ban on men in lingerie shops

[Darth Ultor]

Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working.

 

[ابن آل مرة]

Again, people lets not criticise knowledgable islamic scholars based on some non-islamic news reports findings.

To call those scholars puppets, just because 'BB freaking C' down talked them? I will only believe what the saudi scholars have to say on this matter if they personally said it to me, or if it came from a trusted islamic source. Other than said, allahu a3lm.

Jazak Allahu khayran. Agreed akhi, at same time let's not forget that there ARE puppet scholars in Saudi. Everyone knows the treachery of the Madaakhila.

As for men selling these things, I don't know how any husband would tolerate a random person selling this kind of stuff to their wives. Best option is online. Next best, is women salesman completely covered, with maximum privacy.

The old women driving issue..let me just say it is an issue. I believe the scholars are doing what they think it's best for women of this Ummah, so yes I am against women driving.

*Wears the ignore feminist shield*

 

[Jedi_Mindset]

Wow Masha'Allah Sis Zaria you just have said what i wanted to say

 

[Darth Ultor]

They have to be completely covered in Saudi Arabia. It's the law

 

[Darth Ultor]

The old women driving issue..let me just say it is an issue. I believe the scholars are doing what they think it's best for women of this Ummah, so yes I am against women driving.

*Wears the ignore feminist shield*

What is masculine about driving a car? Men cause accidents too. Heck, look at a country like the US. Most drunk drivers are men. I'd feel just as safe with a woman on the road at night as I would with a man. Women should be the ones selling women's clothing. Think what could happen. Impure thoughts for male salesmen and possible victimizing of women.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I have to be completely covered in Saudi Arabia. It's the law

And the law they are enforcing is in harmony with the Islamic law: the command to observe the veil. It's not oppression over there nor is it oppression for every other Muslim woman who understands the Islamic Law and observers the veil willingly.

Oppression is in France, forcing Muslim women to take off their veils because they don't like it, as well as in Denmark and other EU countries.

 

[Darth Ultor]

Oops. I mean "they". Sorry, I was half asleep

 

[~Zaria~]

The old women driving issue..let me just say it is an issue. I believe the scholars are doing what they think it's best for women of this Ummah, so yes I am against women driving.

*Wears the ignore feminist shield*

Wa-alaikumosalam brother,

With regards to the Saudi ruling on women driving (yes - I'll call it a 'Saudi ruling' because thats what it is.....) - I would have no problem with it, if I could find some evidence from Quraan and Sunaah that prohibited women driving.

In fact, its pretty absurd to be:

- Firstly making haraam, that which, for all intents and purposes is halaal (taking into account the distance limitations of travel without a mahram).

- and in doing so - enabling even more Haraam to occur!

How does it suddenly become permissible for a woman to be alone in the car with a non-mahram driver?
Is not the 3rd party in that car - Shaytaan?

It truly goes beyond logic, in my opinion.......


Im not wishing to side-track this thread into another discussion......but if anyone can provide some sort of evidence for the driving laws in Saudi - i would love to hear them.
(or insha Allah direct me to a place where we can read more on this )



Ps. bro Ahmed M - you can remove your 'ignore feminist shield' now......that wasnt so bad now, was it? lol

Salaam

 

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext: sis Zaria

The ruling on the driving ban was by Shaykh Ibn Baaz rahimullah. I've posted his ruling previously somewhere on the forum, I'll find it and paste it here.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?

You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!


btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!

Urgh I hate this forum so much!

