Bible authenticity and transmission,fully detailed argument.

[mkh4JC]

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.


so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?

:wa:

That was just an instance where God closed up Mary's understanding. God can do this, if he so chooses. It has happened to me once when I was in my sins and my dad told me about a time that it happened to him.

Back in 2002 I was trying to take advantage of someone sexually who were asleep and it was like the Lord closed up my understanding, so the result was that I couldn't enjoy it, so I didn't go all the way. While it was happening I didn't understand what it was and afterwards (even when I reflected on it) I didn't understand. When I later accepted Christ that summer I realized that God intervened on my behalf, that he protected me from myself.

When it happend to my dad at my old church a brother in Christ approached him and told him that there was a job opening at some place of employ and he--the brother--wanted my dad to apply. But my dad didn't reply to what he put forth. Then the brother came back and told my dad that it was too late to apply for the job, and my dad replied in shock because he realized that the Lord closed up his understanding, because he didn't want him working there. Turns out the job that he got was one owned by a Jewish man, whom he had the opportunity to witness to.

The same thing happened with other disciples who met Jesus on a road and when they had a conversation with him:

'And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

And how the cheif priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done.

Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early to the sepulchre;

And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

And certain of them which were with us went to the sephulcre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

Then he said unto them, Of fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And they drew nigh unto the village, wither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

But they constrained him, saying Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. Luke 24: 15-31


So God just closed up their understanding in those cases as well.

 

[Uthman]

Are we talking about the crucifixion of Jesus now?

 

[جوري]

here's our position on the death of Isa;



that's it, that's ALL of it. we TRUST in Allah. rather than have our own conjecture, we leave it at that unless Allah and His Messenger said otherwise.

the interesting thing about the "face swap" that you keep bringing up, THAT ideas found in your Gospel of John! let's have a looksy, eh:

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.


so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?

:wa:

Love it when you kick A** with minimal effort, almost as much as I enjoy them wriggle for a coherent response and always coming up ;D..

Jazaka Allah khyran..
Nasarak Allah 3la al qawm alkfereen wa'la3anat Allah 3lyhoum..

ameen

 

[Sojourn]

actually, you believe that Jesus "rose" after 2 days, thus nullifying his own "3 days and 3 nights prophecy!"

It would help if you understand the phrase is a Jewish idiom.

i NEVER said Jesus was swapped with Judah. THAT is what you say. you seem to be having your own dialogue!

It's a popular belief among some Muslims that Judas was crucified in place of Christ, I dont know the source of it, do you?

Ehrman started a Christian, so i understand his faulty reasoning in that respect. but seeing as i an NOT an agnostic, i couldn't agree with him 100% now, could i?

The Crucifixion is the decisive issue between Islam and Chrisitanity. Despite your attack on the textual veracity of the Bible, there is no question the NT is accurate in saying Jesus suffered on the Cross, and that is precisely where you *need* the Bible to be wrong.

so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?

So you believe this suggests a "face swap" despite the text explicitly showing it's Jesus speaking to Mary the whole time?

 

[Sojourn]

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Appeared to them so?

 

[Ramadhan]

Love it when you kick A** with minimal effort, almost as much as I enjoy them wriggle for a coherent response and always coming up ;D..

Jazaka Allah khyran..
Nasarak Allah 3la al qawm alkfereen wa'la3anat Allah 3lyhoum..

ameen

I don't enjoy their INCOHERENT responses and unintelligible answers, it's painful, eg. the above answer about "closed understanding"??

 

[Grace Seeker]

Everyone understands best that which they are already predisposed to understand. The "logic" of Islam is just as much a straining of credulity for me as is that which you object to within the Christian faith.

 

[YusufNoor]

It would help if you understand the phrase is a Jewish idiom.

actually, "Matthew" was written in Greek. as for the sign of Jonah, he was ALIVE in the belly of the [fish] for 3 days and 3 nights

It's a popular belief among some Muslims that Judas was crucified in place of Christ, I dont know the source of it, do you?

nope, in fact when we don't know the answer to a question we are supposed to say, "I DON'T KNOW!"

