best way to give Dawah to Sikh Friend?

[keiv]

When Guru Nanak got revelation his very first words were, “there is no hindu, there is no Muslim”. When a hindu and a Muslim asked which one is on the right path, Guru Nanak replied, “without good deeds and without good karma both will be lost”. As per Sikhism, “God exists from beginning, and now, and will exist eternally” Sikhism rejects science and scientific proves because then that would put God before science to prove, God is experienced through oneself, through praises, singing glories, mediating on him which 100% agrees ok Sufism. All the 10 gurus have several incidents in history, let’s take one and analyze:


Two Muslims came to Guru Nanak and asked him to join with him to offer namaz to God, Guru Nanak agreed and went with them to offer prayer but Guru Nanak totally prayed in opposite direction. The two Muslims asked why didn’t you pray towards God’s house? Guru Nanak replied my gods house is in every direction, to the north, to the east, to the west to the south, everything belongs to him.


The list is long of several incidents it’s best to talk with Granthi.

Muslims do not believe it to be the literal house of God. We also believe everything belongs to Him. We face the Qibla during praying because it was commanded to us but, it's also unique because all Muslims around the world do it. There is more unity in it. If you go to a congregation and everyone is facing their own direction, it would look unorganized and rather silly to be honest.

 

[Singh123a]

Muslims do not believe it to be the literal house of God. We also believe everything belongs to Him. We face the Qibla during praying because it was commanded to us but, it's also unique because all Muslims around the world do it. There is more unity in it. If you go to a congregation and everyone is facing their own direction, it would look unorganized and rather silly to be honest.

Yes, that is the belief system. In Sikhism, God commanded unity for entire humanity let it be hindu, Muslim or anyone. There are difference of belief between Islam and Sikhism.

 

[keiv]

Wouldn’t you consider the guru intentionally praying in the opposite direction to be more rebellious than unifying?

 

['Abdullah]

As per Sikhism, The thing is is there are good and bad apples in every basket. Let it be Muslim, Sikh, hindu we all still do bad and good regardless. While belief in one god is important many things are taken into consideration think of it as a bad karma weight and good karma weight. Sikhism’s perspective of heaven and hell is different. Let’s take an example. A baby which is born without an arm, that’s karma of past deeds, cycle of reincarnation otherwise what else could be the reason? Test? The new life already lost the test before even beginning to take it. A baby who is deformed can not be a test but actions of previous karma. Sikhism rejects proves when concerning God because God is beyond science. The proof would be realizing him. I will definitely look into the form thanks.

Based on understanding, Sikhism accepts the Hindu belief in karma and reincarnation but preaches a simple way of ending the cycle, by living a disciplined life. Sikhs believe that through the grace of God and by constantly contemplating upon and repeating His name one can be liberated from the cycle of birth and death. Guru Nanak explained to his followers that birth is due to Karma but liberation is due to God’s grace. Guru Nanak taught that salvation does not mean entering paradise after a last judgment, but a union and absorption into God, sometimes referred to as the True Name.

Now you gave an example of a baby born without an arm and you think its because of baby's Karma. What about the babies who are born perfect but they die after few hours? Do they acquire True Name without any hard work?
As you raised a question that is it possible that this baby born without an arm can be test? Yes, it indeed is a test for the parents, the sibling etc. Allah has given different capabilities to different people and their test is based on their capabilities. Some times the kids die before reaching their puberty, in this case these kids are purely a test for their parents and a reminder for us that we all come from Allah and go back to Allah. If a person remains patient, then these kids and babies will intercede for their parents on the day of Judgement with the permission of Allah.

Sikhs also believe that God is in everything and everywhere. That conflicts with Islam and attributes of God. God by definition is eternal, does not change His nature, is infinite and perfect. Therefore any thing which is finite, mortal, imperfect and changes it nature can't be God.

 

[Singh123a]

Wouldn’t you consider the guru intentionally praying in the opposite direction to be more rebellious than unifying?

