Being an atheist.

[SixTen]

Do subatomic particles come into/out of existence? I don't know much about them though I would doubt it.

Second part: It's one way to escape this question. Why is it illogical?

Yes, it is widely believed that they do. Just go read upon a bit of quantum mechanics. Though the critics state we just don't know the cause, rather than their being none (Atheists tend to hold the latter belief).

It is illogical because, (I hope you are well with physics) all the laws you know and how everything is, was all programmed during the big bang. In the end, everything you see in this universe is limited qualitativly aswell as quantitativly. Outside the universe, you cannot make any factual statements of its nature in anyway. The metaphysical realm (that is, what we would deem outside this universe), does not follow the universe in any way form shape manner. Logic, is defined by laws, where these laws do not exist, how can we transfer the logic in this universe to a metaphysical realm? It is why it is illogical.

 

[Tornado]

Yes, it is widely believed that they do. Just go read upon a bit of quantum mechanics. Though the critics state we just don't know the cause, rather than their being none (Atheists tend to hold the latter belief).

It is illogical because, (I hope you are well with physics) all the laws you know and how everything is, was all programmed during the big bang. In the end, everything you see in this universe is limited qualitativly aswell as quantitativly. Outside the universe, you cannot make any factual statements of its nature in anyway. The metaphysical realm (that is, what we would deem outside this universe), does not follow the universe in any way form shape manner. Logic, is defined by laws, where these laws do not exist, how can we transfer the logic in this universe to a metaphysical realm? It is why it is illogical.

I don't want to attempt to explain something which I have little knowledge of so I don't know how valid a parallel between subatomic particle and a god is. So our logic is tied to this universe? This is sounding like a way of avoiding questions.

 

[Trumble]

Lonelier in times of hardships. At those instance, you don't have someone ultimate to turn to. I agree with the rest.

An odd position for an atheist. Surely that is only the case if that 'someone ultimate' actually exists? Otherwise any comfort can only be an illusion, a placebo (or at best a painkiller), and ultimate disappointment, pain and despair are inevitable. Far worse than just accepting the reality and moving on, I think.

 

[------]

i shall sum up your post in two words:

atheism sucks

:salamext:

SNAP!

 

[north_malaysian]

I have one question..

let say an atheist is on vacation in Phuket, he's sunbathing on the beach and suddenly a powerful tsunami comes and push him and he has nothing to grab and no body would ever help him....

what would an atheist be thinking during that time?

 

[MunirAhmadKamil]

Hey Tornado...many of my atheist friends say that they are what they are is because they say there is lack of signs of existence of god. Is this what you hold on to?

If you dont mind me asking...in space..our earth hardly gets hit with meteors..where as the moon, which is very closely positioned to us is full of craters. Dont you think its not just by pure luck earth is somehow protected for a very long time? Mars is full of craters too.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.

How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him
[Qur'an 2:28]

If you have any questions about being an atheist, just ask.

Life must get pretty lonely knowing that you will never see the people you love. In the Qur'an Allah talks a lot about the human heart because the heart is the source of all your emotions and it is where one truly feels sadness and happiness. So Allah says about this:

“Those who believe and whose hearts find tranquility in the Remembrance of Allaah, verily in the Remembrance of Allaah do hearts find tranquility.” [Surah Ar-Radd: 28]

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

seriously, i sometimes think why do atheists come on islamic forums, if they believer that there is no God, they waste the only chance of lifetime they have on a BORING ISLAMIC FORUM!! how sad seriously...

We think very differently - correct?

I don't know if you've noticed, but currently the world tends to divide itself into different groups who think very differently from one another. In fact, some people are prepared to kill others because they think very differently. I view this as a tragic state of affairs.

The problem is not that these groups of people are simply destined to hate each other forever, it's that they don't understand where the other is coming from. If they started to try and understand each other better, there is a good chance that they would get on better, without the need for hatred and killing.

Incidentally, I'm sorry to hear that you think this forum is boring. I think it's a vital channel of communication between Muslims and any others who want to be here, and long may it continue.

Peace

 

[Pygoscelis]

Tornado, I'm just guessing here, but I'm getting the impression that you are a recent apostate. Am I correct?

The road away from religion can be a rough one, especially if your family, friends, and community is still wrapped up in it. My experience with many apostate friends, and my studies as well (Read Amazing Conversions by Altmeyer and Hunsberger, great read) have shown that this discomfort, loneliness, and angst passes as time goes by. Its really not suprising that apostates go through it when they realize that they have been programmed from birth to believe in a fantasy and that this fantasy still pervades all aspects of life around you.

Learning to live without the crutch of religion takes a while, but most of us DO get there and in the end we live much fuller lives, appreciating life for what it really is. Its the only life we get, rather than a testing ground or wating area for something else. Live it. Love it.

Imagine someone very close to you passes away, you realize, there is no one really turn to so you can only end up sulking, knowing you will never see them again.

