Britain is in 'moral decline'

[Muezzin]

I'd really like it if this thread didn't devolve into another 'X Religion VS Islam: Which killed more people, plants and cute furry animals?' thing.

Meh. For those who have read Machievelli, you know this is BS. Even in his time he humourously pointed out that regardless of the era, people always whined that the generation(s) era was better.

You see this all the time in any time period. Whining about how the soceity has become 'morally corrupt' while ignoring progresses made. Machievelli also points out that such thinking is dangerous as it allows foolish laws to be passed and idiots to be put in power in an effort to go back to the fictional 'golden age'. Whats funny is when said retarding of customs and progress happens, then people complain about it and glorify the age before.

Machiavelli also tells you how to take over a country in his times and that it's better to be feared than to be loved.

But anyway, yeah, that is correct. Didn't Neitzche also say something about this sort of thing? The Eternal Return of the Same or something?

In common English the principle can be understood, somewhat more crudely, as: 'Same *BEEP*, different day'.

My own personal view on the matter is that existence is continuous adaptation, rather than regression. Time moves faster if you're standing still, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn from the past. On the other hand, what worked in the past won't necessarily work in the present or the future, because each individual has different tastes, which influence and inform their decisions and reactions (this is why heated political debates are so hysterically pointless).

However, I believe there are core values (call them morals, ethics or whatever you like) that govern all humans to an extent. Different cultures or religions simply accenuate certain of these values over others, just as different people will naturally do according to their own life experience. I'm not going to argue the rights or wrongs of this, I'm just stating how I see things.

As to Britain being in moral decline - there seems to be something wrong, what with all the ineffective ASBO's (and destructively unruly chavs in general ), binge drinking, overcrowded prisons, terrorism etc. I dunno. Maybe I'm just naming moral panics constant throughout history. Funny thing, perception.

I'd also say that religion can indeed foster moral codes. Equally important is the presence of parental figures for children, if at all possible. A lot of kids go wrong because they lack either a father or mother figure to show them the way. I know life ain't perfect, or fair, but there it is.

 

[ahsan28]

Faith schools 'cherry picking'


Jamie Doward and Anushka Asthana
Sunday September 16, 2007
The Observer


Faith schools are 'cherry picking' too many children from affluent families and contributing to racial and religious segregation, according to the most extensive research of its kind, based on the government's own data.

The findings - which last night drew a fierce response from the Church of England - will reignite the debate about the role of religion in the education system and come as the government attempts to reassure critics that faith schools do not favour the selection of middle-class, white pupils.

'This research shows once and for all that so-called faith schools are simply private schools on the rates for those who know how to play the system,' said Terry Sanderson, the president of the National Secular Society.



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2170337,00.html

 

[Isambard]

I'd really like it if this thread didn't devolve into another 'X Religion VS Islam: Which killed more people, plants and cute furry animals?' thing.


Machiavelli also tells you how to take over a country in his times and that it's better to be feared than to be loved.

But anyway, yeah, that is correct. Didn't Neitzche also say something about this sort of thing? The Eternal Return of the Same or something?

In common English the principle can be understood, somewhat more crudely, as: 'Same *BEEP*, different day'.

My own personal view on the matter is that existence is continuous adaptation, rather than regression. Time moves faster if you're standing still, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn from the past. On the other hand, what worked in the past won't necessarily work in the present or the future, because each individual has different tastes, which influence and inform their decisions and reactions (this is why heated political debates are so hysterically pointless).

However, I believe there are core values (call them morals, ethics or whatever you like) that govern all humans to an extent. Different cultures or religions simply accenuate certain of these values over others, just as different people will naturally do according to their own life experience. I'm not going to argue the rights or wrongs of this, I'm just stating how I see things.

As to Britain being in moral decline - there seems to be something wrong, what with all the ineffective ASBO's (and destructively unruly chavs in general ), binge drinking, overcrowded prisons, terrorism etc. I dunno. Maybe I'm just naming moral panics constant throughout history. Funny thing, perception.

