Being Gay

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You've mentioned a number of ailments, all of which could be caught through heterosexual sex too.

As I pointed out to root, I'm not saying that these diseases are specific to homosexuals. Yes, heterosexuals could engage in anal sex as well (that's why in Islam its forbidden), but that doesn't negate the fact that any group practicising it is wrong. As I wrote before:

Greetings Root,

My original statement was that there were severe medical and islamic consequences to homosexuality. You challenged me to substantiate my claim (the medical aspect I assumed), therefore I proved my claim based on the fact that homosexuality involves anal sex, a very dangerous practice with severe medical consequences. Therefore, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences was 100% true. Your only counter-argument was that anal sex is not practiced only by homosexuals. Of course that's beside the point. I don't care about the harmful consequences of other types of illnesses, I was only dealing with homosexuality.

The fallacy of your argument is akin to the following argument:

if I were arguing that car A is a poor and terrible vehicle, then you respond for proof of car A's low quality. I respond by pointing out its motor problems. You counter by saying that car B also has those problems!

What difference does it make if car B has the same problems?! If car A has the problems then my claim is proven!​

Similarly, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences, is also proven.

And the diseases I highlighted are those that are abundant in the homosexual community.

Also, you are simply discussing male homosexual anal sex - obviously gay men also have other ways of pleasuring each other.

It really makes no difference to my argument. I'm not talking about how they 'pleasure' eachother', I'm talking about the disastrous consequences of homosexual acts. And because the west has given the message that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, homosexuals will desire to engage in homosexual acts.

Secondly, Islam condemns the homosexual acts. From an Islamic perspective, it makes no difference whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic or environmental. Because even if its genetic, then it is considered just like any other medical disease that someone may be born with. If gay's are born with the desire to commit these acts, then its no different from people who are born with the desire to commit fornication and are unable to get married. Everyone must restrain their desires in Islam.

How would you go about showing that lesbianism is wrong?

Well, there is a difference between showing something is wrong, and showing that something has negative consequences. There are risks associated with lesbianism as well, but its wrong in the same way that all homosexuality is wrong.

(You must be aware that the ideas you're putting forward would strike most people in the West as being bigoted in the extreme.)

If this is considered 'bigoted' then so is every medical analysis of all the various mental disorders. Perhaps you could elaborate on what is 'bigoted' about this?

Regards

 

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

As I pointed out to root, I'm not saying that these diseases are specific to homosexuals. Yes, heterosexuals could engage in anal sex as well (that's why in Islam its forbidden), but that doesn't negate the fact that any group practicising it is wrong.

So why aren't you railing against anal sex here then? A lot of the time you seem to say "homosexuality" when in fact what you mean is "anal sex".

And the diseases I highlighted are those that are abundant in the homosexual community.

And in other communities too.

It really makes no difference to my argument. I'm not talking about how they 'pleasure' eachother', I'm talking about the disastrous consequences of homosexual acts. And because the west has given the message that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, homosexuals will desire to engage in homosexual acts.

By "homosexual acts", again you seem to be referring to anal sex only. Here's something you said to Root in an earlier post:

I don't say "Only homosexuals engage in anal sex."

I say, "homosexuals only engage in anal sex."!!

Homosexuals do many things with each other besides anal sex. Lesbians are homosexual, and they hardly engage in anal sex at all. This is a point I think you've pretty much missed, and it obviously makes a difference to your argument.

Secondly, Islam condemns the homosexual acts. From an Islamic perspective, it makes no difference whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic or environmental. Because even if its genetic, then it is considered just like any other medical disease that someone may be born with.

Not true. Do you think less of someone's moral character when they acquire a disease?

Well, there is a difference between showing something is wrong, and showing that something has negative consequences. There are risks associated with lesbianism as well, but its wrong in the same way that all homosexuality is wrong.

If the risks are different, why is it wrong in the same way?

The risks mentioned in the article are lifestyle risks which are not unique to gay people. Also, as the summary of the article at the top of the page says:

Society's disapproval, the study's author suggests,
is the likely source of these risky lifestyles.

In other words, if homophobia did not exist in society, then neither would the risks mentioned.

If this is considered 'bigoted' then so is every medical analysis of all the various mental disorders. Perhaps you could elaborate on what is 'bigoted' about this?

