Being Gay

[azim]

Hello Azim,


What do you mean by straight here?! Or do you mean most of your college are straight?



They certainly did. See Homer's Iliad or Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida for details.

There are always a few gay people hanging around. I don't think they're going to take over the world or anything though.

Peace

Sorry I wasnt very clear. My point was that many of the people who claim to be gay in my college, are actually heterosexual - its just something of a fashion trend at the moment to be homosexual since its become a sub-culture with its own distinctive style of dress and speech etc...

The second example was something that happened in class. Pupil1 was one of the people who claimed to be gay, but immaturely, he made a joke at Achillies and Patriclus being gay and obviously, claiming to be gay, he had just caught himself out.

 

[Daoud]

please be wary of saying things without proof or knowlage, so as to misguide the muslims.

inshaallah when you make a claim back it with hadith and quran or your source or state that it is your opinion,

I think these comments should be addressed to brother Azim

 

[azim]

so how come you said it was in the Qu'ran?

The words I said are not in the Quran, but the MEANING of the words I said ARE IN THE QURAN.

On your so called 'evidence', you never presented evidence. You presented a line out of context. Bring me the evidence instead of quoting since sentences.

Thirdly, have you ever heard the saying 'Dont argue with fools. They drag you down to their level and beat you by experience'. I feel as if I'm arguing with a fool, so until you make an informed, cohesive, valid post, I am going to discontinue debating with you.

 

[Desai]

We are certainly aware that the sin of homosexuality is haraam. But do we know how serious this crime is and just how despicable it is in the sight of Allah? Just imagine that when it is against the very nature of man, what is the position of the person who indulges in it! Is such a person unaware that Allah in all his might and power is watching him while he indulges in this
haraam act? Is he not aware that Allah has the power to send down upon him a swift and severe punishment or even seize him while he is involved in it?!!! What will his position be when he appears before his Sustainer on the Day of Qiyaamah?

Our life in this world is also a test from Allah. He has placed us in this world and created certain desires within different type of people. But he has not made this world the place for the fulfillment of our desires. Here, we must fill our hearts with the fear of Allah and suppress our own desires and give
priority to the wishes and orders of Allah over our own desires. In return for this our Allah has promised to reward us with Jannah the everlasting place of
indescribable beauty and happiness that He has reserved for us in the
akhirah.

and Allah knows best

 

[Daoud]

The words I said are not in the Quran, but the MEANING of the words I said ARE IN THE QURAN.

On your so called 'evidence', you never presented evidence. You presented a line out of context. Bring me the evidence instead of quoting since sentences.

Thirdly, have you ever heard the saying 'Dont argue with fools. They drag you down to their level and beat you by experience'. I feel as if I'm arguing with a fool, so until you make an informed, cohesive, valid post, I am going to discontinue debating with you.

okay, now we're getting somewhere, you've admitted that you claimed something was in the Qu'ran when in fact it wasn't but you still haven't answered my question so I'll provide the translation for you, maybe that will help things along a bit

Surah-al-Nur 31

And tell believing women that they should lower their gaze, guard their private parts, and not flaunt their charms beyond what it is acceptable to reveal: they should let their headscarves fall to cover their necklines and not reveal their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, theirn brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their womenfolk, their slaves, such men as attend them that have no need of women, or children who are not yet aware of women's nakedness; they should not stamp their feet so as to draw attention to any hidden charms. Believers, all of you, turn to God so that you may prosper.

 

[azim]

okay, now we're getting somewhere, you've admitted that you claimed something was in the Qu'ran when in fact it wasn't but you still haven't answered my question so I'll provide the translation for you, maybe that will help things along a bit

Surah-al-Nur 31

And tell believing women that they should lower their gaze, guard their private parts, and not flaunt their charms beyond what it is acceptable to reveal: they should let their headscarves fall to cover their necklines and not reveal their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, theirn brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their womenfolk, their slaves, such men as attend them that have no need of women, or children who are not yet aware of women's nakedness; they should not stamp their feet so as to draw attention to any hidden charms. Believers, all of you, turn to God so that you may prosper.

