Britain divided by Islam, survey finds

[CosmicPathos]

I completely agree.

I think higher education in general teaches tolerance, but it hardly teaches anyone what, say, Islam or Christianity is about. Interestingly those who enjoyed higher education generally are also more liberal and left-leaning. They are more open-minded on matters such as (homo)sexuality, more often supportive of things like abortion and overall less religious. The irony is that overall those higher educated claim to be less hostile towards Islam, yet in reality their beliefs are probably more at odds with, say, Islamic beliefs than those of more culturally conservative countrymen.

I mean, this is the very same educated 'liberal' crowd that revolted against the Church and Christianity in the middle of the last century.

So people who have no higher education, they are less likely to be tolerant? Of course the more secular educational institutions will hammer into the heads of its students that religion is superstition, they would become more "open minded." So such "less religiousness" is not due to the higher education they got but due to the implicit and invisible dogmatic ideas they were told to stick to while getting that higher education in a secular setting.

What a gross generalization. Majority of the youth of Pakistan, for example, which has higher education (Medical degrees, engineering degrees) is more or less equally religious as they were before starting those degree programs .... There are some fluctuations, but they might be insignificant at the moment within the context of a Pakistani society.

As soon as the society moves towards hedonism and higher in the hierarchy from needs to luxuries, it becomes atheistic. Education might play a role in changing one's status but that is not the conclusive factor. Wealth and relatively luxurious lifestyle, and arrogance for rejecting the Creator of all that exists are related. Surprising that I am told to believe the "perfect" logic that emanates from the brains which are not supposed to be "intelligently designed."

 

[Supreme]

I totally agree. The UK has lost Christianity, what annoys me most,is the likes of people from say the EDL say things like, "This is a Christian country, i don't want to see it turn into an Islamic state". Yet, you ask them are they practising Christians? and you get this stupid answer along the lines of "Well I'm Christian by default because I was Christend and I live in the UK, but i'm not religious and I don't really believe in God".

That annoys me too. 'Hey, we worship Jesus who told us to love our neighbour and not to judge or hurt sinners or to accept persecution and to respect everyone- don't let the beating up or destruction of shops fool you, we're good Christians, honest!'

That actually really gets me angry. If you want to proclaim this is a Christian nation, then fine. But practise what you preach.

This is not a Christian nation. There is no such thing as a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. But even if this nation did have 99% of people in its borders adhering to Christianity, it is still by definition a secular society. More fitting would be the term 'Christian majority nation', but even that is not excuse to be hostile towards Islam- indeed, it's an excuse to welcome people of other faiths and lands and love them as neighbours.

The fear is just a consequence of the understanding that there are divisions.

It's deeper than that; it's a fear of change, a fear of cultural assimiliations.

 

[Skavau]

Well seeing as how hedonistic a typical ''British'' life is I'm not surprised. Adultery (which is still not a crime btw), alcoholism and gambling are all the rage. So it's natural for those who pursue those courses of actions to feel threatend by something that completely denounces them.

In short: I don't actually care.

Do you not think this is a generalisation? At least it could be considered the logical fallacy of poisoning the well.

 

[Skavau]

Yeah, but how many people in the UK now are practising Christians? Most people would be like... "well, yeah... I guess I'm Christian". This isnt a guessing game. You either are or you aren't. My guess is not many are. I think we have to face the fact that an opening of a church is not given even a second glance. The opening of a mosque would be local headlines. Prejudice and ignorance.

You're absolutely right. Christianity is in terminal decline, but it still exists without much controversy in our culture purely because of its historical position.

 

[aamirsaab]

'Still' not a crime? Don't you mean 'not any more' a crime? Adultery was once a crime on these shores I believe, as was homosexuality and alcoholism and gambling. Heck, even Christmas was once illegal because it wasn't mentioned in the Bible. I suppose they're called 'dark ages' for a reason...

I actually didn't know that. Thanks for the info,

Do you not think this is a generalisation? At least it could be considered the logical fallacy of poisoning the well.

You're right: that was a generalisation (sorry, I was in a knee-jerk sort of mood). But I still don't care that Britian is divided on Islam.

 

[Trumble]

As soon as the society moves towards hedonism and higher in the hierarchy from needs to luxuries, it becomes atheistic. Education might play a role in changing one's status but that is not the conclusive factor. Wealth and relatively luxurious lifestyle, and arrogance for rejecting the Creator of all that exists are related. Surprising that I am told to believe the "perfect" logic that emanates from the brains which are not supposed to be "intelligently designed."

An interesting thesis, which I would dispute. It is certainly not true of the United States in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, for example. The move towards atheism has always principally been an intellectual one, exemplified by the 17th century 'Enlightenment', not a social one. There can be no 'arrogance' in 'rejecting' something you do not believe exists, only if you believe it does - in which case by definition you CANNOT be an atheist!

 

[Amadeus85]

'Still' not a crime? Don't you mean 'not any more' a crime? Adultery was once a crime on these shores I believe, as was homosexuality and alcoholism and gambling. Heck, even Christmas was once illegal because it wasn't mentioned in the Bible. I suppose they're called 'dark ages' for a reason...

Are You aware that in those times Europe had one king, Christ?