Certainly. You have chosen to think less of people who are gay with no good reason. You equate "homosexuality" with "anal sex", even though this is not the only method of homosexual sex - certainly not for lesbians, whose lifestyle, you say, is wrong "in the same way" as that of gay men.

On the point about mental disorders, I'm shocked that you could say this. Psychiatrists study mental disorders in the hope of helping their patients, but they do not cast moral aspersions on them simply because they have developed, say, schizophrenia. Your attitude towards homosexuality is very different from this. You have not studied it, and you show your lack of knowledge about it with every post. It is something unknown to you, and you are afraid of it, so you lash out with accusations and assertions that prove nothing.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality. There may be health risks, but these exist for heterosexuals too. To say that homosexuality is wrong is one of the most widely known forms of bigotry.

Sorry to sound harsh here, Ansar, but in this case I believe your position is well and truly groundless.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

So why aren't you railing against anal sex here then? A lot of the time you seem to say "homosexuality" when in fact what you mean is "anal sex".

No, I mean both.

Homosexuals do many things with each other besides anal sex. Lesbians are homosexual, and they hardly engage in anal sex at all. This is a point I think you've pretty much missed, and it obviously makes a difference to your argument.

Do you agree with someone marrying their parents, so long as there is consent? Most people argue against this by pointing out the genetic diseases that could result from this. But then, using your point, someone could respond by saying that they have other ways to 'pleasure' eachother.

Not true. Do you think less of someone's moral character when they acquire a disease?

We think less of one's moral character if they are unable to control their desires. Homosexuality does not mean that someone is unable to control their desires, it means that they have different desires to cope with. So, if someone has homoseuxal tendencies, but they restrain themselves and turn away from evil and towards God, I would not think less of them, on the contrary I would admire their moral character and piety.

To say that homosexuality is wrong is one of the most widely known forms of bigotry.

And why is that?

 

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

No, I mean both.

Why is lesbianism wrong, then, in your view?

Do you agree with someone marrying their parents, so long as there is consent? Most people argue against this by pointing out the genetic diseases that could result from this. But then, using your point, someone could respond by saying that they have other ways to 'pleasure' eachother.

Ansar, with all due respect, this is a silly example. Incest could cause the conception of a child; homosexuality could not. This makes it a very different situation.

We think less of one's moral character if they are unable to control their desires. Homosexuality does not mean that someone is unable to control their desires, it means that they have different desires to cope with.

Different to whom? Everyone has different desires, I think.

So, if someone has homoseuxal tendencies, but they restrain themselves and turn away from evil and towards God, I would not think less of them, on the contrary I would admire their moral character and piety.

That's nothing less than I'd expect, and I understand the way you feel about it. I'm just not sure why homosexuality is seen as such an aberration. It seems to have been the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, that have promoted the idea of homosexuality being wrong. Why is this? In traditions outside these, the general view of homosexuality has been neutral or even positive (in some cases, such as ancient Greece, sacred).

What is it about homosexuality that is so wrong?

And why is that?

Do you mean: why is it widely known, or why is it seen as bigotry?

Peace

 

[Daoud]

being gay is no more a choice than being left or right handed or having blue eyes or brown

to suggest otherwise is to say that Allah made a mistake with His creation

 

[azim]

being gay is no more a choice than being left or right handed or having blue eyes or brown

to suggest otherwise is to say that Allah made a mistake with His creation

Homosexuality is not genetics. Allah also stated in the Quran homosexuality is wrong.

Allah also made MEN and WOMEN biologically compatable, if that doesnt make it obvious enough.

Greetings,


Surely there's a difference here - homosexual people can give consent, whereas animals can't.

I support the rights of homosexuals, but I don't support the rights of zoophiles.

Peace

Did you read ALL of my post bro?

 

[Daoud]

Homosexuality is not genetics.

prove it

Allah also stated in the Quran homosexuality is wrong.

can we have the arabic for 'homosexuality is wrong' please?

with verse references

In fact let's not waste time as you won't be able to find it so we can in fact conclude that you are ascribing to Allah something that He didn't say, a very great sin indeed

 

[azim]

prove it

"Homosexuality is not purely genetic. ... Environmental factors play a role. There is not a single master gene that makes people gay." - Dr. Dean Hamer, author of the X chromosome study

"It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain." - - Dr. Simon LeVay, author of the hypothalamus study

The only study that promotes a gay gene is shown in the link below: -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

Yet the results could just as well be linked in to enviromental factors. I also believe several other members have posted links that refute the gay gene in this thread earlier on.

