Britain is in 'moral decline'

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interesting... between stalin, Mao Xedong, Saloth sar Enver Hoxa, sung I1-- I'd say atheists have had the highest justification to commit genocide..
what was it 15 million for Xedong, 20 million for stalin, 2 million for sar etc etc etc.. but who is really counting? I would have a recount not just for most wars but most casualties-- if human life meant anything I'd say Atheists are writing their own bible as of late...

cheers!
 
interesting... between stalin, Mao Xedong, Saloth sar Enver Hoxa, sung I1-- I'd say atheists have had the highest justification to commit genocide..
what was it 15 million for Xedong, 20 million for stalin, 2 million for sar etc etc etc.. but who is really counting? I would have a recount not just for most wars but most casualties-- if human life meant anything I'd say Atheists are writing their own bible as of late...

cheers!
I don't recall any of these figures killing people in the name of atheism.

Rather, they killed people in the name of their own brand of pseudo-religious dogmas.

Atheism is simply the lack of a certain kind of belief. Stalin and Mao did not believe in gods—they also did not believe in leprechauns or the tooth fairy, and yet nobody would say that "a-leprechaun-ism was responsible for 20 million deaths under Mao Zedong."
 
I always find that to be a refreshing excuse peddled by Ahtiests once they have a look at what their ilk have done-- don't you? Godless people have killed hordes and sure they've done it in the name of Atheism .. read up more especially on Enver Hoxha

cheers
 
I always find that to be a refreshing excuse peddled by Ahtiests once they have a look at what their ilk have done-- don't you? Godless people have killed hordes and sure they've done it in the name of Atheism .. read up more especially on Enver Hoxha

cheers
Again, I'm not sure why this counts as an "excuse" since I don't see how atheism influenced or rallied any of these atrocities.

Stalin and Mao killed people in the name of pseudo-Marxist mythology. Stalin in particular created a literal cult around the figure of Lenin, elevating him to the status of a demigod. Inasmuch as these people opposed religions, they did so because religions served as a counter-rallying-point to their own cultish ideologies.

And again: neither Stalin nor Mao nor Osama bin Ladin nor Pope Innocent the Third believed in leprechauns. All of these people were "a-leprechauns." Would you seriously claim that the lack of belief in leprechauns was behind the 9/11 attacks or the Third Crusade? Atheism, like a-leprechaunism, is not an ideology, it is the absence of a belief. I don't understand how you can pin any action on the absence of a belief. Perhaps you'd care to explain how this is possible?

I glanced at Hoxha's Wikipedia article and I'm not sure why you brought him up.
 
I leave with this Quote.. I get bored quickly with redundancy and exculpations.. and I dislike repeating myself!

1967 - The suppression of religion intensifies. As part of the Cultural and Ideological Revolution, Hoxha calls on students to embark on a struggle against "religious superstition". He declares that "the Religion of Albania is Albanianism". By May over two thousand churches, mosques, monasteries, and other religious institutions have been closed or converted to other uses.

Clerics of all faiths are imprisoned or forced to seek work in industry or agriculture. Decrees sanctioning organised religion are annulled.

Finally, Albanian proclaims itself as the world's first atheistic state.
 
I leave with this Quote.. I get bored quickly with redundancy and exculpations.. and I dislike repeating myself!
So this guy simultaneously says:

1. Albania is an atheistic state
2. The religion of Albania is Albanianism

Something tells me that atheists in Albania might not be convinced that Albania is an "atheistic state." From what I've read, it sounds like he was in fact propping up a new sort of religion, or at the very least a religion-like ideology, where dissenters from the dogmatic party line were punished.

In any case—I completely fail to see how atheism caused or even contributed to Hoxha's actions. What about the lack of a belief in gods do you think contributed to Hoxha's atrocities? I ask you again: how can a lack of a belief contribute to anything?

If Hoxha made Albania into "the world's first anti-astrology state" and outlawed astrology, punishing any astrologers with death, would you seriously argue that a lack of belief in astrology was the cause of his atrocities? I'd appreciate it if you could respond to these questions directly.
 