The reason why Guru Nanak prayed in opposite direction is to tell several things as per Sikhism unity should be focused on God. Let’s take example the main Sikh worship temple called Golden Temple - there is a reason it has 4 way entrance and that reason is that no matter if you are hindu, Christian Muslim anybody is welcome because before anything else we all are humans. Guru Nanak was not against Islam because all the Guru is saying that unification should be with almighty when we pray try to forget everything else and focus your mind, soul and body on him alone. Sikhism is more of mystic Sufism.

I have seen some Muslims come to our Gurdwara for learning only which is ok I suppose

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Based on understanding, Sikhism accepts the Hindu belief in karma and reincarnation but preaches a simple way of ending the cycle, by living a disciplined life. Sikhs believe that through the grace of God and by constantly contemplating upon and repeating His name one can be liberated from the cycle of birth and death. Guru Nanak explained to his followers that birth is due to Karma but liberation is due to God’s grace. Guru Nanak taught that salvation does not mean entering paradise after a last judgment, but a union and absorption into God, sometimes referred to as the True Name.

Now you gave an example of a baby born without an arm and you think its because of baby's Karma. What about the babies who are born perfect but they die after few hours? Do they acquire True Name without any hard work?
As you raised a question that is it possible that this baby born without an arm can be test? Yes, it indeed is a test for the parents, the sibling etc. Allah has given different capabilities to different people and their test is based on their capabilities. Some times the kids die before reaching their puberty, in this case these kids are purely a test for their parents and a reminder for us that we all come from Allah and go back to Allah. If a person remains patient, then these kids and babies will intercede for their parents on the day of Judgement with the permission of Allah.

Sikhs also believe that God is in everything and everywhere. That conflicts with Islam and attributes of God. God by definition is eternal, does not change His nature, is infinite and perfect. Therefore any thing which is finite, mortal, imperfect and changes it nature can't be God.

Ok, let’s say the test is for the parents of the baby, the siblings, but what about the baby itself? Why is the new life getting punished? If the baby died after few hours, sure yes I agree it’s punishment for the parents but it still comes back to point a - why the new life ended for the baby itself....God being everywhere in Gurmukhi doesn’t mean physical attributions it simply means gods realization in Sufi aspect. But yes Sikhism and Islam are different in belief system

 

['Abdullah]

Ok, let’s say the test is for the parents of the baby, the siblings, but what about the baby itself? Why is the new life getting punished? If the baby died after few hours, sure yes I agree it’s punishment for the parents but it still comes back to point a - why the new life ended for the baby itself....God being everywhere in Gurmukhi doesn’t mean physical attributions it simply means gods realization in Sufi aspect. But yes Sikhism and Islam are different in belief system

Kids who die before puberty will be in paradise without any questioning.

Let me quote few hadiths regarding sufferings in life and their reward in hereafter:


Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) reported that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

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For any adversity a Muslim suffers, Allah erases some of his sins, even though it may be no more than a thorn pricking him.(Al-Bukhari).

Another version of this Hadith is also related by Al-Bukhari on the authority of two of the Prophet’s (PBUH) companions, namely, Abu Saeed Al-Khudri and Abu Hurairah who quote him as saying:

Whatever befalls a Muslim of exhaustion, illness, worry, grief, nuisance or trouble, even though it may be no more than a prick of a thorn, earns him forgiveness by Allah of some of his sins. (Al-Bukhari)

Jabir ibn Abdullah narrated that Allah’s Messenger PBUH said,

On the Day of Resurrection, when people who have suffered affliction are given their reward, those who are healthy will wish their skins had been cut to pieces with scissors when they were in the world. (Al-Tirmidhi, 1570)

Now let me ask what's the proof that Sikhism is not a man made religion? If you are not born as a Sikh, how would you realize Sikhism is the true religion?