Finally, if you are a muslim, then genetics should matters - Allah's word should.

 

[czgibson]

Re: The 'Homosexuality-Beastiality' parallel

Greetings Azim,

Did you read ALL of my post bro?

Yes, I read all of your post. What point is it you'd like to raise?

Peace

 

[ummbilal]

czgibson, I understand you are playing devils advocate,

homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural and against the laws of God.

a man who feels peopdophilic tendances towards teenage boys acts on them, do you judge him the same as a homosexual?
he cant help these feelings right?

he wont concieve a child either?
if he convinces the young boy he wants to do this too does that make it ok???

my point is is you believe homosexuality is a genetic condition then you must also believe a peopdophile is a victim of genetics gone wrong?

what about transsexuals, Did God make a mistake and great them a male body when they are indeed female, as they claim??

AUTHU BILAHI

ancient greece held homosexuality as sacred?


they didnt believe in modesty as we do in islam and encouraged men to look upon other naked men in wrestling and sports, to muslims and other faiths this is abhorrant, discusting.


up until 50 or so years ago being a homosexual was a criminal offence in Uk, now its commen place, did all these homosexuals exist 50 years ago or are young men being confused by the constant social conditioning they are subjected to??
turn on childrens tv and they have homosexuals presenting, MTV is full of homosexuality george micheal etc..

its seen as hip to be homosexual.

it is a deception of the shaitan.

as an athest i dont really expect you to understand when i say no men were homosexual until the people of Lot as and Allah destroyed them.

this is reason enough for me to know homosexuality is wrong,

inshaallah Allah will guide you

i wish you peace.

 

[azim]

can we have the arabic for 'homosexuality is wrong' please?

with verse references

In fact let's not waste time as you won't be able to find it so we can in fact conclude that you are ascribing to Allah something that He didn't say, a very great sin indeed

"What! Do you come to the males from among the creatures.
And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives. Nay - you are a people exceeding limits!" - Surah 26 - Verses 165 - 166

"What! Do you approach men lustfully rather than women. Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly!" - Surah 27 - Verse 55

"Most surely you come unto males in lust rather than females. Nay, you are a wanton people." - Surah 7 - Verse 81

Brother please, don't act ignorantly on this topic. Research the matter, ask the scholars, read the books. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge that you are correct.

Greetings,


Surely there's a difference here - homosexual people can give consent, whereas animals can't.

I support the rights of homosexuals, but I don't support the rights of zoophiles.

Peace

In my post I mentioned the 'consent' argument and then ask what if the animal iniated the sexual contact - which is more than possible. In that case, is it ok?

 

[ummbilal]

prove it

mashallah

homosexuality is not genetics because every child is born pure,

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441:

Narrated Abu Huraira :

Allah's Apostle said, "Every child is born with a true faith of Islam (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism, Christianity or Magainism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?" Then Abu Huraira recited the holy verses: "The pure Allah's Islamic nature (true faith of Islam) (i.e. worshipping none but Allah) with which He has created human beings. No change let there be in the religion of Allah (i.e. joining none in worship with Allah). That is the straight religion (Islam) but most of men know, not." (30.30)

is this not proof enough?


is every sexual deviation a product of genetics?
no

we are human beings not animals we practise self restraint.

 

[Daoud]

"What! Do you come to the males from among the creatures.
And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives. Nay - you are a people exceeding limits!" - Surah 26 - Verses 165 - 166

"What! Do you approach men lustfully rather than women. Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly!" - Surah 27 - Verse 55

"Most surely you come unto males in lust rather than females. Nay, you are a wanton people." - Surah 7 - Verse 81

Brother please, don't act ignorantly on this topic. Research the matter, ask the scholars, read the books. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge that you are correct.

so you can't provide the arabic term I asked for

the fact is there is no term in the Qu'ran that translates as 'homosexual' which is what you claimed Allah said - brother, please don't act ignorantly on this subject. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge you are correct.