I still claim the Quran says that homosexuality is wrong. I will always claim that because the Quran is unchangable and so my comment will always hold true. Just to make my point clear: -


THE QURAN SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG


Now, 'such men that attend them that have no need of women' has a few translations. (If your going to post in arabic, use arabic script rather than transliteration)

Moshin Khan: 'old male servants who lack vigour'
Yusuf Ali: 'male servants free of physical needs'
M. Pickthal: 'male servants who lack vigour'

So those have no need of women can be old men or eunuchs (who were more common in the past and also usually at careers as servants).

Now what about the lines I've shown you, and the story of Sodom, and the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of Allah shakes"

"Kill the one doing it an kill the one it has been done to"

By the way, do you happen to be in any way associated with the Al-Fatihah organisation?

 

[ummbilal]

It's "against the laws of God". This seems to be your best argument. It's written, so we must believe it.


yes, its called faith, something sadly you lack.








Maybe, but I think you're being a bit paranoid there. What a savage critique of children's TV!

no i dont think i am being paranoid at all, i have children, i've seen the change in childrens tv over the past 10 years, i've also studied sociology and this is called socially conditioning, you have been conditioned to think homosexuality is ok, its not, i used to think like you. then Allhumdulilah
Allah made contact, as you put it.

i wonder why do u think u spend so much time on an islamic forum?

this is from Allah so that when u stand before Him to be judged you will say, yes they told me to worship you but i chose not to, and Allah knows best.



Really?

your tone is one of arrogence, as though i am a fool, religion is opium of the masses, you believe no doubt.




OK, there were homosexuals in Lot, and Allah destroyed them. There have been homosexuals in lots of other places since then; has Allah been destroying them too?

Allahu alam

Allah knows best, Allah told us about the people of Lot as as a warning, what has to happen before people will believe??

the sun will raise from the west and the earth will shake and again Allah knows best.

Or will you rely on the argument from authority?

??

you mean scientists?

I'd rather go with my Creator, Allah

oh and Authu Bilahi
means
I seek refuge in Allah



Allah has yet to make contact, I'm afraid.

i think you'll find Allah is closer to u than your juggular vein.

Peace[/QUOTE]:thumbs_up

 

[Daoud]

I still claim the Quran says that homosexuality is wrong. I will always claim that because the Quran is unchangable and so my comment will always hold true. Just to make my point clear: -


THE QURAN SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG

well I've just proved to you that it doesn't, there's no point doing it again

Moshin Khan: 'old male servants who lack vigour'
Yusuf Ali: 'male servants free of physical needs'
M. Pickthal: 'male servants who lack vigour'

So those have no need of women can be old men or eunuchs (who were more common in the past and also usually at careers as servants).

they can be those things but who knows what 'lacking vigour' might mean, given the fact, as we've already seen, there is actually no word in the Qu'ran for 'homosexual'?

the story of Sodom:

the people of Lut were not homosexual, they were heterosexual men who practiced male rape on travellers as a means of humiliating and dishonouring them

hadith: there is no evidence that the Prophet,saws, ever specified same-sex activity as a crime or punished anyone for it. Hadith that claim this do not come from reliable lines of transmission

 

[czgibson]

Hello Ummbilal,

yes, its called faith, something sadly you lack.

You've submitted to an imaginary authority whose pronouncements you glean from a 1400 year-old text. I prefer to accept truth on a more rational basis.

no i dont think i am being paranoid at all, i have children, i've seen the change in childrens tv over the past 10 years, i've also studied sociology and this is called socially conditioning, you have been conditioned to think homosexuality is ok, its not

Who's to say it's not you who've been socially conditioned by your religion?

You still haven't mentioned why it's not OK.

Allah made contact, as you put it.

Everyone understands that Allah forbids homosexuality; nobody is able to say why.

i wonder why do u think u spend so much time on an islamic forum?

