Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterbury

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Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

i am curious, more of less of a failure than the forced assimilation found in france?
I didn't realize there's forced assimialtion in France.
But if there is, I guess my answer would have to be I'm not sure.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Yep, multiculturalism proved to be pretty much a failure.

Erm you do realize that i am from Australia and multiculturalism worked pretty well here. So is your argument that the multicultural model in UK failed or that multiculturalism per se failed?
I didn't realize there's forced assimialtion in France.
But if there is, I guess my answer would have to be I'm not sure.
Well it depends if you consider forcing people to use ethnic French names and a bunch of other psudo-socialist policies.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Erm you do realize that i am from Australia and multiculturalism worked pretty well here. So is your argument that the multicultural model in UK failed or that multiculturalism per se failed?

Well it depends if you consider forcing people to use ethnic French names and a bunch of other psudo-socialist policies.
It failed in countries that let massive the influx of uneducated foreign popualtion. Australia and the US are among the few countries that it didnt fail, I guess primarily because of their emmigration policies as well as mentality, everyones an immigrant there..
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

i am curious, more of less of a failure than the forced assimilation found in france?

Definitely France did better job than UK. In France terroristic attack such as the one from London '05 would rather not happen. In France political islamism is almost non existing, the french muslims in majority have similar attitudes like non muslim majority.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Erm you do realize that i am from Australia and multiculturalism worked pretty well here. So is your argument that the multicultural model in UK failed or that multiculturalism per se failed?

What about Cronulla riots?
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

It failed in countries that let massive the influx of uneducated foreign popualtion. Australia and the US are among the few countries that it didnt fail, I guess primarily because of their emmigration policies as well as mentality, everyones an immigrant there..

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)

I don't think there are any countries in Europe where you are not free to name your children. What law in France are you referring too?
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)

It is also an issue of scale as well though. Muslim communities in the US and Australia are much smaller than in most of Europe, including the UK but especially France. In the US Muslim immigrants are generally fairly wealthy as well, their average income is above the national average even.

I agree with you though that as far as integration is concerned, the French approach has been even worse than in the rest of Europe. I don't believe the French approach is representative for Europe though. The whole mess with the riots in Paris a few years ago is unique to France and it is pretty much unheard of in any other European country.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)
Well, should we change our identity so immigrants would feel accepted?
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

People seem to be projecting their perceptions of certain groups who oppose immigration in Germany, France, Sweden, America, Australia etc, onto the groups in the UK.

This is flawed. British culture is not exactly the same as those other countries, and thus the motives and reactions of its people are not the same either.

In the UK, anti-immigration groups are not necessarily ethnocentric, though it certainly manifests in extremists. Rather, if we are to disparage them, we would call such groups xenophobes - they don't care what you look like; if you're foreign, they don't like you. You could be white or brown, but if you're from abroad, certain types will hate you based on that fact alone.

In the UK, all these other complaints ('they steal our jobs'/'they ruin our culture' etc) tend to stem from this xenophobia. Even skinheads enjoy a curry.

I'm not saying all British people who criticise immigration are extremists or xenophobes or both. I'm talking just about the ones the Archbishop seems worried about.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

I don't think there are any countries in Europe where you are not free to name your children. What law in France are you referring too?

The last in france, changed in the late 80's or early 90's meant that you had to choose from a list of pre-approved "French" names. And recently there has been a problem with North Africans who were named under that law who want to change their names, but the judges mostly don't allow it.

It is also an issue of scale as well though. Muslim communities in the US and Australia are much smaller than in most of Europe, including the UK but especially France. In the US Muslim immigrants are generally fairly wealthy as well, their average income is above the national average even.

I agree with you though that as far as integration is concerned, the French approach has been even worse than in the rest of Europe. I don't believe the French approach is representative for Europe though. The whole mess with the riots in Paris a few years ago is unique to France and it is pretty much unheard of in any other European country.

1. Are you making an argument that muslim immigration is somehow different to say Chinese?

2. yes, i know the French are a bunch of extremists(in terms of secularism) but the point about the nature of European identity still stands.

Well, should we change our identity so immigrants would feel accepted?

You have 2 options, have more babies or change.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

1 riot in..... like 40 years?
It wasn't even a proper riot.

I think that it was serious, I saw the videos from Cronulla on YouTube. Hundreds of whites hunting for everyone looking like arabs, it looked serious and shocking. Of course that it didnt happen 40 years ago, as it is connected with the asian immigration, which began to be so numerous in the last 15 years, am I right? Whatsthepoint is right, Australia, as well as USA are nations of immigrants so its not so sensitive for them. But in Europe its different, here our forefathers lived in our countries for more than 1500 years.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

I think that it was serious, I saw the videos from Cronulla on YouTube. Hundreds of whites hunting for everyone looking like arabs, it looked serious and shocking. Of course that it didnt happen 40 years ago, as it is connected with the asian immigration, which began to be so numerous in the last 15 years, am I right? Whatsthepoint is right, Australia, as well as USA are nations of immigrants so its not so sensitive for them. But in Europe its different, here our forefathers lived in our countries for more than 1500 years.