I'd also say that religion can indeed foster moral codes. Equally important is the presence of parental figures for children, if at all possible. A lot of kids go wrong because they lack either a father or mother figure to show them the way. I know life ain't perfect, or fair, but there it is.

I think you may be on to something...thou for a very ironic reason.

Simply put, Britain isnt going to get much better, and has already advanced beyond anything it was thruout its history. So why then the rise in idiocy? Boredom. Ppl no longer have to fear being poisened, tortured, killed, being stolen from etc.

So because people are bored from too much properity and peace, ppl find something to fill the void.

I can only imagine to what extreme a utopian society may achieve lol

 

[ahsan28]

I can only imagine to what extreme a utopian society may achieve lol

U mean attacking another country

 

[Isambard]

U mean attacking another country

I think you misread my post

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Machiavelli also tells you how to take over a country in his times and that it's better to be feared than to be loved.

Yep. The guy was a political genius. Read all about him here.

Didn't Neitzche also say something about this sort of thing? The Eternal Return of the Same or something?

Yep - the Eternal Recurrence of the Same. One of Nietzsche's more 'out there' teachings. He wasn't the first, though, as you can see in the link.

A quote from Edward Gibbon comes to mind on the topic of decline in societies (and let's face it, he should know):

There exists in human nature a strong propensity to depreciate the advantages, and to magnify the evils, of the present times.

- The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Chapter 31)

Peace

 

[Muezzin]

True, but that characteristic also tends to facilitate change.

Like that somewhat annoying Honda advert - 'Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something, make something better!'

 

[Isambard]

True, but that characteristic also tends to facilitate change.

Like that somewhat annoying Honda advert - 'Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something, make something better!'

What are worried about, is people changing things on the notion that the past was better when in reality it wasnt. That sort of thinking tends to lead to some very bad decisions and in some cases, the actual decline of the civilization.

 

[Pygoscelis]

As Trumble said, everybody thinks they live in a declining age and looks back fondly to the golden days (that never actually existed). Today will be "the golden age" to people 50 or so years from now.

Also, doesn't this whole thing hinge rather heavily on what we define as "moral"? I know that what many of you here would call imoral I find quite ok (ie, homosexuality, pornography, alcohol, music, etc) and that much of what is celebrated and pushed by you folks I would call imoral.

It is all in the eye of the beholder. And this survey appears to have asked "in your view are we in moral decline". A mere increase in cultural diversity will make that a yes, regardless of any objective changes.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

There are so many reasons as to why morality is on the decline in the UK, but there are people working towards change. An initiative called ‘Street Pastors was launched four years ago and it involves people of faith going out in the streets late at night amongst the drugs, violence and alcohol, trying to bring about some peace.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2834993.stm

Although this is a Christian response to social disorder I would also like to see other faith groups doing something similar. There seems a great need to try and reverse the trends in moral decline and the brake up of the family and community values. It involves a certain amount of risk taking being out on the streets after midnight amongst all the drunks. So far there are around a thousand people doing this up and down the country and the majority are women, and that is a point to ponder on.

In the spirit of praying for peace in our towns

Eric

 

[Karina]

But are people's opinions are generally shaped by the media though?

And what sells papers and keeps our attention? What creates "moral panic"?

Do the people surveyed have their own experiences of "moral decline" or are they purely influenced by what they have read in the paper that morning?

It is in our nature to notice all the bad news and not the good, and also to cast sweeping generalisations.

People talk so much less about the positive changes in UK attitudes to racism and prejudice, slavery, human rights abuses, ecological destruction.

:sunny:

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Karina;

But are people's opinions are generally shaped by the media though?

People’s opinions may be influenced by the media but I feel the greater problem, is a lack of faith in God. There appears to be little love or fear of God now, and if I can just give one example of how fear in God can be positive.

William Wilberforce stood up in parliament year after year for twenty years to try and abolish slavery in Britain, and every year he was defeated. That is until he stood up in parliament and said..

Every one of you will have to stand before God at some point, how will you justify your stance on slavery to God.

He won a landslide victory. If politicians feared God today that argument should have been used to prevent the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are all created by the same God and we have no right to harm God’s creation.