Do you deny there has been a marked increase of overall standard of living as secularism became more popular?

No... and I wouldn't propose, that it is because of secularism.. these are simply cyclical events.. there was a time when under Muslim empires a period of history was known as the age of enlightenment.. there was a time in ancient Samaria was the height of civilization .. there was a time when Mesopotamia was considered the very birth of several ancient civilizations.. there was a time when pharaonic, babylonic, Phoenician world were the zenith of cultivated.. there was a time when a Persian king Darius I was named the 'great' for a reason..

societies have their moments in the lime light and then have a decline.. there was a time when the small Island of Japan defeated big bear (Russia) 1905 .. pushing it in the fore front of world power... there was a time when England was the empire where the 'sun never set' look how they pale now to the U.S blair often tought of as 'Bush's poodle'.. at least that is how he was described when I visited three yrs ago...

In a nutshell.. I don't think religion or secularism has anything to do with it... and everything to do with corruption of men... If I wanted this to get really heated I'd say Atheist men as nothing holds them back.. but I'll just say men often justify their grounds with one brilliant piece of BS or another!!!!!!

cheers
 
No... and I wouldn't propose, that it is because of secularism.. these are simply cyclical events.. there was a time when under Muslim empires a period of history was known as the age of enlightenment.. there was a time in ancient Samaria was the height of civilization .. there was a time when Mesopotamia was considered the very birth of several ancient civilizations.. there was a time when pharaonic, babylonic, Phoenician world were the zenith of cultivated.. there was a time when a Persian king Darius I was named the 'great' for a reason..

societies have their moments in the lime light and then have a decline.. there was a time when the small Island of Japan defeated big bear (Russia) 1905 .. pushing it in the fore front of world power... there was a time when England was the empire where the 'sun never set' look how they pale now to the U.S blair often tought of as 'Bush's poodle'.. at least that is how he was described when I visited three yrs ago...

In a nutshell.. I don't think religion or secularism has anything to do with it... and everything to do with corruption of men... If I wanted this to get really heated I'd say Atheist men as nothing holds them back.. but I'll just say men often justify their grounds with one brilliant piece of BS or another!!!!!!

cheers
In one sense I agree with you. There has been a cycle of "pecking orders" with one group taking on the role of the "civilized/enlightened people" and other groups taking on the role of "barbarians." Empires throughout history have had a higher standard of living than surrounding areas and cultures, and this is as true today as it has always been.

But at the same time, I think you are missing something important in that there is a non-cyclical progression here. If given the choice—if you had a time machine—I doubt you would choose to go back in time to any of these ancient empires. I doubt you would choose to be even a Roman empress over your current life here, with your computers and your medicine and your humanist laws and your air-conditioning and heating.

Maybe I'm presuming too much. But looking back on the history of the world, I don't really see many places that I'd rather live than here. For most of history, slavery was an established moral fact, blasphemy was punishable by death, and you had to obey the whims of your political leaders or risk facing execution. And I won't even get in to women's rights. So even though we are still trapped in a cycle of pecking orders, I do think humanity has progressed morally—in the simple fact that most people would rather live now than at any other time.
 
In one sense I agree with you. There has been a cycle of "pecking orders" with one group taking on the role of the "civilized/enlightened people" and other groups taking on the role of "barbarians." Empires throughout history have had a higher standard of living than surrounding areas and cultures, and this is as true today as it has always been.

But at the same time, I think you are missing something important in that there is a non-cyclical progression here. If given the choice—if you had a time machine—I doubt you would choose to go back in time to any of these ancient empires. I doubt you would choose to be even a Roman empress over your current life here, with your computers and your medicine and your humanist laws and your air-conditioning and heating.

Maybe I'm presuming too much. But looking back on the history of the world, I don't really see many places that I'd rather live than here. For most of history, slavery was an established moral fact, blasphemy was punishable by death, and you had to obey the whims of your political leaders or risk facing execution. And I won't even get in to women's rights. So even though we are still trapped in a cycle of pecking orders, I do think humanity has progressed morally—in the simple fact that most people would rather live now than at any other time.