 

[ابن آل مرة]

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
People have spoken a great deal in the al-Jazeerah newspaper about the issue of women driving cars. It is well known that it leads to evil consequences which are well known to those who promote it, such as being alone with a non-mahram woman, unveiling, reckless mixing with men, and committing haraam actions because of which these things were forbidden. Islam forbids the things that lead to haraam and regards them as being haraam too.
Allaah commanded the wives of the Prophet and the believing women to stay in their houses, to observe hijab and to avoid showing their adornments to non-mahrams because of the permissiveness that all these things lead to, which spells doom for society. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salaah (Iqamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet), and to purify you with a thorough purification”
[al-Ahzaab 33:33]
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed”
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]
“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful”
[al-Noor 24:31]
And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man is alone with a (non-mahram) woman but the Shaytaan is the third one present.”
Islam forbids all the things that may lead to immorality or accusations of immoral conduct made against chaste women, who never even think of anything touching their chastity, and it has stipulated a punishment for that which is one of the most severe of punishments, in order to protect society from the spread of the causes of immorality.
Women driving is one of the means that lead to that, and this is something obvious, but ignorance of the rulings of sharee’ah and the negative consequences of carelessness with regard to the things that lead to evil – as well as diseases of the heart that prevail at present – and love of permissiveness and enjoying looking at non-mahram women all lead to indulging in this and similar things, with no knowledge and paying no attention to the dangers that it leads to. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): (But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are Al-Fawaahish (great evil sins and every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse) whether committed openly or secretly, sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship) with Allaah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allaah of which you have no knowledge”
[al-A’raaf 7:33]
“and follow not the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan). Verily, he is to you an open enemy”
[al-Baqarah 2:168]
And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I am not leaving behind me any fitnah more harmful to men than women.”
It was narrated that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The people used to ask the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about good things, but I used to ask him about bad things, fearing that I would live to see such things. I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, we were in a state of ignorance (jaahiliyyah) and evil, then Allaah sent us this good (i.e., Islam). Will there be any evil after this good?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Will there by any good after that evil?’ He said, ‘Yes, but it will be tainted.’ I said, ‘How will it be tainted?’ He said, ‘(There will be) some people who will guide others in a way that is not according to my guidance. You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of others.’ I said, ‘Will there be any evil after that good?’ He said, ‘Yes, there will be people calling at the gates of Hell, and whoever responds to their call, they will throw them into it (the Fire).’ I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, describe them to us.’ He said, ‘They will be from among our people, speaking our language.’ I said, ‘What do you command me to do if I live to see such a thing?’ He said, ‘Adhere to the jamaa’ah (group, community) of the Muslims and their imaam (leader).’ I asked, ‘What if there is no jamaa’ah and no leader?’ He said, ‘Then keep away from all those groups, even if you have to bite (eat) the roots of a tree until death overtakes you whilst you are in that state.’” Agreed upon.
I call upon every Muslim to fear Allaah in all that he says and does and to beware of fitnah and those who promote it. He should keep away from all that angers Allaah or leads to His wrath, and he should be extremely cautious lest he be one of these callers to Hell of whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) tells us in this hadeeth.
May Allaah protect us from the evil of fitnah and its people, and protect this ummah from the evil of those who promote bad things. May He help the writers of our newspapers and all the Muslims to do that which pleases Him and may He set the Muslims straight and save them in this world and in the Hereafter, for He is Able to do that.
Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 3/351-353.​

