's hair, arsenic is also thought to be a possible cause of King George's insanity and health problems. After a final relapse in 1811, George's eldest son, The Prince George, Prince of Wales ruled as Prince Regent. Upon George's death, the Prince of Wales succeeded his father as George IV."
This may not interest you that much but it is entirely possible that your town was also named after this King.-Ron:statisfie
George III has been nicknamed Farmer George, for "his plain, homely, thrifty manners and tastes" and because of his passionate interest in agriculture.
"George III (George William Frederick) (4 June 1738 – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland from 25 October 1760 until 1 January 1801, and thereafter King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until his death. He was concurrently Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and thus Elector (and later King) of Hanover. The Electorate became the Kingdom of Hanover on 12 October 1814. George was the third British monarch of the House of Hanover, but the first to be born in Britain and use English as his first language. During George III's reign, Britain lost many of its colonies in North America, which became the United States. Also during his reign, the realms of Great Britain and Ireland were joined together to form the United Kingdom.
Later in his reign George III suffered from recurrent and eventually permanent mental illness. It is thought now that he suffered from mental and nervous disorders as a consequence of the blood disease porphyria, which struck several British monarchs. Recently, owing to studies showing high levels of the poison arsenic in King George's hair, arsenic is also thought to be a possible cause of King George's insanity and health problems. After a final relapse in 1811, George's eldest son, The Prince George, Prince of Wales ruled as Prince Regent. Upon George's death, the Prince of Wales succeeded his father as George IV."
This may not interest you that much but it is entirely possible that your town was also named after this King.-Ron:statisfie
George III has been nicknamed Farmer George, for "his plain, homely, thrifty manners and tastes" and because of his passionate interest in agriculture.
north_malaysian
IB Legend
- Messages
- 8,215
- Reaction score
- 831
Yupp, u r right. It's named after King George III. It was open by Captain Francis Light in 1786 as a fort called Fort Cornwallis. Then after the fort became bigger and more prosper they named it as George Town. The population is about 180,000. It's the state capital for Penang Island. George Town is the most 'British' town in Malaysia when it comes to buildings. The populations are 70% Chinese, 15% Malays/Muslims, 10% Indians, 5% others including English, Scottish, Dutch, Thais, Burmese, Japanese, Koreans, Germans and Eurasians. Before WWII there are Armenians and Jews from Iraq, India, UK and Romania. Now the Armenians are extinct and less than 10 Jews living in George Town.
imranshaykh
New member
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 0
You can also refer to www.bahaiawareness.com.
Since you offered some bahai links, here is one that offers an alternative perspective.
I came into this discussion by chance and I thank Allah for that. Here are a few points to ponder:
1. While much has been said about the Bahai Faith, Muslims must recognise, as all Bahais must that there is absolutely no prophecy regarding Bahaullah in Islam.
2. Bahais intepret the Quran in their own ways to suit their purpose. Given that not many Muslims are familiar with Quran (unfortunately), this can be misleading. Therefore, never taken any verse quoted by the Bahais in isolation. Always seek the reference and refer to the Holy Quran and the traditions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) for the correct interpretation of the verse.
3. Bahais reject physical resurrection and also finality of prophethood and messengership of the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh). By this criteria, they are considered to be apostates.
4. Bahais pay lip service to respect for the Holy Prophet (pbuh). Firstly, they say that his religion Islam is the same as Hinduism, Buddhism which is totally incorrect. Secondly, by rejecting the concept of physical resurrection, they reject all the traditions of the prophet in this regard.
These are just a few points. One can refer to my web site www.bahaiawareness.com to know more about how the Bahais actually percieve Islam.
Regards
Imran Shaykh
www.bahaiawareness.com
imranshaykh
New member
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 0
Salaams:
Whats a 'Baha'i' and whats their belifs?
You can refer to www.bahaiawareness.com for more information.
Regards
Imran Shaykh
I have not been at this site for about seven months. I notice on a quick reread of the thread that some of ther questrions are answered to people's satisfaction and some are not. I thought I would open another thread and clal it "Baha'i Apologetics2." There are obviously many people who would like to continue the discussion and I thank those who have participated in this thread. As one participant said, we must agree to disagree on some fronts, on some issues. How true that is!