Because I think it's important to learn about other cultures. I think if more Westerners did what I'm doing there wouldn't be so much paranoia about Islam.

your tone is one of arrogence, as though i am a fool, religion is opium of the masses, you believe no doubt.

Yes, religion is the opium of the masses, there's no question about that. I don't think you're a fool though - it's just if you present an assertion with no real evidence to back it up I'm likely to be sceptical.

Allah knows best, Allah told us about the people of Lot as as a warning, what has to happen before people will believe??

Allah should do something that could only be attributed to an omnipotent being. That would clear any doubts. It would also make sense if he was consistent in his punishments. If he destroys one group of gay people, then leaves many other gay people alone, is it any wonder people haven't got the message?

the sun will raise from the west and the earth will shake and again Allah knows best.

Do you believe this?

Or will you rely on the argument from authority?

The argument from authority is the logical principle you have been using all along in this little discussion. "It's written in the Qur'an, so we must believe it." "Allah says X, therefore we must believe it." Whenever you make an argument from authority, the quality or trustworthiness of that authority has to be determined; if it's ultimately a matter of faith or opinion, then the argument will only convince a believer.

Believing something because it's said by scientists is a very different matter, as they usually have experimental data to back up what they're saying.

i think you'll find Allah is closer to u than your juggular vein.

It would certainly be a nice surprise. I'd certainly like to believe in Allah - it would be very comforting, I think. However, I don't have a single shred of a reason for doing so.

Peace

 

[minaz]

However, I don't have a single shred of a reason for doing so.

Inshaallah one day this will change, I for one know you like to learn about the true religion on this forum - which is good. However, maybe first hand accounts outside the "cyber world" may hit home better (through talking to muslims or visiting the mosque). Anywho continue posting your questions and sometimes you get good answers (as seen in your famous debates with Ansar!) but sometimes reaction from some members may not be in the same nature as Ansar's - this is one of the limitations of learning Islam online.

I'd be interested to see your book of what you think are smart quotes then

Yeh I call it the Qu'ran - give it a go sometime top notch stuff

there are loads of situations where men who are not gay have sex with each other QUOTE]
They aint called gay they're called bisexual

they only do it in those situations and when they have access to women again they go back to sex with women

Lol they need to get their priorities right

 

[czgibson]

Hi Minaz,

Thanks for your kind words.

Inshaallah one day this will change, I for one know you like to learn about the true religion on this forum - which is good. However, maybe first hand accounts outside the "cyber world" may hit home better (through talking to muslims or visiting the mosque). Anywho continue posting your questions and sometimes you get good answers (as seen in your famous debates with Ansar!) but sometimes reaction from some members may not be in the same nature as Ansar's - this is one of the limitations of learning Islam online.

It was through knowing and discussing with Muslims that I got the curiosity to come onto a board like this. My best friend at University was a Muslim named Muhammad who used to enjoy debates; and in my job as an English language teacher I had several classes of Muslim guys from Saudi, UAE, Turkey, Bangladesh and so on.

I'm not put off by answers that don't have Ansar's (and others') calm, measured tone - it's to be expected, coming here as an atheist. I've learned a lot here - long may it continue!

Peace

 

[Daoud]

Quote:
Originally Posted by azim
I still claim the Quran says that homosexuality is wrong. I will always claim that because the Quran is unchangable and so my comment will always hold true. Just to make my point clear: -


THE QURAN SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG



well I've just proved to you that it doesn't, there's no point doing it again


Quote:
Originally Posted by azim

Moshin Khan: 'old male servants who lack vigour'
Yusuf Ali: 'male servants free of physical needs'
M. Pickthal: 'male servants who lack vigour'

So those have no need of women can be old men or eunuchs (who were more common in the past and also usually at careers as servants).



they can be those things but who knows what 'lacking vigour' might mean, given the fact, as we've already seen, there is actually no word in the Qu'ran for 'homosexual'?