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen was asked: I hope you can explain the ruling on women driving cars. And what is your opinion on the idea that women driving cars is less dangerous than their riding with non-mahram drivers?
The answer to this question is based on two principles which are well known among the Muslim scholars:
The first principle is: that whatever leads to haraam is itself haraam. The evidence for this is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge”
[al-An’aam 6:108]
So Allaah forbids insulting the gods of the mushrikeen – even though that serves an interest – because it leads to insults against Allaah.
The second principle is: that warding off evil – if it is equal to or greater than the interests concerned – takes precedence over bringing benefits. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit”
[al-Baqarah 2:219]
Allaah has forbidden alcohol and gambling even though there is some benefit in them, so as to ward off the evils that result from them.
Based on these two principles, the ruling on women driving should be clear, because women driving includes a number of evils, including the following:
1 – Removal of hijab, because driving a car involves uncovering the face which is the site of fitnah and attracts the glance of men. A woman is only regarded as beautiful or ugly on the basis of her face, i.e., if it is said that she is beautiful or ugly, people only think in terms of her face. If something else is meant it must be specified, so that one would say that she has beautiful hands or beautiful hair or beautiful feet. Hence it is known that the face is the focal point. If someone were to say that a woman can drive a car without taking off her hijab, by covering her face and wearing dark glasses over her eyes, the answer to that is that this is not what really happens when women drive cars. Ask those who have seen them in other countries. Even if we assume that this could be applied initially, it would not last for long, rather the situation would soon become as it is in other countries where women drive. This is how things usually develop; they start out in an acceptable fashion then they get worse.
2 – Another evil consequence of women driving cars is that they lose their modesty, and modesty is part of faith as is narrated in a saheeh report from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Modesty is the noble characteristic that befits the nature of women and protects them from being exposed to fitnah. Hence it is mentioned in a metaphorical sense (in Arabic), in the phrase “more modest than a virgin in her seclusion.” Once a woman’s modesty is lost, do not ask about her.
3 – It also leads to women going out of the house a great deal, but their homes are better for them – as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said – because those who love to drive enjoy it very much, hence you see them driving around in their cars here and there for no purpose, except to enjoy driving.
4 – You may find a divorced woman going where she wants, whenever she wants and however she wants, for whatever purpose she wants, because she is alone in her car, at any time she wants of the day or night. She may stay out until late at night. If people are complaining about this with regard to young men, then what about young women, going all over the place the length and breadth of the country, and maybe even beyond its borders.
5 – It is a means of women rebelling against their families and husbands; at the least provocation they may go out of the house and drive in the car to wherever they think they can get some peace, as happens in the case of some young men, who are able to put up with more than women.
6 – It is a cause of fitnah in many places: when stopping at the traffic lights, or at gas stations, or at inspection points, or when stopped by policemen at the scenes of traffic infractions or accidents, or if the car stalls and the woman needs help. What will her situation be in this case? Perhaps she may come across an immoral man who takes advantage of her in return for helping her, especially if her need is great to the point of urgency.
7 – When women drive it leads to overcrowding in the streets, or it deprives some young men of the opportunity to drive cars when they are more deserving of that.
8 – It causes fitnah to flourish because women – by their nature – like to make themselves look good with clothing etc. Do you not see how attached they are to fashion? Every time a new fashion appears they throw away what they have and rush to buy the new things, even if it is worse than what they have. Do you not see the adornments that they hang on their walls? In the same way – or perhaps more so – with the cars that they drive, whenever a new model appears they will give up the first for the new one.
With regard to the questioner asking, “And what is your opinion on the idea that women driving cars is less dangerous than their riding with non-mahram drivers?” – what I think is that both of them involve danger, and one is more serious than the other in some ways, but there is no necessity that would require one to do either of them.
Please note that I have answered this question at length because of the controversy that surrounds the issue of women driving cars, and the pressure faced by conservative Saudi society, which is striving to adhere to its religious commitment and morals, to allow women to drive cars.
This would be nothing strange if it were to come from an enemy who seeks to cause harm this land which is the last bastion of Islam that the enemies of Islam wish to penetrate. But what is even stranger is that this is coming from our own people who speak our language and live under our banner, people who are dazzled by what the kaafir nations have of material advancement and admire their ways which are devoid of any moral restrictions.
End quote from Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen.

رحمهم الله
​

Nuff said. Now if you do not live in Saudi, and you are a woman, stop complaining.

 

[syilla]

lol ukhti relax..this is only a forum lets respect others opinion and fatwas. InshaAllah probably next time it'll be another perspective.

 

[IslamicRevival]

The Scholars who currently pull the strings in Saudi Arabia, in my opinion are not to be relied upon. Personally, Ive never followed them and nor will i ever in a million years take their 'Fatwa's' seriously.

Truth is, The ROOTS of 'Saudi' Arabia are corrupt and only Allah knows what strings they are pulling behind the scenes.

 

[CosmicPathos]

No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?

You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!


btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!

Urgh I hate this forum so much!

