Being Gay

[aamirsaab]

There is a large amount of psychology involved in Gay relationships. So i'd advise you, unless of course your knowledge on this specific topic is higher than mine, to not continue this rant. We dislike the behaviour and it is condemned by Allah - that point has been made bout 100 times already on this thread (before the latest merge).

So, unless you know someone, personally, who is gay - and thus have an understanding as to why it has happened, do not slander them. We are humans and should accept difference, even if it is something as "strange" as this.

Not every gay person is the same, although the reasons for that behaviour are pretty similar - though this can vary considerably. Take A2 Psychology if you are really interested in this topic.

 

[Takumi]

Yes but what they do is not forced upon them they do it coz they choose to do it. There was this incident in the ISAMLIC HISTORY that there were lots of GAY on this one Island that was raised upto the 7th heaven and then slammed down by Allah. Because it was wrong.

If they are asking for help then i reckon they would have stopped or else they are lying.

Of course, they know exactly why they do it.

If you have tried ALL YOUR BEST to tell them that this is wrong, then why do you bother?

I don't see any scholars going to the publishers of magazines that promote gay lifestyle and advice them. If you know of such thing, I'd like to know who they are and send them a card to say, you're actually doing what the prophets are doing. Giving advice.

Nor do I see anyone of us currrently active in learning basic sexuality, its effects and how to deal with it. Nor do I sense that we read about it enough to actually form an informed opinion.

Granted, practicing sexual relations with the same gender is decreed HARAAM. We all know that.

So do drinking alcohol and taking drugs.

But we have Alcohol Anonymous and Drug Rehabilitation Centers to help people to get out of these HARAAM acts. Or should we just say that to their face ITS HARAAM! and let them wear a scarlet letter?

Do muslim communities have such organizations? I'm afraid not, because as soon someone is identified as being gay, even though he/she doesn't even practice it, the first words will be, IT'S HARAAM AND YOU'LL BE IN THE HELL FIRE.

I guess, it's too hard to say, "We can help you deal with this. We are here to help you obey Allah. We know you can't help it and we cannot say we understand how it feels, but we'd like to try to help you overcome this test. Come with us and we assure your safety and we will guide you through it"

That should be the difference. While the public is divided into two extremes. One chastising gays and the other is trying very hard to help those who are gay to identify with themselves and telling them "it's okay to be gay, we'll help you feel comfortable of being one", Muslims must take our stand.

"We don't condone it, yes, but we will help you overcome it"

What have YOU done?

 

[bluff master]

Try to tell them wots right and wrong?

 

[Sis_ReNa]

Their is a simple psychological explanation for why people turn gay. They are unable to interact as much as they would like with members of their own sex and so "try" to be someone else (i.e fom opposite sex) in order to fit in. Thus, although their appearance isn't changed, their thought process is and so they act like members of opposite sex.QUOTE]

 

[Syed Hussain]

asw
treat them normally but at the same time give dawah to them and make them understand this is nonsence.
ASW

 

[Khadeejah]

Asalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baraakatu,
Homosexuality is haram that point has been made time and time again....But as muslims we should watch what we say and how we say it as we may offend people and not know.....There are converts and even born muslims who have feelings for the same sex. But does that mean that they acton it no. I have noticed that muslims are becomming quick to judge and SubhanALlah we do not like to be judged we do not like to be call terrorist and Osama Bin Laden so why are we so quick to put another down? regardless to what we are creations of Allah...and we should respect people for the sake of Allah and because we are his creation...People who consider themself gay. Lesbian, Bisexual, queer or what ever it is that they want to be called are human....they have feelings as well. Allah swt continues to give them life for a reason....If you brothers and sisters do not know a gay person how can you judge them??????? understand them before u make a judgement. No one likes to be disrespected. it is not only muslims that deserve respect and we should understand that although they lead a life that we may agree with.....we should still be civil

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Since most people are either just posting here to say "Ewwwwwwww!!!!!" or posting various tales they've heard about gays, I think it's time to put this thread to rest. Please read earlier in the thread for a more detailed evidence-based discussion on the topic.

Hopefully we can move on to more beneficial topics.



:threadclo

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

My views on him are more readily understood by reference to his support for the execution of homosexuals and apostates, along with some of his other 'tolerant' views.