Are you kidding? I don't consider myself much of a stoic but I don't think I am spoiled enough that if one cataclysmic event took place, that I wouldn't be able to survive or even function...

I won't tell you I can be drafted back in time and remember how to synthesize acetaminophen given some raw material of liquid hydrocarbon and save the day... I don't think I'd do that modern day if I were stranded without medicine...

I really don't think a girl today is very different from a girl 1000 yrs ago?.. Maybe they didn't use GHD and spray on wax to get those same bouncy waves but some cotton rolls and a head wrap would grant same results, at least without the damage... I don't know.. priorities always remain the same... just the little intricacies and you'd be surprised how much you can do without... but that it a topic for another day..

I'd very much love to go back to not one but several periods of History.. Would love to see Petra in its glory.. or city of Erum before its destruction...I'd love to change events that took place.. and there are a ton of people I'd love to meet.. I can't imagine anything more robust and animating than re-living a period of history...

Not to be galling but we have just a 'barbaric' laws today as we did a thousand yrs ago.. You'll forgive me but I feel a great justice in Islamic jurisprudence.. and it is a topic well expansive that can't be delved into with a cut and paste.. as you know you don't go to law school in a day.. like wise Islamic jurisprudence in its entirety can't be discussed in a paragraph.. It is not meant to be oppressive .. Islam was abolishing to slavery and is evidenced not only by the number of slaves embracing Islam.. there is a very well noted incident where the leaders of the people was a slave set free, which I'll get to and quote some other time as it is 2:39Am and I am not quite as dextrous or lucid at this hour.. but will leave with this Quote from the noble Quran

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practise regular charity, to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing. 2:177

cheers and Gnight
 
Are you kidding? I don't consider myself much of a stoic but I don't think I am spoiled enough that if one cataclysmic event took place, that I wouldn't be able to survive or even function...
That's not what I meant. I think I could survive too, if modern society somehow collapsed, but that wasn't the question.

The question was, if you had the choice, would you rather live now or in some past society?

I really don't think a girl today is very different from a girl 1000 yrs ago?.. Maybe they didn't use GHD and spray on wax to get those same bouncy waves
Please. I know you're being a little sarcastic, but I hope I don't need to tell you that a woman's social position today is vastly different than it was 1,000 years ago, at least it is in most Western countries. For most of history, women were legally considered the property of men, first of their fathers and then of their husbands. With few exceptions, women had zero political and legal power and never received educations. Some forms of rape—such as marital rape—were not even conceived of as a crime.

I'd very much love to go back to not one but several periods of History.. Would love to see Petra in its glory.. or city of Erum before its destruction...I'd love to change events that took place.. and there are a ton of people I'd love to meet.. I can't imagine anything more robust and animating than re-living a period of history...
Don't get me wrong, I'd love more than anything to visit past civilizations, to learn from them and see what was really happening.

But I'm not talking about visiting like on vacation, I'm talking about living there permanently. Would you really want to spend the rest of your life in Petra or in 7th century Medina? You're used to a higher standard of living—and this "higher standard" entails much more than mere superficialities like hair treatments.

Not to be galling but we have just a 'barbaric' laws today as we did a thousand yrs ago..
Not nearly as many, I would argue.

I don't mean to suggest that our current laws are better for all cultures and all times. I think societies evolve bit by bit, and the laws are a part of that—I certainly don't think you can simply drop your laws and your political ideology onto an alien society and expect it to magically work better (as Bush apparently thought about Iraq).

But that said, I do think there are certain cultures that are simply better than others. "Better" is not a vague, subjective term here—it is measurable, and it is easy to measure. All you have to do is look at the number of people who choose to move from one culture to another.

