Building Bridges

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: building bridges

Hi Prime
I love the intention of this thread, so my question is not to take that down, but rater out of curiosity.
So my question:
You say you believe in one God. So what does trinity mean to you? I see a lot of christians taking that pretty litterlary. You say we both acknowledge Jezus (p.b.u.h.) as a prophet of that God, does that mean you don't see him as a deity or part of a deity, a savior. for me, savior suggests one who has the power to save, forgive. So those two statements seem a lil' bit contradicting to me. Just asking though, nothing personal

 

[Eric H]

Re: building bridges

Greetings and peace Steve,

So what does trinity mean to you?

There are a number of passages in the bible that describe Christ as being one with the Father (God), these passages describe unity and relationships, and I believe that their purpose is to inspire greater relationships for mankind.

Could Gods greatest good nature be summed up through the greatest commandments? Can the words of the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father?

The Father loves all that he is and all that he does with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF?
.
Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF?

Can the Father love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

To test the power of these words simply ask these questions.

If the Fathers love for himself is perfect and complete, how can he then love Christ or us MORE than he loves himself?

Can the Father love Christ infinitely more than he loves himself?
Does the Father love each one of us less than he loves himself?

In the spirit of searching for greater relationships

Eric

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: building bridges

There are a number of passages in the bible that describe Christ as being one with the Father (God), these passages describe unity and relationships, and I believe that their purpose is to inspire greater relationships for mankind.

Yes I'm aware of that, that's why I asked Prime, because from my point of view saying you believe in the unity of God and saying you are a christian at thesame time is a lil' bit contradicting.

Could Gods greatest good nature be summed up through the greatest commandments?

No I think it's more then that. That that wouldn't suffice as sommation.

Can the words of the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father?

Well no, but that doesn't help either one of us in this conversation now does it

The Father loves all that he is and all that he does with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

Well personally I don't completely support the idea of unconditional love. I think God loves the good things people do and dislikes the bad things that people do, but how he feels about people in general, only God knows.

The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF?
Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF?
Can the Father love each and every one of us as he loves himself?
To test the power of these words simply ask these questions.
If the Fathers love for himself is perfect and complete, how can he then love Christ or us MORE than he loves himself?
Can the Father love Christ infinitely more than he loves himself?
Does the Father love each one of us less than he loves himself?

outweighing amounts of love is a tricky thing. Just because one loves something else in a greater measure doesn't mean that the first thing is loved lesser.

 

[PrIM3]

Re: One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood

I would like to move this over to the other board... the bridge board that I created so we don't fuse these up together. ok?

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

Hi Prime
I love the intention of this thread, so my question is not to take that down, but rater out of curiosity.
So my question:
You say you believe in one God. So what does trinity mean to you? I see a lot of christians taking that pretty litterlary. You say we both acknowledge Jezus (p.b.u.h.) as a prophet of that God, does that mean you don't see him as a deity or part of a deity, a savior. for me, savior suggests one who has the power to save, forgive. So those two statements seem a lil' bit contradicting to me. Just asking though, nothing personal

I see isa or Jesus as someone who is great someone I can never be even if I try to be sometimes.

I see what you're saying now, but we believe to submit to God, you have to submitt to his rules, and the only rules we know God has sent that haven't been changed is the Qur'an, so the way you can truly submit to God and be a muslim and follow his teachings is by following the Qur'an and teachings of Muhammed SAW, which would also have been the same as to what Jesus PBUH would have lived by, we don't believe everything jesus is quoted to have said is what he actually spoke, since we believe Bibles been changed so many times, so we don't believe you can submit to God unless through Prophet Muhammed SAW, obviously you don't agree with these views

I do submit to God but through Jesus.
according to Jesus in Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets.
Murder-- according to Jesus and the 6th commandment it says thou shalt not kill.
then adultery- Jesus states that we should not commit adultery just like in the 7th commandment you shall not commit adultery.
then Jesus states that you shall love your Lord God with all your soul mind and heart just like in the 1st commandment you shall have no other gods before me.

please tell me which one of these are you not suppose to follow?
I am sorry if I sound rude.. but what I am trying to point out here just like you believe you are suppose to live a sin free live we are also called to do the same.. if we weren't then the commandments wouldn't be here.

 

[Muhammad]

Re: building bridges

Greetings PrIM3,

Earlier, you said:

according to the Spider 29:46 we both believe in the One true God

thanks and God bless.

Then you clarified this for yourself when you quoted:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allāh is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allāh – Allāh has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. [Al-Ma'idah 5:72]

So this means that while we do ultimately have the same God, you have certain beliefs about Him which cannot be considered as being acceptable nor qualify you as a Muslim.

I do submit to God but through Jesus.