 

[ummbilal]

can we have the arabic for 'homosexuality is wrong' please?

with verse references

In fact let's not waste time as you won't be able to find it so we can in fact conclude that you are ascribing to Allah something that He didn't say, a very great sin indeed

salaam alakum brother

please be wary of saying things without proof or knowlage, so as to misguide the muslims.

inshaallah when you make a claim back it with hadith and quran or your source or state that it is your opinion,

jazakallah khair.

i tried to pm you this message but your inbox is full, i guess everyone else had the same idea, mashallah

a sign of the last day will be men speaking on Quran and deen when they have no knowlage,

Allah guide us all

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Ummbilal,

What an interesting post.

czgibson, I understand you are playing devils advocate,

Maybe. I'm just putting the point of view that seems most rational to me. If that involves the devil, well, I wouldn't know about that.

homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural and against the laws of God.

What do you mean by unnatural? There are about 450 species of animal that have gay sex too - are they unnatural?

It's "against the laws of God". This seems to be your best argument. It's written, so we must believe it.

a man who feels peopdophilic tendances towards teenage boys acts on them, do you judge him the same as a homosexual?

I do not.

he cant help these feelings right?

What, his desire to abuse children? Says who?

he wont concieve a child either?
if he convinces the young boy he wants to do this too does that make it ok???

A child can't give consent.

my point is is you believe homosexuality is a genetic condition then you must also believe a peopdophile is a victim of genetics gone wrong?

Why must I believe this? Are you aware of the leap of logic you've just made there?

what about transsexuals, Did God make a mistake and great them a male body when they are indeed female, as they claim??

I don't think god has anything to do with it.

AUTHU BILAHI

That sounds interesting. Is there a translation?

ancient greece held homosexuality as sacred?

Ancient Greek religion did, yes.

they didnt believe in modesty as we do in islam and encouraged men to look upon other naked men in wrestling and sports, to muslims and other faiths this is abhorrant, discusting.

They didn't so much encourage it, they just didn't see anything wrong with it. It was normal to have naked athletes at the Olympic Games.

up until 50 or so years ago being a homosexual was a criminal offence in Uk, now its commen place, did all these homosexuals exist 50 years ago or are young men being confused by the constant social conditioning they are subjected to??

Homosexuals have existed throughout history. They have not been created recently by some sort of media conspiracy. In fact, one of the very first poets in Western history was Sappho of Lesbos, whose island gave us the word lesbian. In Ancient Greece, homosexuality among adult males was the norm. Heterosexual sex was seen as purely functional, for reproduction and nothing else.

turn on childrens tv and they have homosexuals presenting, MTV is full of homosexuality george micheal etc..

Maybe, but I think you're being a bit paranoid there. What a savage critique of children's TV!

its seen as hip to be homosexual.

Really?

as an athest i dont really expect you to understand when i say no men were homosexual until the people of Lot as and Allah destroyed them.

this is reason enough for me to know homosexuality is wrong,

OK, there were homosexuals in Lot, and Allah destroyed them. There have been homosexuals in lots of other places since then; has Allah been destroying them too?

Or will you rely on the argument from authority?

inshaallah Allah will guide you

Allah has yet to make contact, I'm afraid.

Peace

 

[azim]

so you can't provide the arabic term I asked for

the fact is there is no term in the Qu'ran that translates as 'homosexual' which is what you claimed Allah said - brother, please don't act ignorantly on this subject. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge you are correct.

Bro, English is a completely different language then Arabic. The word homosexual is an English coinage and only entered the vocabulary recently.

I have shown you evidence for my views, where is the evidence for yours?

 

[Daoud]

who are al-Tabi'in ghayr ulu al-Irbat min al-Rijal? 24-31

 

[azim]

Quote:
its seen as hip to be homosexual.


Really?

There is an absurd amount of homosexuals and bisexuals at my college, most of whom are straight as can be. A conversation one my classes last year went something like this?

Teacher: They believed Achilles and Patricles had a sexual relationship...

Pupil1: HA HA! FAG!

Pupil2: Didnt you say you were gay?

Pupil1: ....*prolonged silence*....

 

[Daoud]

Bro, English is a completely different language then Arabic. The word homosexual is an English coinage and only entered the vocabulary recently.

QUOTE]

so how come you said it was in the Qu'ran?

 

[czgibson]

Hello Azim,

There is an absurd amount of homosexuals and bisexuals at my college, most of whom are straight as can be.

What do you mean by straight here?! Or do you mean most of your college are straight?

Teacher: They believed Achilles and Patricles had a sexual relationship...

They certainly did. See Homer's Iliad or Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida for details.

There are always a few gay people hanging around. I don't think they're going to take over the world or anything though.

Peace