 

[Amadeus85]

I totally agree. The UK has lost Christianity, what annoys me most,is the likes of people from say the EDL say things like, "This is a Christian country, i don't want to see it turn into an Islamic state". Yet, you ask them are they practising Christians? and you get this stupid answer along the lines of "Well I'm Christian by default because I was Christend and I live in the UK, but i'm not religious and I don't really believe in God".

That actually really gets me angry. If you want to proclaim this is a Christian nation, then fine. But practise what you preach.

Edited to say: I don't mean to offend any of the Christians here, I'm sorry if I did.

VERY GOOD post. This should be read by every Englishmen who calls himself a patriot.

I'm sorry to say this but reformation killed christianity in UK, as well as in other northern european countries. Now we see the fruits of the rejection of Rome in England, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany...Materialism replaced any spirituality there, paganism and magick are on rise.

The fear of islam in UK is also a sign of compromitation of secular state and liberal christianity. The fact that 50 million Englanders are afraid of religion which has there about 2,5 million members is shameful to Englanders. And what are the guilts of brittish muslims? That they pray to God, visit temples regularly, avoid adultery, avoid alcoholism and that they have strong family values and have many children?

I think that Englanders and all europeans, including my nation, must really think deeply about those things, because in future it may turns out that we simply don't deserve to survive. And the funniest thing is that I know that many, many of us simply won't care whether europeans exist in next century or not. Many of us simply don't care about more things than their beer and tv.

The only chance for europeans is to come back to Catholic Church and accept again Christ as the King of Europe.

So you all know, how much chances we have .

 

[Donia]

'Still' not a crime? Don't you mean 'not any more' a crime? Adultery was once a crime on these shores I believe, as was homosexuality and alcoholism and gambling.

I thought it was once a crime also although I'm not sure to what extent punishment was actually enforced.

In my opinion, it would be a good idea to make adultery illegal. Two people stand before God and take vows to each other and most also make it legal. When these vows are broken of course that is for God to judge them first but I also believe that some people might think twice before committing such acts if there was an actual significant consequence involved.
There are some places where you can get in trouble legally if you spank your child!! But feel free to go out there and frolick around with whoever you want while your spouse is at home. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
I know this is a little off topic but just wanted to share my thoughts on that particular issue.

 

[Skavau]

VERY GOOD post. This should be read by every Englishmen who calls himself a patriot.

A shame. I'm not a patriot.

I'm sorry to say this but reformation killed christianity in UK, as well as in other northern european countries. Now we see the fruits of the rejection of Rome in England, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany...Materialism replaced any spirituality there, paganism and magick are on rise.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/best.html

Every single country in the top 10 happens to be secular, and most of them in Europe. Also, I highlighted the part in bold where you contradicted yourself. Materialism is not synonymous with paganism.

The fear of islam in UK is also a sign of compromitation of secular state and liberal christianity.

Yes.

And it is a very rational concern.

The fact that 50 million Englanders are afraid of religion which has there about 2,5 million members is shameful to Englanders. And what are the guilts of brittish muslims? That they pray to God, visit temples regularly, avoid adultery, avoid alcoholism and that they have strong family values and have many children?

I am not 'afraid' of religion. I am concerned and afraid about religious groups that try and impose their religion onto the political system.

Moreover, no, Islam is not treated with suspicion and fear here because of the things you listed. Please stop setting up reality as some ridiculous "us vs. them" dichotomy.

I think that Englanders and all europeans, including my nation, must really think deeply about those things, because in future it may turns out that we simply don't deserve to survive. And the funniest thing is that I know that many, many of us simply won't care whether europeans exist in next century or not. Many of us simply don't care about more things than their beer and tv.

I find this paragraph disturbing. Are you seeking to imply that the lives of Europeans and fate of Europe is worthless if they don't believe in God or continue as we are? Do you believe further, if so, that everyone's lives are worthless if they don't believe in God, or hold to a religious point of view?

 

[Supreme]

Are You aware that in those times Europe had one king, Christ?

...And then some. Are you serious? Catholic Christian nations were at war with each other almost every day. So much for being united under the Kingdom of Christ.

 

[Amadeus85]

...And then some. Are you serious? Catholic Christian nations were at war with each other almost every day. So much for being united under the Kingdom of Christ.

In Medieval? Not really, maybe after XVI century, yes, but not before. I dont say that Medival was free from mistakes, but the social reign of Christ The King during those times is a fact. All people agreed that every political power comes from God, now they believe that political power comes from the people. Medival was filled with religion to the fundaments. As human history is a attempt to get know God's plan towards human, in Medieval, people was so far closest to know that plan and to put it into practice. Every king kneeled before cross and accepted that Christ is the king of kings.

 

[Skavau]

In Medieval? Not really, maybe after XVI century, yes, but not before. I dont say that Medival was free from mistakes, but the social reign of Christ The King during those times is a fact. All people agreed that every political power comes from God, now they believe that political power comes from the people. Medival was filled with religion to the fundaments. As human history is a attempt to get know God's plan towards human, in Medieval, people was so far closest to know that plan and to put it into practice. Every king kneeled before cross and accepted that Christ is the king of kings.

When you have someone who honestly believes that humanity is superfluous and meaningless in comparison to the grandiosity of ruler-ship by clerics, how can you find common ground?

Sir, and I mean this (with no insult) - you don't have morality. You are not interested in morality. You have already said that the plight of humanity is meaningless compared to your desire to glorify God. Simple obedience to atrocity is merely a small affair when you consider this.