True. Atheists have to learn to mourn. This is actually a very important thing to develop. Too often theists don't mourn and don't let go. They instead live in denial, and pretend that their loved one is "in a better place now". Learning to accept loss and move on is character development.

There is no special meaning to life except to have kids. We are on a lonely planet along with the seven planets in our solar system that revolve around our sun, just one star among the 200+ billion stars in just our galaxy, just one galaxy amongst hundreds of billions of galaxies in our visible universe.

The meaning of life is to give life meaning. If your life lacks meaning, you haven't given it any. I am an atheist and my life is full of meaning. If you are a recent apostate perhaps you have not given much thought to the meaning in your life, aside from the ingroup identity you'd have had as a believer.

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.

It didn't need a creator. That isn't irrational. If complexity and beauty requires creation then God is the most in need of a creator. An ancient philosopher whose name I forget said "The world is perched on the back of a giant turtle". When asked what that turtle is standing on he replied "Another turtle, its turtles all the way down". In other words saying all this needs a creator only moves the question of our existence back a step.

So if anyone is unsure whether to convert or not to atheism, consider that things become lonelier.

Atheists are more out of the closet than in the past, but we are still pretty rare, and apostates even rarer, so you may also be feeling isolated. I can assure you that I have known many apostates (from many religions) and this loneliness you are feeling did not last for them. I would suggest you speak with such people. Private message me if you would like me to send you some resource links that may help you find such a community of apostates who have gone through what you are going through.

 

[Pygoscelis]

An atheist I know gets quite upset at the suggestion that atheists have 'no spirituality' ...

Glo, I find this interesting. Because I myself reached this stage on my own journey only a few years back. It depends on what you mean by "spiritual", but I do believe I may very well be that. You do not have to believe in the supernatural to see benefit in yoga or meditation. And you do not have to believe in the supernatural to feel a connectedness with and awe of nature.

And though I realize it is all psychological, that doesn't make "psychic energies" any less real or potent. A mood (good or bad) can spread through a room like a virus.

 

[Pygoscelis]

i'm really surprised in a way that athiests still carry on with life, ( yet again that is the mercy of God that He bestows upon them yet they are in denial about His existance) no offence but if i was an athiest (God forbid) i'd committed suicide a very long time ago!!!!!!!

If this is true, then I dearly hope you never lose your faith. Though I strongly suspect that if you lost your faith you would learn to appreciate life in a whole new way.

let say an atheist is on vacation in Phuket, he's sunbathing on the beach and suddenly a powerful tsunami comes and push him and he has nothing to grab and no body would ever help him....

what would an atheist be thinking during that time?

Other than survival, probably about his family. He may grow desparate and irrational and grasp at straws, like gods or psychic powers or what have you, but the old tired phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" is actually very untrue. There are military organizations of atheists (who actually have been in said "foxholes") who prove that.

If you dont mind me asking...in space..our earth hardly gets hit with meteors..where as the moon, which is very closely positioned to us is full of craters. Dont you think its not just by pure luck earth is somehow protected for a very long time? Mars is full of craters too.

I see this question from theists pretty regularly. The jist of it is that the random existence of a world so perfect as to support human life is extremely unlikely. Change just one small constant about the universe and we could not exist. Yet we would not be here asking the question were it not so. The problem with the theist logic is that it looks at everything with hindsight. It is also extremely unlikely that any specific person would win the lottery, yet some of them do. The universe is massive, almost all of it is hostile to human life. Only where life could exist could beings be pondering at how perfectly suited for life the place is.

The earth was not made for humans. Humans were made for (and by) the earth.

That mockery comes after they make a mockery of our religion, which is not tolerated.

When people declare eternal torture appropriate for all who don't share in their delusions, it should not suprise anyone that they are mocked, and feared.

 

[Tornado]

*yawn* ur so not funny,

Taking the mick

seriously, i sometimes think why do atheists come on islamic forums, if they believer that there is no God, they waste the only chance of lifetime they have on a BORING ISLAMIC FORUM!! how sad seriously...

I don't think it's boring since there are intresting discussion going on all the time. It's not a waste because I want to be sure the choices I've made make sense and see how they stand to criticism.

Pygoscelis, thanks for your posts.

 

[SixTen]

I don't want to attempt to explain something which I have little knowledge of so I don't know how valid a parallel between subatomic particle and a god is. So our logic is tied to this universe? This is sounding like a way of avoiding questions.

I mean fair enough you are not understanding what I am saying - but it isn't fair to accuse me of avoiding a question - when you are doubting real physics. Sorry but logic is tied to this universe, that is a fact. You can't appy the logic you have in this universe to something that does not exist in this universe.

 

[TrueStranger]

I'm guessing you think everything needs a creator, thoughts, watches, almost everything, except a god. Remember, god would be the best designed entity to exist, and who designed that, you say no one. I guess I don't find that convincing. As I said, even if god was a prime mover, I'd be a deist.