Islam was abolishing to slavery
I wholeheartedly disagree. If Muhammad was serious about abolishing slavery then he would not have allowed it in the Quran. Christians make the same arguments about the Bible, which also expressly allows slavery. There is a reason that both Muslims and Christians held and traded in slaves for thousands of years, with no large abolitionist movements in either culture until the advent of secular humanism.

That slaves embraced Islam in no way means Islam is inherently abolitionist. In America, most slaves converted to Christianity. Why? Because their masters told them to. Many of their descendents are still fervent Christians today. While I admit I am not quite as familiar with Islam's history with slavery, I fail to see how it is much different.

And I'm off to bed now too. Good night!
 
Because iam white they think iam a suicide bomber all the time ...they make ticking noises at me aswell.

:D :happy: ... if they do that ticking noise again.... just keep silent for about 10 seconds... then with a loud sudden voice shout "BOOOOOM!" - I'm sure it will break the ice. :D

I believe we need to really break the ice. This is the challenge every Muslim (Revert) faces in these times. The enemy has demonize the face of our religion at the same time subliminally brainswashed most of humanity with the wrong value system.

As a revert, we need to reinvent the wheel so to speak. It's not easy to be a New Muslim... but - just have more SABR (patience)... just keep yur relationship to Allah strong and in tact... I guarantee you - You will never feel worried, anxiouss, fearful or grief anytime. Moreover, if they mock at us - who cares?...

Better be mocked by human, than earn the curse of Allah... let's all face thie challenge with a cheerful heart. and the countdown begins....:D

Allah Hafiz!
 
That's not what I meant. I think I could survive too, if modern society somehow collapsed, but that wasn't the question.
I believe I did say for a 'visit' I'd not want to be a part of Aad or Thamud.. old Petra and Erum cities known for decadence and moral corruption and be corrupt along with them..
The question was, if you had the choice, would you rather live now or in some past society?
I wouldn't mind so long as it is Islamic and I of course a Muslim!


Please. I know you're being a little sarcastic, but I hope I don't need to tell you that a woman's social position today is vastly different than it was 1,000 years ago, at least it is in most Western countries. For most of history, women were legally considered the property of men, first of their fathers and then of their husbands. With few exceptions, women had zero political and legal power and never received educations. Some forms of rape—such as marital rape—were not even conceived of as a crime.
I think a many women still have the misfortune to be married to batterers modern day.. It has more to do with the nature of some men than the will of some women. I don't think I'd be any different a person then than I am today in an Islamic soceity.. you should read about women in Islam instead of focusing on the bad news that made it, you should focus on the good news that didn't?


Don't get me wrong, I'd love more than anything to visit past civilizations, to learn from them and see what was really happening.
Me too.. I think the 'pioneer' era is behind us.. how many 16 year olds do you know have mastered engineering like say Bernini or Borromini? It is rather sad the state of affairs of the world... TV may have taken us forward.. but in many ways it has taken us backwards if you stop and think about it.. same for internet.. everyone is an insta scholar from a google search.. How many people do you know actually sit down and give some thought to what they think or write before loaning credence or quoting a questionable website for a source... a sad state indeed the affairs of our modern world....

Also I'd be very careful speaking for women in general... Most of my female colleagues already have a graduate education and about 3/4 of them are on antidepressants.. some where along the way, society's expectation have forced them to give up so much of what they should be naturally given and endowed.Education in all its levels should be granted to both sexes, but becoming the opposite sex in the process is a sad price to pay for it!

But I'm not talking about visiting like on vacation, I'm talking about living there permanently. Would you really want to spend the rest of your life in Petra or in 7th century Medina? You're used to a higher standard of living—and this "higher standard" entails much more than mere superficialities like hair treatments.

Not Petra but certainly Medina.. I am sure they had better more natural 'herbal' hair treatments back then that didn't entail that every woman should go for hair dye number 5 with p-Phenylenediamine, Toluene-2,5-Diaminesulfate ,to end up with that same homogenous shade of orange brass, even on women whose skin tone and hair texture shouldn't appropriate such a change... What is wrong with natural endowment and the herbs of the earth?