 

[Singh123a]

Ok but there is no actual explanation of why the baby died...this is why past karma comes to play so in those terms it’s different. In regards to religion, Sikhism is word of god because it rejects science because god is above science, God cannot be realized by idolship, rituals, pictures. As per Sikhism, anyone is welcome to God’s house of worship because of humanity together prays and your immersed in his naam simran as we call it then you’ve realized God, because God is all about love, compassion. A Sikhs duty is to help the poor just like what Islam says, do your daily prayers, let go of the 5 vices which is kam, karod, lobh, moh, and anghar, do langhar seva, work truthfully and earn honest living, and be warm welcoming to anybody regardless of religion to Gurdwara or Golden Temple. Guru Nanaks attempt was to bring humanity in all because God will be more appeased for such a way of life

 

[keiv]

The reason why Guru Nanak prayed in opposite direction is to tell several things as per Sikhism unity should be focused on God. Let’s take example the main Sikh worship temple called Golden Temple - there is a reason it has 4 way entrance and that reason is that no matter if you are hindu, Christian Muslim anybody is welcome because before anything else we all are humans. Guru Nanak was not against Islam because all the Guru is saying that unification should be with almighty when we pray try to forget everything else and focus your mind, soul and body on him alone. Sikhism is more of mystic Sufism.

I have seen some Muslims come to our Gurdwara for learning only which is ok I suppose

Maybe I’m confused but, I still don’t understand the point behind the incident you posted about. Millions of Muslims all praying in the same direction to the same God at any point of the day seems pretty unifying to me. The soul purpose of praying is to focus on Allah. No singing, instruments, noises, dancing, chanting, etc. What exactly is the argument here?

 

[Singh123a]

Maybe I’m confused but, I still don’t understand the point behind the incident you posted about. Millions of Muslims all praying in the same direction to the same God at any point of the day seems pretty unifying to me. The soul purpose of praying is to focus on Allah. No singing, instruments, noises, dancing, chanting, etc. What exactly is the argument here?

No argument at all, yes millions of Muslims pray in certain direction, but what Guru Nanak is trying to say is let’s say for example you decide to pray opposite direction just a scenario would you still not be able to focus on Allah? The Guru Sahib is simply saying direction or no direction a true Musliman will be successful in focusing on God.

 

['Abdullah]

No argument at all, yes millions of Muslims pray in certain direction, but what Guru Nanak is trying to say is let’s say for example you decide to pray opposite direction just a scenario would you still not be able to focus on Allah? The Guru Sahib is simply saying direction or no direction a true Musliman will be successful in focusing on God.

That's like saying I will do things in my own way, I don't care what Allah said in Quran because I know better than God.

As brother [MENTION=36867]keiv[/MENTION] explained that direction for prayer is to unify Muslims. Divine law unites people to one thing where as human made religions don't focus on unity. Imagine if everyone starts following their own desires, there will be chaos and no one can enforce any law.

 

[Singh123a]

That's like saying I will do things in my own way, I don't care what Allah said in Quran because I know better than God.

As brother @keiv explained that direction for prayer is to unify Muslims. Divine law unites people to one thing where as human made religions don't focus on unity. Imagine if everyone starts following their own desires, there will be chaos and no one can enforce any law.

Guru Nanak got this message from God - this what unity / focus as per Sikhism is it’s not only unity of Muslims but unity for whole of mankind - that is why the very first words which came from Guru Nanak was, “there is no hindu there is no Muslim”. If the focus / unity is with God for a Sikh he or she will pray in any direction. Gods message was to unite humanity - as per Sikhism, but yes this is why Sikhism and Islam is different because both have different beliefs

 

['Abdullah]

You made several statements which lack basic understanding of life and death.

Ok but there is no actual explanation of why the baby died...this is why past karma comes to play so in those terms it’s different.

God is the owner of life and death. If He wants to give life and death to someone, He does not explain it to anyone. You can die during an accident and we can give as many reason as we can but fact of the matter is it was your time to die. Only God know the time of our death and no one can live a second more or less than the appointed time.

In regards to religion, Sikhism is word of god because it rejects science because god is above science.

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This is absurd. Science is a knowledge and it only confirm what is truth. Divine message from God shall have no conflict with established facts of science.

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God cannot be realized by idolship, rituals, pictures.