The Crucifixion is the decisive issue between Islam and Chrisitanity. Despite your attack on the textual veracity of the Bible,

actually i merely quote what scholars of the NT and OT say. you may categorize them any way you wish.

there is no question the NT is accurate in saying Jesus suffered on the Cross, and that is precisely where you *need* the Bible to be wrong.

not really, because it is my belief that the ONLY parts of the NT that are correct are those in line with the Qur'an. using John 20 however, one could make the claim that it was the gardener who was crucified as Jesus had assumed his appearance.

So you believe this suggests a "face swap" despite the text explicitly showing it's Jesus speaking to Mary the whole time?

i'm not suggesting anything, merely pointing out where your book gives credence to odd clams.

Are we talking about the crucifixion of Jesus now?

no, we are discussing "Scriptural" references to the crucifixion. ;D

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Appeared to them so?

I DON'T KNOW! Allah and His Messenger know Best!

Everyone understands best that which they are already predisposed to understand. The "logic" is Islam is just a much a straining of credulity for me as is that which you object to within the Christian faith.

and i would say that Islam is a Religion of logic where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...

:wa:

 

[mkh4JC]

I don't enjoy their INCOHERENT responses and unintelligible answers, it's painful, eg. the above answer about "closed understanding"??

Well, I don't know what to tell you. It's not something I made up I can tell you that much. And no, it wasn't just me being hesitant or wary of "going all the way." I've only experienced it once but I know without doubt it was God's way of intervening on my behalf, his way of stopping me from destroying myself. Not only that but I supported it with scripture.

 

[Grace Seeker]

and I would say that Islam is a Religion of logic where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...

:wa:


[emphasis added]

Of course, YOU would. That was pretty much my point after all.

 

[Hugo]

and i would say that Islam is a Religion of logic where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...
:wa:

Since we are talking about authenticity and transmission can you be a bit more precise what you mean by 'a religion of logic' whereas Christianity is shrouded in mystery? There is mystery in all religions including Islam, indeed there are many things we don't know about God: why choose Abraham for example, and if one reads the Biblical accounts it sounds as if he is wandering in lands where he is almost totally alone yet we know that he was surrounded by many glittering empires - so what was God doing, what was God's logic?

The Jewish faith as we know it started with Abraham and we can trace that development right through to Jesus and I would say the coherence in the Bible though, it contains 66 books written over many centuries is unmistakable - so in a way it is not logic we should worry about but as people have asked for perhaps as much as 5,000 years - what is God saying to us in the words that have been recorded?

 

[جوري]

Of course, YOU would. That was pretty much my point after all.

Actually HE isn't alone and it is a wonder for even if you don't accept Islam as the one true religion you'll perhaps with theism that can't be channeled rather than concede to mythologies of a 'god born of women from the seeds of david'.. and I think anyone brooding and discerning comes up with the same conclusion, though they don't make a habit of writing convoluted sermons on random threads to assert their convictions.

Perhaps Christianity can use another revival -- but the world is too advanced now to overlook the mind boggling aspects on which your entire faith rests!

all the best

 

[جوري]

I don't enjoy their INCOHERENT responses and unintelligible answers, it's painful, eg. the above answer about "closed understanding"??

well what else is left were it not for the dreams that they somehow convince themselves are divine in nature especially those that make allowable all their base desires?

2:109 Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed. From selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplisheth His purpose: for Allah hath power over all things.

 

[Hugo]

Actually HE isn't alone and it is a wonder for even if you don't accept Islam as the one true religion you'll perhaps with theism that can't be channeled rather than concede to mythologies of a 'god born of women from the seeds of david'.. and I think anyone brooding and discerning comes up with the same conclusion, though they don't make a habit of writing convoluted sermons on random threads to assert their convictions.

Perhaps Christianity can use another revival -- but the world is too advanced now to overlook the mind boggling aspects on which your entire faith rests!

all the best

You have a point but give us a 'mind boggling aspect' of Christianity (just one at a time please) and we will respond with an equally mind boggling one for Islam. Faith is a kind of mystery and it is no real mystery that we find each others viewpoint or beliefs puzzling or mind boggling and there are plenty of people out there who would regard both of us as totally nuts to believe what we do.