I don't mean to suggest that our current laws are better for all cultures and all times. I think societies evolve bit by bit, and the laws are a part of that—I certainly don't think you can simply drop your laws and your political ideology onto an alien society and expect it to magically work better (as Bush apparently thought about Iraq).
This is a long expansive topic and I said I wouldn't get into Islamic Jurisprudence on a forum.. partially because I am not an Islamic scolar and partly because there are intricacies that we'll have to omit out of ignorance!

But that said, I do think there are certain cultures that are simply better than others. "Better" is not a vague, subjective term here—it is measurable, and it is easy to measure. All you have to do is look at the number of people who choose to move from one culture to another.
This has to do more with socio-economic and geo-political situations of the world, and very little to do with religion.


I wholeheartedly disagree. If Muhammad was serious about abolishing slavery then he would not have allowed it in the Quran. Christians make the same arguments about the Bible, which also expressly allows slavery. There is a reason that both Muslims and Christians held and traded in slaves for thousands of years, with no large abolitionist movements in either culture until the advent of secular humanism.
I think recorded history paints a different picture for us.. I can't speak for christianity that is something you'll have to advert to our christian members...
from the Quran however I quote
Allah (SWT) says in Surat Al-Hujurat, "O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is he who has most Taqwa among of you. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware." Noble Qur'an (49:13)
With this verse, Islam declares equality among people as one human race, one humanity, that is because Islam respect a human for being a human not for any other reason; Islam does not distinguish between two races, or two groups of people, or between two colors, and the Prophet Muhammad (saw) addressed the people signifying that concept during the last Hajj pilgrimage, saying: "O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous."

"O Messenger of Allah, I have neither wealth nor beauty; nor I have a noble descent or lineage. Who will marry me? And which woman likes to be wife of a poor, short, black and ugly man like me?"

"O Jowaibir! God has changed the individual's worth through Islam. Many people were high-placed in the pre-Islamic society and Islam brought them down. Many were despised non-entities and Islam bestowed them with honor and high rank and brought them up. Islam abolished the un-Islamic discrimination and pride of lineage. Now all people irrespective of their color and origin are equal. Nobody has superiority over others but through piety and obedience to Allah. Among the Muslims, only that person would be higher than YOU whose virtues and deeds are better than you. Now do as I tell you."

These words were exchanged one day between the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and Jowaibir when the Prophet Muhammad (saw) came to see the Companions of the Suffa (Ashab al-Suffa).
One of many.. so I suggest rather than reading Pipes or some 'Humanist manifesto' you actually read about the religion you wish to devalue.. in the very least going to the source and reading Islamic books would dispel the myths for you?

While I admit I am not quite as familiar with Islam's history with slavery

I will accept that through the other extraneous details...

thank you

Peace!
 
I wholeheartedly disagree. If Muhammad was serious about abolishing slavery then he would not have allowed it in the Quran. Christians make the same arguments about the Bible, which also expressly allows slavery. There is a reason that both Muslims and Christians held and traded in slaves for thousands of years, with no large abolitionist movements in either culture until the advent of secular humanism.

Islam came at a time when slavery was deeply entrenched in the society, so Islam worked towards the gradual elimination of slavery.
  • Islam encouraged the emancipating of slaves; The Qur'an does so in many places: 4:92, 5:89, 58:3, 90:13, 24:33, 9:60, 2:177, 2:221, 4:25, 4:36.
The Prophet said: "A person who frees a Muslim slave, Allah will deliver every one of his limbs from the fire of Hell in return for each of the limbs of the slave (Sahîh Bukhârî, and Sahîh Muslim)
Shaykh Abu Bakr Al-Jazâ'iry writes:
Islam orders making an agreement to facilitate a slave in buying back his freedom if he requests such an agreement, and it encourages helping him in that with shares or wealth. Allah the Almighty said:
And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation) give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allah which He has bestowed upon you. (Qur'an 24:33)