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Muslims agree with that.​

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As per Sikhism, anyone is welcome to God’s house of worship because of humanity together prays and your immersed in his naam simran as we call it then you’ve realized God, because God is all about love, compassion. A Sikhs duty is to help the poor just like what Islam says, do your daily prayers, let go of the 5 vices which is kam, karod, lobh, moh, and anghar, do langhar seva, work truthfully and earn honest living, and be warm welcoming to anybody regardless of religion to Gurdwara or Golden Temple. Guru Nanaks attempt was to bring humanity in all because God will be more appeased for such a way of life.

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Who is Guru? A Prophet? How you know the message delivered by Guru is from God. This was my main question and you are avoiding to answer this directly.​

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[Singh123a]

You made several statements which lack basic understanding of life and death.

God is the owner of life and death. If He wants to give life and death to someone, He does not explain it to anyone. You can die during an accident and we can give as many reason as we can but fact of the matter is it was your time to die. Only God know the time of our death and no one can live a second more or less than the appointed time.

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This is absurd. Science is a knowledge and it only confirm what is truth. Divine message from God shall have no conflict with established facts of science.

Muslims agree with that.​

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Who is Guru? A Prophet? How you know the message delivered by Guru is from God. This was my main question and you are avoiding to answer this directly.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][SUB][/SUB][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

agree it’s gods choice but then why was the baby born to begin with if it’s destined to die so quick? The matter still comes back to point a - the baby itself got punished.

As per Sikhism God is higher then science, it does not need proofing, proofing is experienced within. The point of how Sikhism to be word of god, is that it unites humanity it does not divide it, there is not a single verse in Shri Guru Granth Sahib which will say Sikhism is higher or Christian is higher, nothing is high or low, the highest of high is Waheguru that’s why before a label of hindu or Christian or anything god said humanity is first and he is appeased when everything is equal and you do your karma, but again there is no right or wrong here it’s totally that Islam and Sikhism is different in various ways

 

['Abdullah]

agree it’s gods choice but then why was the baby born to begin with if it’s destined to die so quick? The matter still comes back to point a - the baby itself got punished.

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As I answered earlier, the baby is going to be in heaven without questioning. If I will have to choose between suffering in temporary life vs heaven for eternity with no suffering and sadness, I will always chose suffering in this life. Refer to hadiths I previously quoted on this subject.
Allah tests whom He loves. Prophets are the one who are tested the most and by your understanding they were punished for their Karma?

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As per Sikhism God is higher then science, it does not need proofing, proofing is experienced within. The point of how Sikhism to be word of god, is that it unites humanity it does not divide it, there is not a single verse in Shri Guru Granth Sahib which will say Sikhism is higher or Christian is higher, nothing is high or low, the highest of high is Waheguru that’s why before a label of hindu or Christian or anything god said humanity is first and he is appeased when everything is equal and you do your karma, but again there is no right or wrong here it’s totally that Islam and Sikhism is different in various ways

That's not a proof by any means. And it is not practical either. Why do Sikhs fight with Hindus if it is all about love? People who are bad should be called out. Love alone is not a solution, you can't run your own house hold based on love alone.​

 

[Singh123a]

Anyways I have to go I have pending documentation to take care of lots of it did not start so won’t be able to come back on this forum - it was very nice discussion may Waheguru bless us all. Joh Bole Sohna Hal, Satsriakal Shri Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Shri Waheguru Ji de Fateh. Satsrikal Khuda Hafiz

 

[MazharShafiq]

You made several statements which lack basic understanding of life and death.

God is the owner of life and death. If He wants to give life and death to someone, He does not explain it to anyone. You can die during an accident and we can give as many reason as we can but fact of the matter is it was your time to die. Only God know the time of our death and no one can live a second more or less than the appointed time.

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[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

This is absurd. Science is a knowledge and it only confirm what is truth. Divine message from God shall have no conflict with established facts of science.

Muslims agree with that.​

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[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Who is Guru? A Prophet? How you know the message delivered by Guru is from God. This was my main question and you are avoiding to answer this directly.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][SUB][SUP]
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well said