This lack of love for God and fear of God is also reflected in society, sadly we put very little value on marriage, the family and community. The challenge for faith communities is to try and restore God and morals in our society.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

 

[Trumble]

I actually find Wilberforce in that context a rather worrying example, as it has far more to do with manipulation than with the "fear of God". That has to come from inside.

Wilberforce, like so many others before and since, was playing on people's faith and fear to get them to do what he wanted them to do, which may or may not co-incide with what God might want. Of course, Wilberforce's motives were entirely noble and I think all of us would accept that God (or nearest equivalent for non-theists) does not want slavery. But remember religion and the Will of/fear of God has been used to justify slavery in the past, too.

There is a huge danger here; someone with sufficient authority invokes the Will of/fear of God as justification for what they want to happen. Nobody should have to think too hard to come up with examples of where this is a very bad thing indeed. People should be left alone with their faith and to act as their (God given) conscience dictates.. not pointed in the 'right' direction by those who assume their will and the Will of God are one and the same.

 

[ahsan28]

We are failing our children, and we are all culpable


Published: 15 October 2007


The cultural environment is contaminating the lives of young people.

Last week, once again, we were told of an overwhelmed younger generation and approaching crisis. The second arrow to puncture the balloon of indifference was a report by Cambridge Professor Robin Alexander which revealed that our primary schools are being torn apart by anti-social behaviour, crass popular culture, casual violence, deep unhappiness, and unnamed anxiety. The imposition of a testing environment was not helping, and these tinies had less nurturing than their peers round the world and felt uniquely vulnerable.

Unicef findings released in February this year were even more alarming. In a comparison of the 21 richest nations in the world, using 40 indicators including poverty, family relations and health, Britain's kids came bottom.

Last autumn, 110 prominent Britons, including children's authors Philip Pullman and Jacqueline Wilson, Baroness Greenfield, a professor of physiology, and others, wrote an open letter to The Telegraph expressing concern that British children are being poisoned by a culture of processed food, computer games, over-competitive education and unrestrained adult behaviour.

Britons grab defensive postures when confronted by bitter truths. This toxic nation still proclaims itself the greatest of countries. And our children fall like leaves from an over-watered plant, which is dying and will not recover.


Independent.UK

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/yasmin_alibhai_brown/article3061153.ece

 

[Muezzin]

British kids are thick and/or lazy, and their teachers are thick and/or lazy and/or underpaid. I don't know if that has anything to do with moral decline, but there it is.

Note to BNP friends/nutters: I am British. Go and lick your Nick Griffin posters.

 

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Iam seen as a traitor in Britain because of my revertion to Islam.

 

[Amadeus85]

Iam seen as a traitor in Britain because of my revertion to Islam.

I know that its oftopic but do your parents know that you are a muslim now? :?

 

[Isambard]

Iam seen as a traitor in Britain because of my revertion to Islam.

How's that?

 

[Isambard]

Iam seen as a traitor in Britain because of my revertion to Islam.

How's that?

 

[Qingu]

People’s opinions may be influenced by the media but I feel the greater problem, is a lack of faith in God. There appears to be little love or fear of God now, and if I can just give one example of how fear in God can be positive.

William Wilberforce stood up in parliament year after year for twenty years to try and abolish slavery in Britain, and every year he was defeated. That is until he stood up in parliament and said..

Every one of you will have to stand before God at some point, how will you justify your stance on slavery to God.

What a strange argument to make, since slavery is expressly allowed in both the Bible and the Quran.

The roots of the abolitionist movement are in secular humanism, not in religion.

If politicians feared God today that argument should have been used to prevent the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are all created by the same God and we have no right to harm God’s creation.

But again, look in both the Bible and the Quran and you will find no end of justifications to go to war against the unbelievers. In fact, the Bible is unique among religious and philosophical texts in its command to commit genocide (Deuteronomy 20:15, and the book of Joshua). Most wars throughout history were fought over religion in one way or another, both in Christendom and in Islam.

I always find it strange when religious people lament about a "decline in morals" in society. I think what they really are lamenting is a decline in religious belief.