But why Islam?

[believer]

way back in the 70's... late 70's that is... I chose GENETIC engineering as my research topic... as a student in elementary - it gave me a more advanced understanding about Darwins theory of evolution... and the latest info I find from the Scientific discoveries or studies made was that... What drives Evolution to produce a myriad of diverse species... all having "ID" - 'intelligent design'... and Why Man was so unique ... like the human species or genum has been particularly picked to be so special... We are the only animals with a rational soul... who has the ability to talk... in different languages... yet we do have different races as well which makes us even more unique and distinct!... If there is no Intelligent or SUperior Power over all these chaotic harmony... we will only be a highly evolved monkey who do not posses the power to speak, write, read, rationalize - nor even debate and question the very existence and authority of a Supreme Powe which we cannot see... whom we obviously all know as GOD.

I used to think in an existentialistic manner... but after feeling sad for too long... I know I must continue seeking for knowledge. The Catholic Faith Book of Vatican 1 was my first inspiration as a child.. but only to be dissillusioned later on by the changes the Catholic church made. At any rate...

What do we loose by believing that there is a God? Nothing.... but everything to gain.... so ... nobody is forcing you to believe that there is a God. I won't care a bit if you don't...but - Just think about this... What if there was really a God... and when you died... your soul reaches the purgatory or whatever you may want to call it... and then find out there is really a God. What will you gain being an Atheist?...

I recommend you to read the Bible... OT and NT... cover to cover... understand it's context entirely... then - read the Noble Qur'an... you will be able to see the Big Picture afterwards. And while at it... read all the Scientific Journals alongside... No Problem!...

one way to test your belief... or faith or whatever is to subject it to fire... This is the fire. As Gold is tested in the acid. I did... and I am convinced.

don't take my word for it... just try reading it and find out for yourself.

May Allah guide you... (it's not too late to believe) ...

 

[believer]

simple misunderstand of each other. I intended for my statement to imply that most of the former Catholics were devout Catholics and many of them were at one time Priests or Seminarians. That does not imply anything about how many priests are reverting.

A similar statement would be to say: "Many Airline Pilots were former College students" does not mean "Many former college students are airline pilots."

I would like to say that... as a matter of fact... many priests from the Catholic Church has reverted to Islam... in fact some of them were even Bishops.... Google it - you will be surprised!... I know some and met some already here in Arabia.... and in fact one from UK was even teaching religion was even a scholar in the Vatican... after reading the Qur'an and learning Islam... decided to embrace Islam... but it wasn't that easy. Islam is not inviting everyone to embrace it the way many other religion does... the call of Islam is a divine experience... and many who has experienced it will attest to it. Nothing is more sweeter than Islam... especially for one who has tasted nearly everything already.

 

[MustafaMc]

Islam is not inviting everyone to embrace it the way many other religion does... the call of Islam is a divine experience... and many who has experienced it will attest to it. Nothing is more sweeter than Islam... especially for one who has tasted nearly everything already.

I agree. No person convinced me to become a Muslim. Like you said when I read the Quran, I felt as though God had opened my eyes for the first time. Today, I feel humbly honored that Allah chose me from among so many non-Muslims in USA to guide me to the Truth. What have I done to deserve such a tremendous blessing?

 

[Woodrow]

I would like to say that... as a matter of fact... many priests from the Catholic Church has reverted to Islam... in fact some of them were even Bishops.... Google it - you will be surprised!... I know some and met some already here in Arabia.... and in fact one from UK was even teaching religion was even a scholar in the Vatican... after reading the Qur'an and learning Islam... decided to embrace Islam... but it wasn't that easy. Islam is not inviting everyone to embrace it the way many other religion does... the call of Islam is a divine experience... and many who has experienced it will attest to it. Nothing is more sweeter than Islam... especially for one who has tasted nearly everything already.

I wouldn't be surprised. Quite a few of us reverts here were Catholics. I don't believe we have any former Priests, but at least several of us had been Seminarians at one time in our lives.

I do not know of a single revert that was asked to accept Islam from any person. It seems to always be like you said: "...the call of Islam is a divine experience."