(Al-Jaza'iry, Minhaj Al-Muslim, vol. 2, p.551)
The Prophet said: "If any of you have a slave girl, whom he gives good education and excellent training, and then he emancipates her and marries her, he shall have a two-fold reward. " (Sahîh Bukhârî)
  • Islam eliminated and restricted the sources of slavery, prohibiting the enslavement of free people, the Prophet said:
The Prophet said, "Allah says, 'I will be against three persons on the Day of Resurrection: [...] One who sells a free person (as a slave) and eats the price (Sahîh Bukhari)
"There are three people whose prayers are not accepted. And one of these three is a man who enslaves a free person (Rajulun iitabada muharraran)" (Sunan Abî Dawûd)


More @ Slavery and Islam


That slaves embraced Islam in no way means Islam is inherently abolitionist. In America, most slaves converted to Christianity. Why? Because their masters told them to. Many of their descendents are still fervent Christians today. While I admit I am not quite as familiar with Islam's history with slavery, I fail to see how it is much different.



African Slaves and Islam 1/2

African Slaves and Islam 2/2
 
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Islam came at a time when slavery was deeply entrenched in the society, so Islam worked towards the gradual elimination of slavery.
  • Islam encouraged the emancipating of slaves; The Qur'an does so in many places: 4:92, 5:89, 58:3, 90:13, 24:33, 9:60, 2:177, 2:221, 4:25, 4:36.
The Prophet said: "A person who frees a Muslim slave, Allah will deliver every one of his limbs from the fire of Hell in return for each of the limbs of the slave (Sahîh Bukhârî, and Sahîh Muslim)
Shaykh Abu Bakr Al-Jazâ'iry writes:
Islam orders making an agreement to facilitate a slave in buying back his freedom if he requests such an agreement, and it encourages helping him in that with shares or wealth. Allah the Almighty said:
And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation) give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allah which He has bestowed upon you. (Qur'an 24:33)

(Al-Jaza'iry, Minhaj Al-Muslim, vol. 2, p.551)
The Prophet said: "If any of you have a slave girl, whom he gives good education and excellent training, and then he emancipates her and marries her, he shall have a two-fold reward. " (Sahîh Bukhârî)
  • Islam eliminated and restricted the sources of slavery, prohibiting the enslavement of free people, the Prophet said:
The Prophet said, "Allah says, 'I will be against three persons on the Day of Resurrection: [...] One who sells a free person (as a slave) and eats the price (Sahîh Bukhari)
"There are three people whose prayers are not accepted. And one of these three is a man who enslaves a free person (Rajulun iitabada muharraran)" (Sunan Abî Dawûd)


More @ Slavery and Islam






African Slaves and Islam 1/2

African Slaves and Islam 2/2
So why were Islamic/Muslim Countries the last to outlaw slavery? :hmm:
 
So why were Islamic/Muslim Countries the last to outlaw slavery? :hmm:

can you show me the info?

If you visit those links you will see islam came when slavery was already part of the pagan society. Islam worked towards eliminating it. Only new "slaves" were what you refer to as prisoners of war, nothing like Europeans who went to another land to take free people and force them into slavery.

btw, slavery still exists in US today. Look at how many people are in prison working for a nickle an hour doing their "time". Welcome to modern day slavery...
 
can you show me the info?

If you visit those links you will see islam came when slavery was already part of the pagan society. Islam worked towards eliminating it. Only new "slaves" were what you refer to as prisoners of war, nothing like Europeans who went to another land to take free people and force them into slavery.

btw, slavery still exists in US today. Look at how many people are in prison working for a nickle an hour doing their "time". Welcome to modern day slavery...
1952 Qatar abolishes slavery
1962 Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery
1962 Yemen abolishes slavery
1963 United Arab Emirates abolishes slavery
1970 Oman abolishes slavery
1980 Mauritania abolishes slavery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
btw, slavery still exists in US today.

Of course if you redefine terms and twist them you can make any point you want. A wife is a slave to some. How many other twisted analogies do you want? :(
 

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