Tornado

Who said anything about God being designed or created.

I notice that you like to compare yourself and the material items which you perceive in life with God. That is the first mistake. Just for a mere second you have to step back and comprehend the notion that you can’t compare yourself and that which is created by the Creator.

You don’t want to acknowledge the fact that you have being created by God, while you want to believe that god was created?

Quick question,

Let’s assume that god was created, and then god created you, then will you worship god?

My friend we could go in circles, belief doesn’t come from the mind it comes from the heart. I could entertain a thought, and ask millions of questions which all start with how and why, but in reality those questions are more likely to deceive you than to guide you. I won’t say atheists or atheism sucks, I have no right to insult you, but stop with the questions for once and try to comprehend all that surrounds you. But at the end of the day you could be whatever you want to be. And not a single word i say would change your mind, I am not the one which guidance.

But in all honesty, I wish you to take the righteous path, the path which is your sole purpose, and the path which will bring you true inner peace.


Peace.

 

[Chuck]

I googed francis collins and its not him :<..

You are talking about Antony Flew?

 

[Trumble]

Tornado

Who said anything about God being designed or created.

SixTen did, if you look back a few posts.

That who created God is something very strange that I hear from certain atheists - for 1 reason only. The creation of God is seen as the cause of God, yet atheists state (alot) that subatomic particles come into and out of existance without a cause yet they are dumbfounded when the same is stated for God.

As so often when a theist attempt to describe atheistic views you end up with a strawman. Atheists are "dumbfounded" at nothing of the sort.
No atheist sees the creation of God as the cause of God. To an atheist God HAS no cause as God does not exist.

The point is that theists insist everything else must have a cause while God does not, while providing no satisfactory answer as to why God should be an exception (and before anybody bothers, I've seen them all). The point then arises that if the most complicated entity of all, God, is not created (and hence, by definition, does not require a creator) then why are theists "dumbfounded" at the suggestion that a 'creator' is not required for everything else?

The whole theist argument stands on the assumption that God is somehow different in that respect. That assumption is based solely on the words "because He is". God is what He is defined to be.

 

[north_malaysian]

Other than survival, probably about his family. He may grow desparate and irrational and grasp at straws, like gods or psychic powers or what have you

ok...thanks for the answer

"there are no atheists in foxholes"

can you explain this?

 

[suffiyan007]

Rejecting faith some their mentality quite extreme...! cause deny God does not exist...! God is a watcher all over the universe...the earth,planets,heaven,and Hell....!why Alien Exist...other than Human cause Creation of the earth and heaven...a Creator.!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Did Suffiyan007 just suggest that Aliens are God?

If so, its not a unique hypthesis and and interesting one. The idea that we are a group of interstellar colonists who lost contact with home as well as our advanced technology in some massive disaster. Imagine we come into contact with aliens only to realize they are our cousins.

 

[Ebrahim]

I must agree that attempting to apply a logic system acquired from this world to a different one should not be expected to end successfully. It may look like it's an excuse to avoid a question... but I think avoiding a question for a legitimate reason is better than trying to answer it based on flawed reasoning.

I myself have spent a lot of time on the line between Islam and agnosticism. I know that if God existed and any religion at all were true, it would be Islam- but I have never been 100% sure of any religion.

We human beings often overlook our own limits in an air of unintentional arrogance. I am guilty of it myself all the time, and I would like to point it out here in this discussion. Here is one way I like to explain it. If you were to live in a room with a monkey for a million years, given only the task of teach that monkey calculus, would you be able to do it? The answer is obviously no, but the real point comes in asking why not. Why not? Well the monkey not only doesn't care to learn calculus, it cannot comprehend calculus. Calcilus is at a level of thinking that is beyond the monkey's perception.

Not only is the monkey unable to ever learn calculus, it actually doesn't know where its limit is. It doesn't sit there thinking, "Man I wish I could do calculus like that awesome human." It probably just wants a banana.

Now with humans, it is likely the same deal. We have a limit somewhere, and we know that. But we don't know WHERE it is! And we don't know how much knowledge and understanding lies hidden beyond the limits of the mere 5 senses we use to formulate our meager interpretation of the universe.

Okay sorry if that analogy went a little too far, it may not have made any sense. But what I mean to say is basically that human logic and reasoning just isn't all it's cracked up to be. Because the reality is that we cannot know where the limit to our perception lies, and thus we can only apply our learned system of reasoning to matters of this world in which we learned it. There must be a lot more to everything else than we can even imagine.

That "everything else" is referred to in arabic as the "ghayb." Ghayb is that which we not only do not know, but cannot know or perceive with our limitations as human beings.

I am still not 100% sure of any religion, though I like to call myself muslim and I am most of the time (I know it's a weird situation). But I do know that I believe in ghayb, and I think even atheists should at least accept its possible existence. Going around rejecting everything based on the all-high super-awesome "human reason" will never get us far.