An important principle to understand is that when the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) came, God prescribed for him a law which abrogated all previous laws that God ordained for His various servants of the different ages. Hence we do not look to the law of Jesus but rather the law of Muhammad, peace be upon them both. Of course, I have assumed here that you meant you submit through Jesus in the sense that you follow his commands as a Messenger.

I am sorry if I sound rude.. but what I am trying to point out here just like you believe you are suppose to live a sin free live we are also called to do the same.. if we weren't then the commandments wouldn't be here.

We believe it is impossible to live a sin free life since human beings are created weak and are not perfect in that sense. If we did not commit sins, there would be no need for Hell or a Judgement to take place.

I hope I have clarified any confusion

Peace.

 

[Shadow]

Re: building bridges

This is a good thread and i understand the intention

peace not war

eace: eace:

and now I will use an emoticon that is hadly ever used in this forum

:cresentbl

nice

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

Greetings PrIM3,

Earlier, you said:



Then you clarified this for yourself when you quoted:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allāh is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allāh – Allāh has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. [Al-Ma'idah 5:72]

So this means that while we do ultimately have the same God, you have certain beliefs about Him which cannot be considered as being acceptable nor qualify you as a Muslim.


An important principle to understand is that when the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) came, God prescribed for him a law which abrogated all previous laws that God ordained for His various servants of the different ages. Hence we do not look to the law of Jesus but rather the law of Muhammad, peace be upon them both. Of course, I have assumed here that you meant you submit through Jesus in the sense that you follow his commands as a Messenger.

We believe it is impossible to live a sin free life since human beings are created weak and are not perfect in that sense. If we did not commit sins, there would be no need for Hell or a Judgement to take place.

I hope I have clarified any confusion

Peace.

hello and peace Muhammad

thank you very much for clearing up my confusion on some of the principles of islam.
doesn't a muslim- submit to Allah? am I wrong to state that I follow one of the messengers of Allah?
I am not calling Jesus son of God but I am calling him a messenger of Allah

 

[Muhammad]

Re: building bridges

Greetings,

doesn't a muslim- submit to Allah? am I wrong to state that I follow one of the messengers of Allah?
I am not calling Jesus son of God but I am calling him a messenger of Allah

You are correct: a Muslim submits to Allaah. So just to clarify, do you believe that Jesus was the Messenger of God and a human being, or do you believe him to be a part of the trinity?

Peace.

P.S. Forgot to add that I moved the posts here from the other thread, as requested.

 

[Mohsin]

Re: building bridges

I see isa or Jesus as someone who is great someone I can never be even if I try to be sometimes.



I do submit to God but through Jesus.
according to Jesus in Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets.
Murder-- according to Jesus and the 6th commandment it says thou shalt not kill.
then adultery- Jesus states that we should not commit adultery just like in the 7th commandment you shall not commit adultery.
then Jesus states that you shall love your Lord God with all your soul mind and heart just like in the 1st commandment you shall have no other gods before me.

please tell me which one of these are you not suppose to follow?
I am sorry if I sound rude.. but what I am trying to point out here just like you believe you are suppose to live a sin free live we are also called to do the same.. if we weren't then the commandments wouldn't be here.

Firstly we don't believe you submitt to God through Jesus PBUH, as Jesus PBUH himself told his followers about the coming of the last prophet Muhammed SAW in the Bible, so to fully submitt to God you should follow everything he has said.
Also we believe we should come to common terms as to One God, like you said in the 1st commandment, but we believe by believeing in trinity you are not believing in one god. There are christians that do believe in One god without believeing in trinity.

To be honest i don't usually see much fighting between Muslims and Christians, it's usually between Jews and Muslims as in Israel, or Hindus in Kashmir. Although i rarely find practicing christians, when i have come accross them they are very nice, and we can easily co-exist if we both follow our faiths

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

Greetings,



You are correct: a Muslim submits to Allaah. So just to clarify, do you believe that Jesus was the Messenger of God and a human being, or do you believe him to be a part of the trinity?

Peace.

P.S. Forgot to add that I moved the posts here from the other thread, as requested.

I believe him to be my Jesus as the Christ and the Lamb.

I really don't think Muhammad was attacking our idea of the Father, Son, and HolySpirit in the Godhead but having a wife and having a son by her (Table 5:116 And when Allah saith : O Jesus , son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind : Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith : Be glorified It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right . If I used to say it , then Thou knewest it . Thou knowest what is in my mind , and I know not what is in Thy mind . Lo! Thou , only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.
Jinn72.3 . And ( we believe ) that He , exalted be the glory of our Lord! hath taken neither wife nor son.

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

thank you agian for listening.. and thank you for moving those parts into this thread... very much appreciate it.
hope I am not causing trouble my intentions in this thread is so we might get along other than curse each other.