I believe for me to sum up the OP (But why Islam?). For myself I can say::

I believe in the existence of Allah(swt)

I believe Allah(swt) sent prophets and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final prophet.

Therefore the only logical choice for me as a deist is to accept Islam.

The original question is "But why Islam?" we have gotten off the topic and began debating Deist vs Atheist. That is a totally separate question and will never be answered satisfactorily.

A Deist depends on Faith and Science. An Atheist depends on science alone. Never shall the twain meet.

 

[Draco]

I think any religious debate with an atheist inevitably converges on a discussion about evolution and the probability of the existence of a deity - but Woodrow and MustafaMC are right – this was not a debate about the strength of evolution as a scientific theory.

I like the paraphrasing NoName55, that made me smile. I’ll answer the last part; have I read the Quran? No I must admit I haven’t read it in its entirety but I can justify my reasons for not doing so. In fact I suppose this is why I asked the question in the first place: But why Islam? Please allow me to indulge a little with the explanation.

As we are all aware, over the course of human history there have been literally hundreds, probably thousands, of belief systems that could be called a religion. I found a really interesting site that compares some of them:

http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm

You can see a high level view of the fundamentals of each religion, approximately when they started, how popular each one is today etc.

I asked the question, “But why Islam?” because this is an Islamic forum, but the same question could have been posted on the forum of any of the respective religions. Perhaps you’re willing to concede that regardless of your religion of choice, each follower would be willing to put forth a pretty vehement argument as to why their particular religion is correct and why you should follow it. In fact, for the Muslims in this forum, why not go on a Christian forum and ask them why they choose to follow Christianity. See if you can convince them that the Quran is correct and the Bible is wrong. I’m willing to bet that most are as passionate about their belief and as convinced by the truth of the Bible as you are by the Quran. But why should they be so convinced?

Now the question I ask myself is how does anyone know which religion is in fact speaking the truth (if any)? They cannot all be right. Indeed are any of them right? If I lived in Asia at the time of 1500 B.C.E I might be inclined to think Hinduism is correct. If I lived in Greek times, I might be tempted to believe in the existence of Zeus, Hades and Apollo (this religion is of course now extinct). The two religions that dominate the world today are relative newcomers to the spiritual scene but maybe I’m inclined to go with Christianity since I grew up in the West and because it is the most popular religion at the moment and within the region.

So here we are in the 21st century and you as a Muslim say to someone like me, “Choose Islam, Islam is the only true faith”. Maybe you will go into the specifics of your faith and start telling me how wonderful it is and how right it feels. Maybe you’ll use rhetoric such as “I didn’t find my faith, my faith found me”. Maybe you’ll tell me about how it helped you when you were in a troublesome period of your life. Maybe you’ll point out the discrepancies in other religious beliefs. The list of personal reasons to believe is endless. However, if I take a step back and look at the bigger picture I’ll know that depending on the era we live in, geographic location, current popular consensus, political climate, or any other influencing factor, you could just as easily be telling me to believe not in Allah, but in Zeus, al-Aql al-Kulli, ECK, Krishna, Jehovah, Bolon or any one of a thousand gods that were held in high regard at one time or another.

I’m sure this point has been made to you before but it’s still worthwhile considering what was before Islam and what has come after it. This fact should at least start you asking the question: why is my faith so special in the context of all these others?

The atheist’s grumble is not with the finer points of any of the belief systems. How can anyone be expected to choose intelligently anyway?! The grumble is with the fundamental concept that most religions share; that there exists a supernatural, all-seeing, all-knowing, higher power – a God. Whether this God created the earth in 7 days or a billion days, whether it’s a he or a she or an It, whether it’s a merciful god or a vengeful one is completely irrelevant when you find the whole concept of a God highly improbable. Think for a moment about a mythical being that you don’t believe in yourself. If you don’t believe in the tooth fairy, why would you read a book that goes into the finer points about the life of the tooth fairy (unless it were just for amusement)?