Right, you saw something on youtube so your an expert now. Nah don't listen to me, i only live in the city that it happened in, and i just happen to be studying it as part of my uni degree....

And no the difference is what i said above. Options are;
A. start making more babies, or
B. Change age old European attitudes to race or
C. have the economy die

its not that hard.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Right, you saw something on youtube so your an expert now. Nah don't listen to me, i only live in the city that it happened in, and i just happen to be studying it as part of my uni degree....

I saw what I saw, and it did look shocking. Same as the race riots in the early 90's in L.A, or race riots in Holland after van Gogh death. It happens becaue of multiculturalism, which even the european liberals nowadays call as mistake.

And no the difference is what i said above. Options are;

A. start making more babies, or

Its possible, look at France, Sweden, Holland,

B. Change age old European attitudes to race or

Which equals to let hundred thousands of people from other part of the world to settle on european soil? The natural reaction of normal people is resist.

C. have the economy die

The european economy is not bad,You should be more optimistic.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

A. start making more babies, or
B. Change age old European attitudes to race or
C. have the economy die
D. Import workers without changing our attitudes and deport the troubled ones from time to time.
Of course, I'd rather have harmony.
The problem is, when economic problems arise, everyone blames someone when they should be blaming themselves. Right wing parties blame immigrants, leftists blame the rightists, immigrants blame the state
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

The last in france, changed in the late 80's or early 90's meant that you had to choose from a list of pre-approved "French" names. And recently there has been a problem with North Africans who were named under that law who want to change their names, but the judges mostly don't allow it.

From what I know only "offensive" names are banned and there are no "pre-approved" lists of allowed names you have to choose from. But what point are you trying to make exactly? That Muslim parents can't give Muslim names to their children? I mean, that clearly isn't the case as Muslim names like Muhammed, Fatima, Abdullah and whatnot are very very common in France. There might be issues with names like "Jihad", but I think those are exceptions. You most certainly don't have to choose an "ethnic French" name for your child!

There is some more info on this on: http://www.affection.org/prenoms/loi.html (in french)

It explicitly states that there is no official list you have to choose from.

1. Are you making an argument that muslim immigration is somehow different to say Chinese?

Absolutely, not all cultures and thus immigrants are the same. I think Muslims have a much more unyielding and dominant culture, because it is anchored in their religion. A religion that is supposed to be immutable and at the same time very much controls many aspects of a persons life (in other words, the religion to a large extend IS the culture). Furthermore within Islam distancing oneself from the religion is generally frowned upon.

I think this severely hampers the chances of Muslim immigrants and their children from assimilating into the bigger culture. It isn't impossible, and there might be a degree of integration, but I think Muslims will always remain a clearly visible and distinct social group, one that will not fade away over time. I think some immigrant groups are more likely to integrate because they are, for example, same culture, same religion and unfortunately also same 'race'. (Example: Italians in the Netherlands). Others are less likely, because they have a way of life that is resilient enough to withstand the dominant culture in a country. I think this is the case with Muslim.

2. yes, i know the French are a bunch of extremists(in terms of secularism) but the point about the nature of European identity still stands.

Perhaps, but we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush here. As Muezzin also noted, the UK does not really stand in that same 'ethnic nationalist' tradition as, say, the Germans. And the French, with their radical secularism and statism, are again very much distinct from, say, the Dutch tradition of 'pillarisation', whereby each social group (including Muslims) has its own schools, TV channels, newspapers, sport clubs and whatnot.
 
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Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

From what I know only "offensive" names are banned and there are no "pre-approved" lists of allowed names you have to choose from. But what point are you trying to make exactly? That Muslim parents can't give Muslim names to their children? I mean, that clearly isn't the case as Muslim names like Muhammed, Fatima, Abdullah and whatnot are very very common in France. There might be issues with names like "Jihad", but I think those are exceptions. You most certainly don't have to choose an "ethnic French" name for your child!

There is some more info on this on: http://www.affection.org/prenoms/loi.html (in french)

It explicitly states that there is no official list you have to choose from.

There was before. It was overturned when people realised that someone's name isn't going to have any impact on their assimilation/integration.