 

[Muhammad]

Re: building bridges

Greetings,

Thankyou also for your willingness to dialogue respectfully and replies . I agree that despite our differences, it is possible to get along well together.

I believe him to be my Jesus as the Christ and the Lamb.

I really don't think Muhammad was attacking our idea of the Father, Son, and HolySpirit in the Godhead but having a wife and having a son by her (Table 5:116 And when Allah saith : O Jesus , son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind : Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith : Be glorified It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right . If I used to say it , then Thou knewest it . Thou knowest what is in my mind , and I know not what is in Thy mind . Lo! Thou , only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.
Jinn72.3 . And ( we believe ) that He , exalted be the glory of our Lord! hath taken neither wife nor son.

Just to be clear: it was not Muhammad (peace be upon him) who wrote the Qur'an, but rather Allaah revealed His Words to him; hence any reproval against the trinity was ultimately from Allaah rather than from Muhammad's (peace be upon him) own will.

So you believe that the concept of the Father, Holy Ghost and the Son is not literal and that Jesus is therefore not God's son. If I am right in thinking this, then may I ask what the purpose behind this trinity is? Why does each part have its own distinctive name if in fact it is referring to One God, and therefore why refer to Jesus as a Son, if he is not a son?

I do not mean to offend you by these questions, but to understand your terminology and way of thinking just as you wish to understand ours .

Peace.

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

Thankyou also for your willingness to dialogue respectfully and replies . I agree that despite our differences, it is possible to get along well together.
.

no problem glad to do so and I also would like to thank you all for doing the same. :brother:

Just to be clear: it was not Muhammad (peace be upon him) who wrote the Qur'an, but rather Allaah revealed His Words to him; hence any reproval against the trinity was ultimately from Allaah rather than from Muhammad's (peace be upon him) own will.
.

So you believe that the concept of the Father, Holy Ghost and the Son is not literal and that Jesus is therefore not God's son. If I am right in thinking this, then may I ask what the purpose behind this trinity is? Why does each part have its own distinctive name if in fact it is referring to One God, and therefore why refer to Jesus as a Son, if he is not a son?
.

I don't think Jesus is physically the son of God if you read in Matthew-which I have right after this- where we get him to be part of the trinity is that God showed himself in three different ways.. which at the beginning God created acting apon the Father knowing everything.. then we have Jesus acting apon the Word of God since Jesus did everything that the Father wanted He would ask the Father if He could do it.. for instance, your Words don't act apon there own but they act apon what you want them to do. then we have the Spirit that helped create the mind set of Jesus which helps create us to be like our creator

Matthew 1
The Genealogy of Jesus
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ

the God of the Bible is no where in that line of generations(if that make sense). so he is not physically the son of God but rather the voice of Him.

I do not mean to offend you by these questions, but to understand your terminology and way of thinking just as you wish to understand ours .

Peace.

no problem.. I hope I am not doing the same. and thank you for being so kind

 

[Eric H]

Re: building bridges

Greetings and peace to you all and it is good to see bridges being built through the diversity on this forum.

I believe in one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, and when I walk down town I see a part of God’s creation, I see all manor of people each given the freedom from the same God to be an atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu or anything else they might choose to be.

Faith is a gift from God and it seems that God has given each one of us some kind of beliefs or faith through many diverse ways. When it comes to looking at our diverse beliefs I feel we need to understand that God is a mystery and we each have our own way of understanding him that inspires us to do something.

There can be no compulsion in religion, whatever I might think of your beliefs, first I must acknowledge that you are my brother or sister and you are a beautiful part of God’s creation.

Each one of us has a responsibility to care for God’s creation and that means we should care for each other despite our differences.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric

 

[Muhammad]

Re: building bridges

Greetings PrIM3,

Thankyou for sharing your viewpoint. I must admit however, that I don't fully follow the concept that you have described. What I understood from your post was that you believe that Jesus is in fact God Himself, as is the Holy Spirit, but both are merely different forms of one thing.
What I didn't quite understand is why sometimes you refer to each of the different manifestations of God as different beings. For example, you said:

Jesus acting apon the Word of God since Jesus did everything that the Father wanted He would ask the Father if He could do it

If Jesus is a different form of, or a part of God, then this above quote seems to suggest otherwise. It suggests that Jesus could only act by the permission of God, which is incidentally what we believe as Muslims, but it does not appear to follow the explanation that you provided.

You also said:

the Spirit that helped create the mind set of Jesus

This gives the impression that the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God were all seperate beings, since two of them "helped" each other to create the third.

I have probably misunderstood quite a few things here, so I would appreciate your clarification .

the God of the Bible is no where in that line of generations(if that make sense). so he is not physically the son of God but rather the voice of Him.

When you say the "God of the Bible" here, are you referring to Jesus?