I'll post a final paragraph on my approach to Baha'i apologetics and see any interested folk in the next thread.--Ron Price, Tasmania.:shade:
_______________________
Apologetics is a branch of systematic theology, although some experience it’s thrust in religious studies or philosophy of religion courses. Some encounter it on the internet for the first time in a more populist and usually much less academic form. As I see it, apologetics is primarily concerned with the protection of a religious position, the refutation of that position's assailants and, in the larger sense, the exploration of that position in the context of prevailing philosophies and standards in a secular society. Apologetics, to put it slightly differently, is concerned with answering critical inquiries, criticism of a position, in a rational manner. Apologetics is not possible, it seems to me anyway, without a commitment to and a desire to defend a position. For me, the core of my position I could express in one phrase: the Baha'i Revelation. With that said, though, the activity I engage in, namely, apologetics, is a never ending exercise.
The apologetics that concerns me is not so much Christian, Islamic or any one of a variety of what might be called secular apologetics, but rather Baha'i apologetics. There are many points of comparison and contrast, though, which I won't go into here. Christians, Muslims or secular humanists will have the opportunity to defend their positions by the use of apologetics; secular humanism is a simple label for the millions of westerners who have no traditional religion to speak of; they can argue their cases if they so desire here. And I will in turn defend the Baha'i Faith by the use of apologetics. In the process we will all, hopefully, learn something about our respective Faiths, our religions, which we hold to our hearts dearly.
At the outset, then, in this my last posting in this thread, my intention is simply to make this start, to state what you might call "my apologetics position." This brief statement indicates, in broad outline, where I am coming from in the weeks and months ahead. -Ron Price with thanks to Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics?" Baha'i Studies Review, Vol. 10, 2001/2002.
____________________________
That's all folks!
I'll post a final paragraph on my approach to Baha'i apologetics and see any interested folk in the next thread.--Ron Price, Tasmania.:shade:
_______________________
Apologetics is a branch of systematic theology, although some experience it’s thrust in religious studies or philosophy of religion courses. Some encounter it on the internet for the first time in a more populist and usually much less academic form. As I see it, apologetics is primarily concerned with the protection of a religious position, the refutation of that position's assailants and, in the larger sense, the exploration of that position in the context of prevailing philosophies and standards in a secular society. Apologetics, to put it slightly differently, is concerned with answering critical inquiries, criticism of a position, in a rational manner. Apologetics is not possible, it seems to me anyway, without a commitment to and a desire to defend a position. For me, the core of my position I could express in one phrase: the Baha'i Revelation. With that said, though, the activity I engage in, namely, apologetics, is a never ending exercise.
The apologetics that concerns me is not so much Christian, Islamic or any one of a variety of what might be called secular apologetics, but rather Baha'i apologetics. There are many points of comparison and contrast, though, which I won't go into here. Christians, Muslims or secular humanists will have the opportunity to defend their positions by the use of apologetics; secular humanism is a simple label for the millions of westerners who have no traditional religion to speak of; they can argue their cases if they so desire here. And I will in turn defend the Baha'i Faith by the use of apologetics. In the process we will all, hopefully, learn something about our respective Faiths, our religions, which we hold to our hearts dearly.
At the outset, then, in this my last posting in this thread, my intention is simply to make this start, to state what you might call "my apologetics position." This brief statement indicates, in broad outline, where I am coming from in the weeks and months ahead. -Ron Price with thanks to Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics?" Baha'i Studies Review, Vol. 10, 2001/2002.
____________________________
That's all folks!
Baha'i Apologetics 2
In June 2006, the first thread that dealt with Baha'i apologetics came to an end. I became busy elsewhere in my life and other posters ceased to post on the thread. Having reread the thread a few minutes ago, I thought I would open this 2nd thread on "Baha'i Apologetics." Here is my first posting:
_________________________________
I want in this my first posting on this 2nd thread to finish, as best I can, outlining a basic orientation to Baha’i apologetics. Critical scholarly contributions or criticism raised in public or private discussions, an obvious part of apologetics, should not necessarily be equated with hostility. Often questions are perfectly legitimate aspects of a person's search for an answer to an intellectual conundrum. Paul Tillich, the great Protestant theologian, once expressed the view that apologetics was an "answering theology."(Systematic Theology, U. of Chicago, 1967, Vol.1, p6.)