When believer paraphrased one of my posts I believe he was attempting to liken atheism and religion, as if atheism was a belief system, the same as any other religion. On the surface this may seem valid but there is a fundamental difference. Atheism is NOT a belief system in exactly the same sense that science is NOT a belief system. A religion, like Islam, like Christianity, like Judaism requires ‘faith’; a belief in something without evidence and sometimes in the face of evidence to the contrary. And just to avoid the inevitable retort, the Quran (or Bible or whatever) cannot be called evidence. You as Muslims may believe it is but as I’ve discussed at great length there are, and have been over the course of human history, many more people who would completely disregard your holy book and all its teachings.

That said, I would not be averse to picking up a copy of the Quran and reading it. After all, a book that has influenced over a billion people is surely worth reading at least once (same could be said for the Bible). How about I promise to do so if you promise to read a copy of ‘The Selfish Gene’ by Richard Dawkins – a book that hasn’t done badly itself (over a million copies sold and translated into more than 25 languages)?

Any takers?

 

[Draco]

I just wanted to comment on a few specific points in a separate post also:

I can't believe 1 book could make you U-Turn, ive seen so many now and seen so many lectures/debates/texts, it never had an effect on me? What are you reading lol, it all seems the same stuff anyway.

Hasn’t one book dictated your whole way of life Md Mashud?

What do we loose by believing that there is a God? Nothing.... but everything to gain.... so ... nobody is forcing you to believe that there is a God. I won't care a bit if you don't...but - Just think about this... What if there was really a God... and when you died... your soul reaches the purgatory or whatever you may want to call it... and then find out there is really a God. What will you gain being an Atheist?...

believer I don’t know what genetics class you took but if you’ve come to the conclusion of Intelligent Design then you must have failed the class miserably!

This point about believing should have been answered in my long post about other religions but I’ll make it explicit here. What if there really is a God and what if you as a Muslim have picked the wrong one? What if it’s not Allah waiting for you in Paradise but instead it’s Zeus or al-Aql al-Kulli or ECK or Krishna or Jehovah or Bolon or the Christian God? Perhaps the God would be angrier with you for believing in the wrong one than with me for believing in none. What is so important about belief anyway? If I’m wrong and I stand at the pearly gates of heaven and state that whilst I didn’t believe I was still a kind person, a generous person, I didn’t steal or kill or try to harm others – isn’t that better than just belief alone?

In any case, if that is your prime reason for believing in a God then the question “But why Islam?” is still relevant to you. You may as well be like our deist snakelegs who doesn’t have time for any specific religion but has nevertheless conjured up his own personal God. He can live his life according to his own moral code and when his day of judgement comes he can still say he believed!

<snip> It seems to always be like you said: "...the call of Islam is a divine experience."

I believe for me to sum up the OP (But why Islam?). For myself I can say::

I believe in the existence of Allah(swt)

I believe Allah(swt) sent prophets and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final prophet.

Therefore the only logical choice for me as a deist is to accept Islam.

Yes but that doesn’t explain a lot to someone who doesn’t hold true the same axioms as you. A Christian or Jew could very well say the same about their God – why do you believe in Allah and not Yaweh or any other?

The original question is "But why Islam?" we have gotten off the topic and began debating Deist vs Atheist. That is a totally separate question and will never be answered satisfactorily.

A Deist depends on Faith and Science. An Atheist depends on science alone. Never shall the twain meet.

But I’m not sure a deist does depend on science when it comes to questions about the existence of God. I think a better word for ‘science’ is ‘evidence’. Faith does not require evidence. Science does. Therein lies the fundamental difference.

 

[Woodrow]

<snip> It seems to always be like you said: "...the call of Islam is a divine experience."

I believe for me to sum up the OP (But why Islam?). For myself I can say::

I believe in the existence of Allah(swt)

I believe Allah(swt) sent prophets and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final prophet.

Therefore the only logical choice for me as a deist is to accept Islam.

Yes but that doesn’t explain a lot to someone who doesn’t hold true the same axioms as you. A Christian or Jew could very well say the same about their God – why do you believe in Allah and not Yaweh or any other?