The proof was given from Quran where Allah says to wives of Prophet to stay at home. What more proof you want?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

The proof was given from Quran where Allah says to wives of Prophet to stay at home. What more proof you want?

Well, that would include so called women working in medicine and education. Or wait, it that necessity? What is necessity? Is there any proof from Sunnah or Quran that that define what necessity is? And necessity for whom? for society or her own well being?

Like I said there issnt anything banned a woman from owning her own business for example IF that does not affect her responsibilities to her own family! She just happens to take on more responsibilities!

 

[CosmicPathos]

yes, you are right about the exceptions being made for women to work in certain fields. Why are ppl including women in medicine. I dont buy the argument "its in their nature." Till 50 years ago, men were doing medicine as efficiently as it is done today. I say ban em all! (sarcasm on banning)

There are 80% females in my class and 20% males. Is it because more females are applying? Or is it because feminist establishment gives preference to females in post-modern world? My school writes she before he as in she/he. I still continue to write he/she. Come and burn me on stake!

 

[syilla]

subhnallah i think there is already a thread on working woman. i think it is not our place to make fatwa for every woman in this world. all the muftis and the scholars from all over the world need to have meetings and discussion to come for a conclusion. i think this thread can be closed now.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?

You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!


btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!

Urgh I hate this forum so much!

No one is arguing that women cannot and should not work. No one ever argued that women are no good in work places. And finally no one is critical of a woman's capabilities at work whether it's to do with knowledge, skill, capacity or ability!

The point here is where men and women should work and how best to follow the Islamic etiquette, seeing as men and women are not equal but we are even. We worship Allah the same but women are excused during menses, men give the dowry for marriage whereas women never do this. Certain things are specifically singled out for men and vice versa, hence we are not equal but we are even.

No one will Islamically forbid women outright from working as bulky, masculine builders, cut throat judges (judge Judy?) and to serve in the front lines for military because for those women who have no other option but to choose these occupations will be left for dead! "Men understand" (an oxymoron, eh?) that they need an income. The rulings that the scholars give are specific to those women who have an option to choose their field of work. But for those who prefer otherwise then the accountability is on your own head.

In case you don't like the rulings issued by the male inheritors of the Prophet's, seek advice from a female scholar and she'll tell you the same.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I know couple of women who went aboard to Saudi Arabia to be physiotherapists and occupational therapists. And guess what? They are not even Muslims! It is the same with a lot of Arab countries.

One of them wanted to do research there, but she wasn’t allowed to speak to the men. But she was confused because those same men allowed her to touch their legs during treatment!

I am not advocating mixing unless it is necessary! Just a fair society where women can run women swimming pool for example and men can run men swimming pool, women can run women clothing shops and men can run their own clothing shops! Etc etc

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

No one is arguing that women cannot and should not work. No one ever argued that women are no good in work places. And finally no one is critical of a woman's capabilities at work whether it's to do with knowledge, skill, capacity or ability!

The point here is where men and women should work and how best to follow the Islamic etiquette, seeing as men and women are not equal but we are even. We worship Allah the same but women are excused during menses, men give the dowry for marriage whereas women never do this. Certain things are specifically singled out for men and vice versa, hence we are not equal but we are even.

No one will Islamically forbid women outright from working as bulky, masculine builders, cut throat judges (judge Judy?) and to serve in the front lines for military because for those women who have no other option but to choose these occupations will be left for dead! "Men understand" (an oxymoron, eh?) that they need an income. The rulings that the scholars give are specific to those women who have an option to choose their field of work. But for those who prefer otherwise then the accountability is on your own head.

In case you don't like the rulings issued by the male inheritors of the Prophet's, seek advice from a female scholar and she'll tell you the same.

My point is women are already banned to have certain jobs like military, judges and leader of a country in Islam! BUT they are not banned to becoming scientists, business women, cleaners or any other job outside Education and Medicine! Why dont you ask a scholar whether a woman can become a Scientists or cleaner?