I have always been attracted to the founder of the Baha'i Faith's exhortations in discussion to "speak with words as mild as milk," with "the utmost lenience and forbearance." I am also aware that, in cases of rude or hostile attack, rebuttal with a harsher tone may well be justified. It does not help an apologist to belong to those "watchmen" the prophet Isaiah calls "dumb dogs that cannot bark."(Isaiah, 56:10) Still, my personal preference is for mildness rather than overt and aggressive hostility in words or deeds. Of course, over a lifetime we all ere and stray in various ways.
In its essence apologetics is a kind of confrontation, an act of revealing one's true colours, of hoisting the flag, of demonstrating essential characteristics of faith. "Dialogue," as Hans Kung an eminent Catholic philosopher puts it, "does not mean self-denial."(quoted by Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics," Baha'i Studies Review, Vol.10, 2001/2) Schaefer goes on: "A faith that is opportunistically streamlined, adapting to current trends, thus concealing its real features, features that could provoke rejection in order to be acceptable for dialogue is in danger of losing its identity."
It is almost impossible to carry the torch of truth through a crowd without getting someone's beard singed. In the weeks that follow, my postings will probably wind up singing the beards of some readers and, perhaps, my own in the process. Such are the perils of dialogue, of apologetics. Much of Baha'i apologetics derives from the experience Baha'is have of a fundamental discrepancy between secular thought and the Baha'i revelation on the other. In some ways, the gulf is unbridgeable but, so too, is this the case between the secular and much thought in the Christian, Islamic and Jewish revelations or, for that matter, between variants of Christianity, Islam or the Jewish faith themselves. Secular thought is also a house with many divisions. That is why, or at least one of the reasons, I have chosen to make postings at this site. In addition, this site invites debate.
Anyway, that's all for now. It's back to the summer winds of Tasmania, about 3 kms from the Bass Straight on the Tamar River. The geography of place is so much simpler than that of the spiritual geography readers at this site are concerned with, although even physical geography has its complexities. Whom the gods would destroy they first make simple and simpler and simpler. I look forward to a contiued dialogue in the months ahead. Here in far-off Tasmania--the last stop before Antarctica, if one wants to get there through some other route than off the end of South America--your email will be gratefully received. -Ron Price, Tasmania.
_____________________________
End of story---for now!
In June 2006, the first thread that dealt with Baha'i apologetics came to an end. I became busy elsewhere in my life and other posters ceased to post on the thread. Having reread the thread a few minutes ago, I thought I would open this 2nd thread on "Baha'i Apologetics." Here is my first posting:
_________________________________
I want in this my first posting on this 2nd thread to finish, as best I can, outlining a basic orientation to Baha’i apologetics. Critical scholarly contributions or criticism raised in public or private discussions, an obvious part of apologetics, should not necessarily be equated with hostility. Often questions are perfectly legitimate aspects of a person's search for an answer to an intellectual conundrum. Paul Tillich, the great Protestant theologian, once expressed the view that apologetics was an "answering theology."(Systematic Theology, U. of Chicago, 1967, Vol.1, p6.)
I have always been attracted to the founder of the Baha'i Faith's exhortations in discussion to "speak with words as mild as milk," with "the utmost lenience and forbearance." I am also aware that, in cases of rude or hostile attack, rebuttal with a harsher tone may well be justified. It does not help an apologist to belong to those "watchmen" the prophet Isaiah calls "dumb dogs that cannot bark."(Isaiah, 56:10) Still, my personal preference is for mildness rather than overt and aggressive hostility in words or deeds. Of course, over a lifetime we all ere and stray in various ways.
In its essence apologetics is a kind of confrontation, an act of revealing one's true colours, of hoisting the flag, of demonstrating essential characteristics of faith. "Dialogue," as Hans Kung an eminent Catholic philosopher puts it, "does not mean self-denial."(quoted by Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics," Baha'i Studies Review, Vol.10, 2001/2) Schaefer goes on: "A faith that is opportunistically streamlined, adapting to current trends, thus concealing its real features, features that could provoke rejection in order to be acceptable for dialogue is in danger of losing its identity."