Moot argument when applying it in comparisons between the Abrahamic Religions. Jew, Christian, Sabian and Muslim all believe in the God(swt) of Abraham(PBUH). One God(swt) the same God(swt)

The original question is "But why Islam?" we have gotten off the topic and began debating Deist vs Atheist. That is a totally separate question and will never be answered satisfactorily.

A Deist depends on Faith and Science. An Atheist depends on science alone. Never shall the twain meet.

But I’m not sure a deist does depend on science when it comes to questions about the existence of God. I think a better word for ‘science’ is ‘evidence’. Faith does not require evidence. Science does. Therein lies the fundamental difference.

As a Muslim I find that faith does require evidence and we are encouraged to not accept things simply because somebody has told us to. Even here on this forum you will find Muslims asking questions and seeking verification from other sources as to validity. However, we do respect knowledge and will accept things from a scholar, until we can prove different.

The reason we consider the study of the Qur'an and Hadith as science and not philosophy is because the study is treated in an very analytical and critical method. Faith is a very important part of religion, but blind faith with out reason is not encouraged.

 

[جوري]

I am going to reply to this post in points, I don't have time to quote.

1-I don't think it is incumbent upon anyone to convince anyone else of the 'truth', one might question if by same token, you've had some luck converting people over to Atheism?

2-The concept of Monotheism has always existed, here is pic attachment of one pre-dating the bible in all its versions.. if people took the tree of life to mean the tree of Yggdrasil and got creative, well that is there own fault..
if you have a guide line to perform a Roux-en-Y via the transmesocolic approach and you decide the go about it via a posterior lumbar because you think it is better, then what can anyone do for you really other than shrug their shoulders? what is clear stands out from error.

Mesopotamian Eden predates Genesis

An example of a cylinder seal depicting a Garden of Eden story. A man and woman sitting under the seven branched Tree of Life. Note the snake on the right. Akkadian Cylinder Seal, 2330-2150 B.C.E.


3-Why is Islam so special compared to others, well I believe you have to meet people half way in order to establish a why. again, you can't discuss treatment for Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome, when you don't even know what it is. You can ridicule with the usual, It doesn't exist, I have never seen anyone with it, it doesn't affect me, there are no documented cases and go on living your life completely unaffected by it. There are many laws that govern your life, you probably don't give much thought to or believe in their existence. I am sure you can go on perfectly happy not knowing or even believing that there is such a thing as TPR governing your life-- yet the interplay between mean Arterial pressure, cardiac output and total peripheral resistance keeps your system in homeostasis and you alive... if one of them should fail acutely or chronically it would lead to eventual demise... Many people can go on ignoring them--- some might read up a little when stick with meds in the aspects where meds might be needed... some might go against medical advise and just call it bluff and then end up dead with their belief that no such formula can govern my body's homeostasis...

Everyone knows what they know and believe it--- it is fine for some it is beyond a reasonable doubt for others, they live and die not knowing or caring. Either way it is fine, so long as one doesn't infringe on the beliefs of others or makes them the focal point of mockery when they themselves by some other measure might be dwelling in the dark ages. Takes me back to the original point... you can't get into a debate about God when you don't even believe in him..


4- I am not sure why Atheists are fond of tooth fairies and spaghetti monsters? until they bring a debate to a level, can we then delve into why Christianity or why Islam etc-- so far they haven't and by they I mean (Atheists) as most scientists do in fact believe in God to a staggering degree. Many have spent a life time dedicating research to it..
such as with these two papers ..
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_PrimitiveCell_112302.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0603/0603005.pdf

life is in many ways super natural.. the occurrence in a tiny cell are staggering and numerous. I don't want to delve into biochemical or physiological processes, I couldn't cover them all and I wouldn't want to..No atheist has given a good answer as to how or why it has come to assemble and continues to move in a positive direction. Any ungoverned system will be chaotic..yet even the death of our cells is programmed (apoptosis)-- any logical person will reflect and know, things don't just happen, or just appear... Does any Atheist think honestly of the colors espousing in the sky at the end of the day, all the best things in life that are entirely free to fill the senses, the simple act of breathing without having to think about it during sleep as to even ascertain whether or not God is benevolent or malevolent?...