the story of Sodom:

the people of Lut were not homosexual, they were heterosexual men who practiced male rape on travellers as a means of humiliating and dishonouring them

hadith: there is no evidence that the Prophet,saws, ever specified same-sex activity as a crime or punished anyone for it. Hadith that claim this do not come from reliable lines of transmission

I seem to be having trouble with this thread, I can't seem to open the last few pages properly so for the sake of continuity I've put this one up again in hopes of an intelligent response

 

[baby_muslimah15]

I'd be interested to see your book of what you think are smart quotes then, not that you were even quoting me

there are loads of situations where men who are not gay have sex with each other - prison, armed forces etc - they only do it in those situations and when they have access to women again they go back to sex with women

I dont care thats still nasty, and once you do that I consider you GAY cuz thats know excuase to have sex with men....No 1 told you 2 join those things, but prison its not a choice, but still you should still try and contron yo self cuz once you come out your known 4 having sex with men, And thats just plain nasty(same thing 4 women as well) Thats just my opinion!!!!......And I hope b4 they go back to women I hope they get checked for STDs.......Sorry if I went 2 far....Salaamz

BTW not pointing at you excatally(just ppl who do that)

 

[Daoud]

I dont care thats still nasty, and once you do that I consider you GAY cuz thats know excuase to have sex with men....)

a person that can have sex with men and women is not gay, a gay person has no sexual interest in the other gender

 

[razzzy101]

Homosexuality is greatly hated in islam and they will be cursed liked the people of the past. any type of sex witht he same sex is considered homosexuality, and also one should abstain from zina,(fornification) as this is a great sin aswel.

 

[Daoud]

Homosexuality is greatly hated in islam .

there is no evidence that the Prophet,saws, ever specified same-sex activity as a crime or punished anyone for it. Hadith that claim this do not come from reliable lines of transmission

 

[razzzy101]

Actually i study in a Islmaic Academy, and homosexuality is strictly forbdden in Islam, and its not a Hadith its a Quranic Ayah that mentions this. Please research before you swing false accusations.

 

[Daoud]

Actually i study in a Islmaic Academy, and homosexuality is strictly forbdden in Islam, and its not a Hadith its a Quranic Ayah that mentions this. Please research before you swing false accusations.

well we've been through this further up the thread, there is no statement in the Qu'ran that directly prohibits homosexuality and there is no evidence that the Prophet, saws, did either

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

well that's a personal question and as such outside the scope of this discussion

Wel then, why do you seem to support them so much? I believe the Quran doesnt specifically use the word "homosexuality", but it does use the technical term "sodomy" in referance to the people of the Prophet Lut. Surah Qamar:

33. The people of Lout (Lot) belied the warnings.

34. Verily, We sent against them a violent storm of stones (which destroyed them all), except the family of Lout (Lot), whom We saved in last hour of the night,

35. As a Favour from Us, thus do We reward him who gives thanks (by obeying Us).

36. And he [Lout (Lot)] indeed had warned them of Our Grasp, but they did doubt the warnings!

37. And they indeed sought to shame his guest (by asking to commit sodomy with them). So We blinded their eyes, "Then taste you My Torment and My Warnings."

38. And verily, an abiding torment seized them early in the morning.

39. "Then taste you My Torment and My Warnings."

40. And indeed, We have made the Qur'ân easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

I advice that you read this in its entirety:

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/homosexuality.htm

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/homosexuality_sickness.htm

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/knots_of_shaytan.htm


Inshallah, you will understand the true nature of that filthy lifestyle.

 

[root]

You're putting Islam on the same level as homosexuality. Yet, we know that homosexuality has disatrous medical consequences, which you weren't able to deny. Thus, it is rightly condemned as an evil sin

I don't claim Islam is bad and never have. However, could you refute the Islamic denial of polio vaccinations because the senior Muslim clerics suspected it was a western plot to sterilise the women and lead directly to an outbreak and rise in polio cases....... Does this not also carry "Medical Consequences"

If you can't then why claim you can!!!!!

Regards

Root