It is almost impossible to carry the torch of truth through a crowd without getting someone's beard singed. In the weeks that follow, my postings will probably wind up singing the beards of some readers and, perhaps, my own in the process. Such are the perils of dialogue, of apologetics. Much of Baha'i apologetics derives from the experience Baha'is have of a fundamental discrepancy between secular thought and the Baha'i revelation on the other. In some ways, the gulf is unbridgeable but, so too, is this the case between the secular and much thought in the Christian, Islamic and Jewish revelations or, for that matter, between variants of Christianity, Islam or the Jewish faith themselves. Secular thought is also a house with many divisions. That is why, or at least one of the reasons, I have chosen to make postings at this site. In addition, this site invites debate.
Anyway, that's all for now. It's back to the summer winds of Tasmania, about 3 kms from the Bass Straight on the Tamar River. The geography of place is so much simpler than that of the spiritual geography readers at this site are concerned with, although even physical geography has its complexities. Whom the gods would destroy they first make simple and simpler and simpler. I look forward to a contiued dialogue in the months ahead. Here in far-off Tasmania--the last stop before Antarctica, if one wants to get there through some other route than off the end of South America--your email will be gratefully received. -Ron Price, Tasmania.
_____________________________
End of story---for now!
Re: Baha'i Apologetics 2
I thought a prose-poetic piece might be in order to introduce this 2nd thread. And so here is a prose-poem I wrote which some may enjoy. It begins with a brief discussion of the film, Matrix, which some readers may have seen.
___________________________________
MATRIX
The film The Matrix was released in Australia the very week I taught my last classes as a full-time professional teacher, April 8th 1999. I had been teaching for thirty years. I won't summarize the details of the plot and all the characters. But some of the theme is as follows: a fundamental discovery is made about the world that it doesn't exist. It's actually a form of Virtual Reality designed to lull people into lives of blind obedience to the system. People obediently go to their jobs every day without knowing that Matrix is the wool that has been pulled over their eyes. The reality of life is that people are slaves. The rebels want to crack the framework that holds this Matrix in place thus freeing humankind. Some believe a messianic One will lead a social uprising; this messianic One will possess both mind power and physical strength. -Ron Price, Pioneering Over Four Epochs, 4 November 2006 with thanks to Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times, March 31st 1999.
The world has been in a great sleep
from which it is slowly waking
thanks to that messianic One
and the uprising has begun
silently, unobtrusively, for
the revolution is global and
out of man's control--it is also
spiritual--having begun within
the Shaykhi school of the Ithna-
Ashariyyih sect of Shiah Islam.
But don't tell anyone--it's the
best kept secret-non-secret in
the world and it is slowly rising
from the obscurity in which it
has been shrouded for 160 years.
Ron Price
4 November 2006
____________________
Enough for now!
I thought a prose-poetic piece might be in order to introduce this 2nd thread. And so here is a prose-poem I wrote which some may enjoy. It begins with a brief discussion of the film, Matrix, which some readers may have seen.
___________________________________
MATRIX
The film The Matrix was released in Australia the very week I taught my last classes as a full-time professional teacher, April 8th 1999. I had been teaching for thirty years. I won't summarize the details of the plot and all the characters. But some of the theme is as follows: a fundamental discovery is made about the world that it doesn't exist. It's actually a form of Virtual Reality designed to lull people into lives of blind obedience to the system. People obediently go to their jobs every day without knowing that Matrix is the wool that has been pulled over their eyes. The reality of life is that people are slaves. The rebels want to crack the framework that holds this Matrix in place thus freeing humankind. Some believe a messianic One will lead a social uprising; this messianic One will possess both mind power and physical strength. -Ron Price, Pioneering Over Four Epochs, 4 November 2006 with thanks to Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times, March 31st 1999.
The world has been in a great sleep
from which it is slowly waking
thanks to that messianic One
and the uprising has begun
silently, unobtrusively, for
the revolution is global and
out of man's control--it is also
spiritual--having begun within
the Shaykhi school of the Ithna-
Ashariyyih sect of Shiah Islam.
But don't tell anyone--it's the
best kept secret-non-secret in
the world and it is slowly rising
from the obscurity in which it
has been shrouded for 160 years.
Ron Price
4 November 2006
____________________
Enough for now!
Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
Tu kaun hai paiiii?
- Messages
- 7,218
- Reaction score
- 920
- Gender
- Female
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Baha'i Apologetics 2
Wow you write well but I'm confused as to what your trying to say :X
well welcome to forum anyway
Wow you write well but I'm confused as to what your trying to say :X
well welcome to forum anyway