 

[جوري]

You have a point but give us a 'mind boggling aspect' of Christianity (just one at a time please) and we will respond with an equally mind boggling one for Islam. Faith is a kind of mystery and it is no real mystery that we find each others viewpoint or beliefs puzzling or mind boggling and there are plenty of people out there who would regard both of us as totally nuts to believe what we do.

I see the message of Jesus/Moses and the rest in a continuum and in complete concert with Islam in course, law and practice, just not the brand of Christianity that you practice, and not the convoluted details that have adulterated it.. nonetheless if you strip it from eating and drinking the flesh of God and the rest you'll be left with the basic principles that are constitutional to all monotheistic religions..

what br. Yusuf is trying to say is that at the very fulcrum of your religion is something counter intuitive to what believe God to be.. In other words if you sit and ponder (a form of worship in Islam) and said practice of all messengers you'll reach a pivotal point where you'll see the mastery and organization of the universe as the work of a supreme being, or you'll become an atheist, but if the first is your choice and no inspiration or message came to you, then you'll almost inevitably come up with one God and you won't get colorful about his being.

There is no need to get into the nature of God to adore him..

all the best!

 

[Sojourn]

actually, "Matthew" was written in Greek.

Actually Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew and then transcribed it into Greek, but this is besides the point. The phrase, "Three days and three nights" is not meant to signify an exact passing of 72hrs, it's a Hebrew idiom for three days later, much the same way on Sunday morning I could say, "I've worked on this painting for three days!" even though I started working on it Friday night. No one would understand it to mean that I spent the last three 24hr blocks of time working on a painting. The Hebrew idiom is used in the same sense.

as for the sign of Jonah, he was ALIVE in the belly of the [fish] for 3 days and 3 nights

You must be a fan of Ahmed Deedat. Even if we are forced to take your hyper-literal interpretation of the prophecy, such that Christ was taken off the Cross within an inch of life remaining (an English idiom!) it still doesn't fit the Quranic account, which says Jesus was not crucified.

nope, in fact when we don't know the answer to a question we are supposed to say, "I DON'T KNOW!"

I've heard all sorts of things from Muslims. Here is what Ibn Kathir writes in his tafsir concerning surah 4 aya 157:

"When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that `Isa was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep.

Where did Ibn Kathir get this?

not really, because it is my belief that the ONLY parts of the NT that are correct are those in line with the Qur'an.

Yes, but I am not bound to believe what the Quran says, and if the Quran says the Crucifixion of Jesus didn't happen, but only "appeared" to be so, despite Christians, Jews, and Romans agreeing it happened, then that doesn't motivate me to start believing in the Quran.

[/quote]using John 20 however, one could make the claim that it was the gardener who was crucified as Jesus had assumed his appearance. [/QUOTE]

Except that the text explicitly shows it's Jesus.

and i would say that Islam is a Religion of logic

Historically Christians were the ones who appreciated reason and philosophy, while Muslims largely rejected it (Compare and contrast Thomas Aquinas to Al-Ghazzali.)

where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...

That is because Christian Doctrine is Divine. Only a man-made religion has everything comprehensible.

 

[Sojourn]

I see the message of Jesus/Moses and the rest in a continuum and in complete concert with Islam in course, law and practice

Accepting a continuum is difficult to grasp, these are some basic reasons:

The three key elements of Old Testament Judaism are Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice, none of which are found in Islam, but all of which are completed and perfected in Christianity. Just compare the Islamic concept of sacrifice to that of Judaism and you see an enormous gulf of difference.

Now with regards to Christianity a simple example is Jesus' prohibiting divorce. When the Jews had asked why Moses permitted them to divorce, Jesus replied it was because they were weak of heart, but that God's intention was that one man be married to one woman and that this bound not be broken. How am I to understand that 500 years later Muhammad would come and revoke Jesus' perfection of the law, only to permit divorce again?

How do you see a continuum, exactly?