5- I am not sure what the point is of who regards the Quran or disregards it. It is all inconsequential.. If you know you are headed for a trip to some far away country, you might want to pack a bag with provisions for the road and your destination... Some prefer to gamble and just see how they can improvise when they get there.. and that is certainly their prerogative. No one is holding a gun to their head-- we are certainly all travelers as evidenced by the fact that no one has been spared death!

6- Read two chapters by Dawkins--- I have concluded he is a dynamo of a hyperbole!
there are many get quick rich schemes and there is no better way to do it, then by a different form of mind control under the pretext of free thought.. So there you've just displaced and found your God in Dawkins..
kudos

Peace!

 

[Draco]

Moot argument when applying it in comparisons between the Abrahamic Religions. Jew, Christian, Sabian and Muslim all believe in the God(swt) of Abraham(PBUH). One God(swt) the same God(swt)

Ok, well pick a different God from a non-related religion. The point still applies.

As a Muslim I find that faith does require evidence and we are encouraged to not accept things simply because somebody has told us to. Even here on this forum you will find Muslims asking questions and seeking verification from other sources as to validity. However, we do respect knowledge and will accept things from a scholar, until we can prove different.

The reason we consider the study of the Qur'an and Hadith as science and not philosophy is because the study is treated in an very analytical and critical method. Faith is a very important part of religion, but blind faith with out reason is not encouraged.

Call it faith, call it blind faith - it's the same thing. Faith is belief that is not based on proof or evidence. And I don't agree that you are encouraged to look for evidence. According to Muslims the Quran is the word of Allah, so why should you not simply accept that as it is written?

 

[snakelegs]

maybe this thread should better have been called "why atheism"?
faith and science are 2 different systems - this does not make one superior and one inferior.
for that matter, since the deveopment of quantum physics, i think the dividing line between the 2 systems has become a bit blurred.

 

[Md Mashud]

Hasn’t one book dictated your whole way of life Md Mashud?

A bit cheeky , I think beleiving one book as word of God and another as a scientists opinion on evolution is quite a huge leap. It doesn't help finding many flaws in evolutionist books, while I had never found a problem with the Quran.

 

[Woodrow]

Ok, well pick a different God from a non-related religion. The point still applies.

and the point being? That is sort of like me saying that some scientists believe in the big bang origin of matter and some believe in the constant state origing. both are often very adamant. Does that serve as evidence science does not exist?

Call it faith, call it blind faith - it's the same thing. Faith is belief that is not based on proof or evidence. And I don't agree that you are encouraged to look for evidence. According to Muslims the Quran is the word of Allah, so why should you not simply accept that as it is written?

Once I had verified to myself and to my satisfaction that the Qur'an is the Word of God(swt) there was no other choice than to accept it as it is written.

All Muslims have to verify to themselves that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah(swt). It is true that with some it may be so ingrained in their culture they have had little need to seek verification other than what they are told.

But, one thing to keep in mind nearly 90% of the world's Muslims come from non Arabic, non Muslim ancestry and from non Mid Eastern Cultures. The vast majority of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as a native language. People will do a lot of questioning when it comes to them having to learn a language other than their native tongue. The fact that we have to learn Arabic in order to fully understand Islam, is very much an incentive to Question.

If you had to learn Arabic to study Physics, would you do so without questioning why you need to learn Arabic. So it is with Islam.

Also keep in mind Islam has no ordained clergy and no central religious leaders. Masjids are very individual projects. the Imam of any Masjid is no different than any of the people attending the Masjid. It is not uncommon for the Imam to simply be the oldest person present. Each of us as an individual is responsible to learn what Islam is and to learn how to be Muslim. Our life is a life time search to learn to practice Islam to the best of our ability. It takes a lot of questioning and searching.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Many of my Muslim friends have spoken of the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an and even it's predictive accuracy (given the time of it's writing). I always feel this is rather shaky ground for the Quran. I think if we are all honest, we realise that modern science is incredibly powerful and will always have the upper hand when it comes to explaining the world we live in.