I don't think you will find any orthodox Muslims differing on the issues you've mentioned. I just think you've cited them out of context. Islam doesn't punish people with homosexual inclinations, but the unrepentant people who commit homosexual acts despite being advised against it. We've already discussed this before here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/3676-being-gay.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-counselling/12428-giving-dawah-homosexuals.html

As for Apostasy, it is likewise explained in context here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4738-islam-apostasy.html

The Muslim man is allowed to show the tolerance of Islam by allowing his non-Muslim wife to practise her religion, but this display of tolerance is forbidden to the Muslim woman, who is assumed to be too weak to take up the running of the household, and is therefore barred from marrying a non-Muslim.

Actually, from the Islamic perspective, the Muslim woman has a number of financial rights from the husband, which may not be respected by a Non-muslim spouse. The same problem does not exist with a Muslim male marrying a Non-muslim. I know a number of families where a Muslim woman has married a Non-Muslim man (either out of ignorance of the ruling or lack of concern for it) and the result has always been negative, and the children lose their religion completely. On the other hand, there is a significant number of women who have converted to Islam after marrying Muslim husbands, and they take an active part in the community and raising their children in a proper manner.

Regards

 

[czgibson]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

Greetings Ansar,

I don't think you will find any orthodox Muslims differing on the issues you've mentioned. I just think you've cited them out of context. Islam doesn't punish people with homosexual inclinations, but the unrepentant people who commit homosexual acts despite being advised against it. We've already discussed this before here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/3676-being-gay.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-counselling/12428-giving-dawah-homosexuals.html

I didn't realise that orthodox Muslims supported the killing of homosexuals - that's news to me.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

I didn't realise that orthodox Muslims supported the killing of homosexuals - that's news to me.

If you want to misquote and rephrase what I said and take it out of context, that's up to you. If a Muslim went and killed a homosexual it would be murder and that Muslim would be punished. I already said Islam doesn't punish people with homosexual inclinations, they are simply advised in the same manner that the Shaykh has done here:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=631&main_cat_id=33
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=27176&dgn=4
Why didn't the Shaykh ask the man to submit himself for execution, if Muslims are supposed to simply kill homosexuals?!

If there's one thing that bugs me, its intentionally misquoting other people.

 

[czgibson]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

Greetings Ansar,

I think you're being overly defensive here. I haven't twisted your words in the slightest. I mentioned Qaradawi's view that suggests homosexuals should be executed, as found in this fatwa:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547102

Muslim jurists hold different opinions concerning the punishment for this abominable practice. Should it be the same as the punishment for fornication, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements.

You then said that such a view was in line with orthodox Muslim thinking. You also said the following:

Islam doesn't punish people with homosexual inclinations, but the unrepentant people who commit homosexual acts despite being advised against it.

You've got an incomplete subordinate clause there, but if I understand you correctly, this amounts to the same thing. If I said "I don't punish people who believe in Islam, merely those who continue to do so after I've advised them against it", you would rightly call that an anti-Islamic view. If people have homosexual inclinations, it doesn't matter how much explaining and advising you do, they're still going to have them, and they're still going to want to go on and commit homosexual acts. Punishing them at any stage is a clear act of homophobia.

What punishment is suggested by most Muslim scholars then?

If you want to misquote and rephrase what I said and take it out of context, that's up to you. If a Muslim went and killed a homosexual it would be murder and that Muslim would be punished.

Quite right.

I already said Islam doesn't punish people with homosexual inclinations, they are simply advised in the same manner that the Shaykh has done here

No you didn't - you said Qaradawi's view was orthodox, and gave an incomplete sentence (as quoted above), which I interpreted as calling for punishment against persistent homosexuals. If I've misunderstood you, and you're not in fact calling for punishment, it's an easy mistake for me to make, since you said most Muslims agreed with Qaradawi's view.

I haven't intentionally misquoted you here at all, Ansar. I'm sorry that you think I have. Maybe you could have another go at making it clear: do most scholars agree with Qaradawi?

Apologies for going way off-topic here. Maybe this would be better in the "Being Gay" thread.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

Posts have been moved here and the thread has been temporarily re-opened.

If people have homosexual inclinations, it doesn't matter how much explaining and advising you do, they're still going to have them

I gave several examples of cases where homosexuals have asked for guidance and corrected themselves, such as here:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=631&main_cat_id=33
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=27176&dgn=4
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=35&dgn=4

and they're still going to want to go on and commit homosexual acts.