Greetings Eric,

Faith is a gift from God and it seems that God has given each one of us some kind of beliefs or faith through many diverse ways. When it comes to looking at our diverse beliefs I feel we need to understand that God is a mystery and we each have our own way of understanding him that inspires us to do something.

You may wish to see the thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/13174-all-religions-lead-allah.html

where there is a video link in the second post, which explains that since there is One God, and one human race, He would not make things confusing and difficult for us by leaving us with many religions. Instead, He taught us How to achieve success through the clear guidance brought by His Prophets, and that in order to find which religion is the true religion (since each religion believes itself to be the true one) we should analyse the evidence brought forth by each of them.

Each one of us has a responsibility to care for God’s creation and that means we should care for each other despite our differences.

I agree , and thankyou for your posts.

Peace.

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

I thank you Muhammad for being so generously kind to me. Hope I am to.. I am truely trying to seek the completment of our bridge.

Thankyou for sharing your viewpoint. I must admit however, that I don't fully follow the concept that you have described. What I understood from your post was that you believe that Jesus is in fact God Himself, as is the Holy Spirit, but both are merely different forms of one thing.
What I didn't quite understand is why sometimes you refer to each of the different manifestations of God as different beings. For example, you said:
.

What I understood from your post was that you believe that Jesus is in fact God Himself, as is the Holy Spirit, but both are merely different forms of one thing. .

what you said is correct for our understanding of God. I am sorry if I am confusing you in anyway shape or form.. I am simply trying to help you understand our beliefs as you are doing the same for me..

If Jesus is a different form of, or a part of God, then this above quote seems to suggest otherwise. It suggests that Jesus could only act by the permission of God, which is incidentally what we believe as Muslims, but it does not appear to follow the explanation that you provided.

what I am trying to say in this part is to explain why Jesus asked the Father for things. or gave thanks to the Father.
I am trying to say that the Words can't write something without the Writer Himself. if you understand that..
Jesus acting apon the Word of Allah since Jesus did everything that the Father wanted He would ask the Father if He could do it.

 

[Muhammad]

Re: building bridges

Greetings,

I thank you Muhammad for being so generously kind to me. Hope I am to.. I am truely trying to seek the completment of our bridge.

Thankyou for your compliments , I find you are being equally kind.

what I am trying to say in this part is to explain why Jesus asked the Father for things. or gave thanks to the Father.
I am trying to say that the Words can't write something without the Writer Himself. if you understand that..
Jesus acting apon the Word of Allah since Jesus did everything that the Father wanted He would ask the Father if He could do it.

OK, you said I was right that you believe that "Jesus is in fact God Himself, as is the Holy Spirit, but both are merely different forms of one thing", so if you say for example that God is the Writer, then shouldn't Jesus also be the Writer according to your beliefs? If Jesus is equal to God (as in being the same Being), then shouldn't you be able to use their names interchangeably? So if you say that "Jesus acted upon the Word of God", then it means that God acted upon the Word of God, which I don't quite understand. If you said they were two seperate entities, rather than both being part of the One God, I think it would make more sense.

What are your views on this understanding?

Peace.

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

Greetings,


Thankyou for your compliments , I find you are being equally kind.



OK, you said I was right that you believe that "Jesus is in fact God Himself, as is the Holy Spirit, but both are merely different forms of one thing", so if you say for example that God is the Writer, then shouldn't Jesus also be the Writer according to your beliefs? If Jesus is equal to God (as in being the same Being), then shouldn't you be able to use their names interchangeably? So if you say that "Jesus acted upon the Word of God", then it means that God acted upon the Word of God, which I don't quite understand. If you said they were two seperate entities, rather than both being part of the One God, I think it would make more sense.

What are your views on this understanding?

Peace.

Hello Hi thanks for your question about what we believe thanks for being so kind. :brother:
just a quick reply:
well see in Genesis 1:1 it states In the Beginning God Created the earth ( this is the Father side of Him ) then in Genesis 1:3 God said ( the Word; everything was made through the Word(Jesus)) "Let there be Light," and there was light.
then God gave us His spirit in Genesis 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath.
without God's spirit none is able to live
so God gave us His words in the flesh in the beginning God made us through the Word and in the end we will be brought to God through the Word.
if you understand that.

in Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,"

as John 14:27 ( my favorite verse in the our Holy Book says ) which I will say to: My Peace I give you and my peace I leave with you.

PS Muhammad I am trying to read the Qur'an aswell

 

[PrIM3]

Re: building bridges

we have some other beliefs that are in common:

according to the injeel ( new word I learned ) Luke1:50- His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.

which is presented in the Qur'an in Battlements 7:96 And if the people of the township had believed and kept from evil , surely We ( who is we? the only person who has the power to do that is God ) should have opened for them , blessings from the sky and from the earth .

thank you agian for being so kind
regards,
PrIM3