Definitely. the Qur'an is not a science book. It's purpose is mainly to serve as guidance for the believers and as proof for Muhammed (peace be upon him) his prophethood. But, that doesn't change that some of the references to science are incredibly powerful.

I’ve read many posts where Islam (and other religions) attempt to take on science head on. The debates usually go round in circles with the religious either claiming scientific processes as the work of God or being forced to directly disagree with strong scientific theories.

That's odd. Were those posts on this forum, and all on the same topic or on different topics? So far the only thing I know of that seems incompatible with Islam would be evolution. But I see atheists and agnostics doubting evolution to. Furthermore I see muslims believing in evolution (albeit under the guise of ID) So I wouldn't see this as religion vs. science. On all other subjects Islam seems to be going hand in hand quite perfectly with science.

What fascinates me is how otherwise intelligent and rational people (as I presume most in this forum are) refuse to question the authenticity of the Quran in the light of such strong scientific evidence to the contrary.

There are several threads regarding this in the (temporarily closed) comparative religion section where I've been active from time to times but I have never encountered any scientific evidence that questions the authenticity of the Qur'an. No strong ones, and no weak ones. All I've seen so far are:
1. Misinterpretations due to limitation of translations
Which doesn't require further explanation, the description already says it all
2. Misunderstanding of the difference between miracles and science.
To explain that one a bit further:
According to Islam the physical laws are the habitual conduct of God. So science is the study of the habitual enforcement of law by God. According to Islam God sometimes choses to abandon habitual law and make miracles. To claim that a reference in the Qur'an to these miracles contradicts science is preposterous. The Qur'an never claimed that they happened under normal law of physics. So to claim that these miracles are contradicted by science makes about as much sense as checking a French text with an English spelling-check-program and then claiming that practically every word in it is "wrong".

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Oh, forgot to add, if you're interested in my personal story of "why Islam", my user page shows the story of my reversion to Islam (click the link in my signature)

 

[Amadeus85]

I think that it is not full truth that westerners know about islam just little and muslims are experts about christianity and judaism. I dont know how it is in other countries, but in Poland we have religion lessons in primary school and highschool as well. And both in primary school and highschool we have lessons also about other (non catholic) faith. First about protestant denominations, about orthodox christianity.Then we learn about non christian religions, first judaism, then islam, hinduism and buddhism, sikhism etc. So average polish kid hears about islam in early age already. Also we learn about muslim faith and civilization during history lessons. We learn then about Muhammed, arab conquest and achievments.
On the other hand, i found some muslims, also on LI Islamic Forum, who have very low knowledge about christianity and judaism. Those people think for example that trinity is God The Father, Jesus and Mary.

 

[Woodrow]

I think that it is not full truth that westerners know about islam just little and muslims are experts about christianity and judaism. I dont know how it is in other countries, but in Poland we have religion lessons in primary school and highschool as well. And both in primary school and highschool we have lessons also about other (non catholic) faith. First about protestant denominations, about orthodox christianity.Then we learn about non christian religions, first judaism, then islam, hinduism and buddhism, sikhism etc. So average polish kid hears about islam in early age already. Also we learn about muslim faith and civilization during history lessons. We learn then about Muhammed, arab conquest and achievments.
On the other hand, i found some muslims, also on LI Islamic Forum, who have very low knowledge about christianity and judaism. Those people think for example that trinity is God The Father, Jesus and Mary.

Dzien dobry Aaron,

Jak sie pan miewa? Czy Pan mowi po Polsku?

Even in Poland you will find some slanting of the teaching of Islam. The few Tatars that have returned to Poland after being Exile by the Russians will give a considerable different version of Christianity/Islam in Poland. For nearly 400 years Poland had a very large Muslim Population and even much of the early nobility were Muslim. But, the Crusaders from the Knights Templar used force to impose Christianity upon Poland. the education system of any country is very much influenced by the concept of history desired by the residents or the political elite. Bradbury's old book "Fahrenheit 451" is quite true in the statement that history is made by the present.