I think you need to clarify your views on this matter. On one hand, to suggest homosexuality is natural, you point to animals who exhibit seasonal or temporal homosexual inclinations (according to some biologists). But when it comes to humans, you suggest that human beings are either permanently homo or hetero sexual and that they are born in this manner. Which is it?

Punishing them at any stage is a clear act of homophobia.

If you're askign if Islam is against homosexuality, the answer is a very clear 'yes'.

What punishment is suggested by most Muslim scholars then?

If the person has a mental disorder that causes him to commit the crime, then they are considered insane and treated as opposed to punished. If, however, someone of sane mental condition does not heed advice and practices homosexual acts openly, such that guilt can be established by witnesses, then the punishment according to most scholars is execution.

I already said Islam doesn't punish people with homosexual inclinations, they are simply advised in the same manner that the Shaykh has done here

No you didn't - you said Qaradawi's view was orthodox, and gave an incomplete sentence (as quoted above), which I interpreted as calling for punishment against persistent homosexuals.

Really? Then what about this:

Islam doesn't punish people with homosexual inclinations, but the unrepentant people who commit homosexual acts despite being advised against it.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Please do not respond to this thread to simply give an opinion. Unless any significant new evidence is going to be brought, or a clarification on Shari'ah law, we don't need anymore posts stating, "It's just wrong" etc.

 

[czgibson]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

Hello Ansar,

Posts have been moved here and the thread has been temporarily re-opened.

Thank you for doing this.

I gave several examples of cases where homosexuals have asked for guidance and corrected themselves, such as here:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=631&main_cat_id=33
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=27176&dgn=4
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=35&dgn=4

In the first case you've provided, there is no evidence to suggest the questioner has acted on his feelings, or that he has "repented". In the second case, it seems that the fear of execution is the questioner's main motive for turning away from homosexuality, rather than due to any particular advice. The same might be true in the third case, although there's no firm evidence to back that up.

I think you need to clarify your views on this matter. On one hand, to suggest homosexuality is natural, you point to animals who exhibit seasonal or temporal homosexual inclinations (according to some biologists). But when it comes to humans, you suggest that human beings are either permanently homo or hetero sexual and that they are born in this manner. Which is it?

The answer is that nobody knows for sure. My point is simply that there's nothing wrong with being gay.

If you're askign if Islam is against homosexuality, the answer is a very clear 'yes'.

That's clear enough.

If the person has a mental disorder that causes him to commit the crime, then they are considered insane and treated as opposed to punished. If, however, someone of sane mental condition does not heed advice and practices homosexual acts openly, such that guilt can be established by witnesses, then the punishment according to most scholars is execution.

In other words, my original quote in this, our latest round of considering the question:

I didn't realise that orthodox Muslims supported the killing of homosexuals - that's news to me.

was correct.

Really? Then what about this:

That's the incomplete sentence I was referring to. It now seems I've interpreted it correctly, and if you read what I wrote elsewhere in the post, you'll see that my view is that punishing someone for being gay at any stage is wrong. You say that Islam does not punish people with homosexual inclinations, but now you say if they persist with these inclinations they deserve execution. What is the difference, Ansar? They still have the same inclinations, whether they've acted upon them or not.

The main Islamic advice given to homosexuals seems to consist of scare-tactics - threats of punishment and hellfire. In light of this, it's not surprising that many gay Muslims want to "repent". (I put repent in quotes because, of course, I do not believe homosexuality is a sin).

Our present discussion comes down to this quote of mine:

I didn't realise that orthodox Muslims supported the killing of homosexuals - that's news to me.

which you claimed was a misquote (or rephrase) of your words. Fair enough, you didn't use those exact words, but then I wasn't quoting you. I was simply trying to confirm the tenor of what you had said by reference to the views of Qaradawi. You also said that I was speaking out of context, which is irrelevant - if you support the execution of homosexuals, then my comment was accurate. So how have I twisted your words here?

Peace

 

[khurm]

i would hate their action of being gay. a man should not fall in love with another men it is not allowed in islam and a women should not fall in love with another women this is also not allowed. only man and women can fall in love.

 

[iqbal_ibn_adam]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

Hello Ansar,




Can you tell what view did Isa (as) Jesus and Musa (as) had about gays?