Absolutely, not all cultures and thus immigrants are the same. I think Muslims have a much more unyielding and dominant culture, because it is anchored in their religion. A religion that is supposed to be immutable and at the same time very much controls many aspects of a persons life (in other words, the religion to a large extend IS the culture). Furthermore within Islam distancing oneself from the religion is generally frowned upon.

I think this severely hampers the chances of Muslim immigrants and their children from assimilating into the bigger culture. It isn't impossible, and there might be a degree of integration, but I think Muslims will always remain a clearly visible and distinct social group, one that will not fade away over time. I think some immigrant groups are more likely to integrate because they are, for example, same culture, same religion and unfortunately also same 'race'. (Example: Italians in the Netherlands). Others are less likely, because they have a way of life that is resilient enough to withstand the dominant culture in a country. I think this is the case with Muslim.

i work with facts not "i thinks".

Perhaps, but we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush here. As Muezzin also noted, the UK does not really stand in that same 'ethnic nationalist' tradition as, say, the Germans. And the French, with their radical secularism and statism, are again very much distinct from, say, the Dutch tradition of 'pillarisation', whereby each social group (including Muslims) has its own schools, TV channels, newspapers, sport clubs and whatnot.

Funny, ive yet to find one European country that describes sons and daughters of migrants with the same name as those of non immigrant background.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

There was before. It was overturned when people realised that someone's name isn't going to have any impact on their assimilation/integration.

Right, so there are no European countries that forces 'ethnic names' down immigrants throats. I'm glad we cleared that up ;).

Interestingly there was a whole row over naming lists over here in the Netherlands last year, because Morocco still demands that the children of the children of immigrants who came here over 40 years ago respect an official 'Moroccan name list' when naming their newborns.

i work with facts not "i thinks".

Haha, very well. Please don't hesitate to share those facts with me :D.

I believe the facts tell us that immigrants who come from a significantly different background will have a harder time assimilating into the bigger culture, especially if their own minority culture is rooted in something as immutable and rigid as a religion.

But what is your position exactly? The one that is based on 'facts' of course :p. That an immigrant is an immigrant and any one group of immigrants will have as easy a time as another to integrate? You don't believe a German moving the the Netherlands will have an easier time and is more likely to assimilate than someone from the Inner Mongolia? That, say, a Christian immigrant will have an easier time integrating into a society that based on Christian values?

In my opinion, there are many factors that influence the chances of integration and assimilation by an immigrant group and one of them is their cultural and religious background. But of course that isn't the only one! The policies and culture of the 'receiving' country also matter of course.

Funny, ive yet to find one European country that describes sons and daughters of migrants with the same name as those of non immigrant background.

And this little tidbit of information tells you what exactly? That all European countries have a similar tradition when dealing with immigration? I think you are very much mistaken if you believe that. Oops, here I go again with the "I think"! My apologies :P. I just don't see how you can dismiss clear factual differences in approach in different European countries with this one supposed 'fact'.

It is easy to blame this all on government policy, but fact of the matter is that the children of immigrants also maintain and cultivate this identity that links them to their original country.
 
Re: Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterb

Right, so there are no European countries that forces 'ethnic names' down immigrants throats. I'm glad we cleared that up ;).

Interestingly there was a whole row over naming lists over here in the Netherlands last year, because Morocco still demands that the children of the children of immigrants who came here over 40 years ago respect an official 'Moroccan name list' when naming their newborns.

No, there was a policy and today those people who were born during that policy still have "French" names, and can't change them.

Haha, very well. Please don't hesitate to share those facts with me .

I believe the facts tell us that immigrants who come from a significantly different background will have a harder time assimilating into the bigger culture, especially if their own minority culture is rooted in something as immutable and rigid as a religion.

But what is your position exactly? The one that is based on 'facts' of course . That an immigrant is an immigrant and any one group of immigrants will have as easy a time as another to integrate? You don't believe a German moving the the Netherlands will have an easier time and is more likely to assimilate than someone from the Inner Mongolia? That, say, a Christian immigrant will have an easier time integrating into a society that based on Christian values?

In my opinion, there are many factors that influence the chances of integration and assimilation by an immigrant group and one of them is their cultural and religious background. But of course that isn't the only one! The policies and culture of the 'receiving' country also matter of course.

My example was Chinese because they follow different religions, are as likely to form ghettos, and are not part of the same culture.

And this little tidbit of information tells you what exactly? That all European countries have a similar tradition when dealing with immigration? I think you are very much mistaken if you believe that. Oops, here I go again with the "I think"! My apologies :P. I just don't see how you can dismiss clear factual differences in approach in different European countries with this one supposed 'fact'.

It is easy to blame this all on government policy, but fact of the matter is that the children of immigrants also maintain and cultivate this identity that links them to their original country.

Who said i blame the gov't? I blame Europeans and their culture.
 

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