 

[جوري]

I found this part the most amusing of all ..

Historically Christians were the ones who appreciated reason and philosophy, while Muslims largely rejected it (Compare and contrast Thomas Aquinas to Al-Ghazzali.)

So it wasn't Christianity that mired in the dark ages, while Islam was at the height of enlightenment? It wasn't pope Alexander IV that made several efforts to ban the books of Ibn Rushd? It wasn't Ibn Rushd that made it into Rafael's school of athens but some christian who believed that potatoes were the devil food and that were pointy shoes akin to being loose and that women were akin to animals as in not having souls?

Hilarious...

take pride in folks who make your god akin to a ******* and his mother a most holy woman a prostitute and that is your claim to authenticity of your religion if they acknowledge their existence all together:

Some historians go further. It is well known, and long a matter of controversy, that beginning in the early 19th century some historians disputed the existence of an historical Jesus at all. According to this theory, Jesus never existed and the early church fathers created him as a figure for their religion. The gospels are compilations of various legends that were attributed to this mythical character Jesus. Much ink has been spilled debating this theory, but there are some historians who accept this and go one step further. They identify the basis of the New Testament Jesus in the story of Yeshu Ben Pandira. This legendary figure, who was branded a heretic by Jewish leaders, founded a Jewish sect that inspired and influenced the early Christians. These early Christians then adopted the story of Yeshu Ben Pandira and modified it to fit into a later historical period and their own eclectic religious beliefs. [cf. R. Avraham Ibn Daud, Sefer Hakabbalah, 53; Sefer Hayuchasin, ibid.; Avraham Korman, Zeramim Vekitot Beyahadut, pp. 354-364].

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

meh.. whatever you have to believe to get going..

 

[جوري]

Accepting a continuum is difficult to grasp, these are some basic reasons:

That is rather because you are not a follower of a monotheistic religion, rather a hodgepodge of man made nonsense!

The three key elements of Old Testament Judaism are Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice, none of which are found in Islam, but all of which are completed and perfected in Christianity. Just compare the Islamic concept of sacrifice to that of Judaism and you see an enormous gulf of difference.

Those aren't the key elements of Judaism like with Islam I'd refrain from speaking on the Jewish behalf. however two of those elements are found in Islam.. priesthood is something of a christian invention, who seek intercession from anything under the sun other than God!

Now with regards to Christianity a simple example is Jesus' prohibiting divorce. When the Jews had asked why Moses permitted them to divorce, Jesus replied it was because they were weak of heart, but that God's intention was that one man be married to one woman and that this bound not be broken. How am I to understand that 500 years later Muhammad would come and revoke Jesus' perfection of the law, only to permit divorce again?

You'd have to establish authenticity of your bible yo begin with for such words to resonate with any form of truth and establish why they are so different from all monotheistic laws previously established not simply for Jews, but Sabeans, mandeans and all others of whom you have heard or haven't heard..
the bible makes it ok for a pious father to have an incestuous relationship with his two girls, it makes it ok to forgo Circumcision a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham, it makes it ok to eat pigs, it makes it ok to forgo the sabbath, it makes it ok to gamble and use use interest, it makes it ok to take idols for gods etc etc etc
I mean honestly need I list all the ways of where your religion has absolutely nothing to do with what God intended or monotheism all together?

How do you see a continuum, exactly?

I have already told you, your brand of Christianity has nothing to do with the original message, I fail to see which part of that is hard for you to understand? Those who leave your fairy tales behind and embrace Islam, br. Yusuf is actually one of those, sees the original message of Christianity as a continuum with Islam, Christianity as you know it is a continuum with paganism, I obviously can't expect you to find similarities, nor would I really want you too.. I want positively no association with fairy tales, from which Jesus is innocent..
whereas you worship effigies and dance before statues of a man/god and think you can sin because god died eating your sins for you, we believe :

3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Musa, 'Isa, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

all the best

 

[جوري]

by the way, I rather enjoyed the Jesus' perfection part.. where was that perfection when Martin Luther made him into thrice the adulterer?

all the best