 

[shanu]

no we dont hate that frend.
Becos he is our frend
But we hate da concept that he is gay
N u should tell him that u hate da concept and advise him out of it. N by doing that ur being a good frend

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

The answer is that nobody knows for sure.

If nobody knows for sure, then you cannot reasonably object to the notion of a advising a person against such behavior. For example, your next statement is based on the view that people are permanently one sexual orientation or the other:

What is the difference, Ansar? They still have the same inclinations, whether they've acted upon them or not.

You negate the possibility that a person can remove such inclinations, which has happened. There are a number of people who convert to Islam and give up homosexuality.

The main Islamic advice given to homosexuals seems to consist of scare-tactics - threats of punishment and hellfire.

No, the focus is on the ill-effects of homosexuality, medically, socially, spiritually, etc.

In light of this, it's not surprising that many gay Muslims want to "repent".

There are many former homosexuals who convert to Islam. Why?

You also said that I was speaking out of context, which is irrelevant - if you support the execution of homosexuals, then my comment was accurate. So how have I twisted your words here?

Is it fair to rephrase the position of someone who isn't a complete pacifist and say, "He supports killing human beings". No, of course not, because when you rephrase such a person's position like that, it conveys the false impression that they advocate murder. It is not fair to say that someone who supports capital punishment supports the killing of human ebings, because although their position may entail that in some cases, to state suchg conveys an inherently false impression.

Coming back to my position, if someone is a homosexual, that doesn't mean we kill them. If that person does homosexual acts publically, then they do need to be punished. Can you not see the difference?

 

[czgibson]

Re: Muslim men can marry cathliocs???

Hello Ansar,

If nobody knows for sure, then you cannot reasonably object to the notion of a advising a person against such behavior.

Whether or not homosexuality is genetically predetermined or is a result of environmental influences, I fail to see how this has an impact on its moral status.

For example, your next statement is based on the view that people are permanently one sexual orientation or the other:

Not so - although this is certainly a possibility, it's not something I would assert as being indubitably true. All I'm saying is that if someone has homosexual inclinations and is then strongly (and successfully) advised against them, they will still have the same inclinations - the incliniations will just be repressed. They won't appear on the surface, but they will surely remain latent in the person's psyche.

You negate the possibility that a person can remove such inclinations, which has happened. There are a number of people who convert to Islam and give up homosexuality.

OK - see the point about repression.

No, the focus is on the ill-effects of homosexuality, medically, socially, spiritually, etc.

One of the examples you gave me mentioned the potential negative medical consequences of homosexuality, but as I thought we'd already established, these are also dangers of hetero-sex. I don't recall seeing any advice regarding negative social consequences. Finally, what are the spiritual consequences besides hellfire?

There are many former homosexuals who convert to Islam. Why?

A very good question. Can you provide me with any examples of this?

Is it fair to rephrase the position of someone who isn't a complete pacifist and say, "He supports killing human beings". No, of course not, because when you rephrase such a person's position like that, it conveys the false impression that they advocate murder. It is not fair to say that someone who supports capital punishment supports the killing of human ebings, because although their position may entail that in some cases, to state suchg conveys an inherently false impression.

You're quite right - I apologise if my statement of the Muslim position seemed unfairly absolutist. In my defence, however, I was assuming that by 'homosexuals' you meant 'practising homosexuals', which is how the term is tacitly understood in the West. If I were to summarise your position as being 'practising homosexuals deserve to be executed' would that be fair?

Coming back to my position, if someone is a homosexual, that doesn't mean we kill them. If that person does homosexual acts publically, then they do need to be punished. Can you not see the difference?

I think I can see the difference, but we're still suffering from a lack of clarity here. Are we assuming that the punishment you speak of is execution?

Now that you mention public acts of homosexuality, I would have thought that changes the scope of the debate considerably. If you're referring to open displays of sodomy in the high street of your local town, I can see why you would find that offensive - I would too. It depends on what you mean by 'publically'. If someone is widely known to be a practising homosexual - like Elton John, for example - is he the kind of person you suggest should be punished by execution, or should he only be executed if he was still unrepentant after advice?

Peace

 

[Sub-Zero]

Asalamu Alaikum

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

no, he or she is still the same person, being gay doesn't change anything.