Here in the US because of seperation of Church and State very little about religion is taught in the Public schools.

Your statement is probably true for your location, but I believe that here in the US you will find that most Muslims have more knowledge of Christianity, than most Christians have of Islam. Than again many of us here are reverts and were Christians at one time.

 

[Amadeus85]

Dzien dobry Aaron,

Dzień dobry Woodrow.

Jak sie pan miewa? Czy Pan mowi po Polsku?

Mam się dobrze (im fine thnx). Tak mówie po polsku (Yes i speak polish)

For nearly 400 years Poland had a very large Muslim Population and even much of the early nobility were Muslim

.

Do you have any source for that? In which period you mean. Nowadays Poland has about 25-30 thousands muslim population.5 thousands are Tatars, rest are foreign students, doctors, buisnessmen. And about 4-5 thousands converts.But here many of them back to Catholic Church after short time.

But, the Crusaders from the Knights Templar used force to impose Christianity upon Poland.

Im afraid that you are wrong. Poland embraced christianity in 966 A.D from the help of Chech king.It was prince Mieszko who married chech princess Dobrava and became christian. The Knights Templar, that you mention, came in the northern part of Poland in 1226 year , invited by Konrad Mazowiecki to fight with pagan Prus who often attacked the northern provinbce of Poland.

Here in the US because of seperation of Church and State very little about religion is taught in the Public schools.

Yes i know. Thats why im happy to live in catholic country.

Your statement is probably true for your location, but I believe that here in the US you will find that most Muslims have more knowledge of Christianity, than most Christians have of Islam. Than again many of us here are reverts and were Christians at one time.

Yes maybe. BTW, there is thing that i want to ask you. About 30 % of american muslims are afro americans. Do the belong to Nation Of Islam, or they are mainstream muslims?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I think that it is not full truth that westerners know about islam just little and muslims are experts about christianity and judaism. I dont know how it is in other countries, but in Poland we have religion lessons in primary school and highschool as well. And both in primary school and highschool we have lessons also about other (non catholic) faith. First about protestant denominations, about orthodox christianity.Then we learn about non christian religions, first judaism, then islam, hinduism and buddhism, sikhism etc. So average polish kid hears about islam in early age already. Also we learn about muslim faith and civilization during history lessons. We learn then about Muhammed, arab conquest and achievments.
On the other hand, i found some muslims, also on LI Islamic Forum, who have very low knowledge about christianity and judaism. Those people think for example that trinity is God The Father, Jesus and Mary.

Yes, here in Belgium we have that to. The problem is, the teachers themselves usually know little about these different faiths either! Just some stereotype and cliché views. And even if they do know a little more about it, the time spent on these different faiths is usually to small to "paint a good picture".

 

[Woodrow]

Dzień dobry Woodrow.



Mam się dobrze (im fine thnx). Tak mówie po polsku (Yes i speak polish)

.

Do you have any source for that? In which period you mean. Nowadays Poland has about 25-30 thousands muslim population.5 thousands are Tatars, rest are foreign students, doctors, buisnessmen. And about 4-5 thousands converts.But here many of them back to Catholic Church after short time.



Im afraid that you are wrong. Poland embraced christianity in 966 A.D from the help of Chech king.It was prince Mieszko who married chech princess Dobrava and became christian. The Knights Templar, that you mention, came in the northern part of Poland in 1226 year , invited by Konrad Mazowiecki to fight with pagan Prus who often attacked the northern provinbce of Poland.




Yes i know. Thats why im happy to live in catholic country.



Yes maybe. BTW, there is thing that i want to ask you. About 30 % of american Muslims are afro americans. Do the belong to Nation Of Islam, or they are mainstream muslims?

Dziekkuje for replying to my attempt at Polish. That is about my limit of the language.

I am roughly 50% Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Tater) My family was from Vilnius and Konas. I do have some relatives in Poland from the Kossakowski side of the family although uncle Syzman managed to get himself hung in 1794 for trying to overthrow Kosciusko.

Needless to say the Tatar version of the history of Lithuania/Poland does differ from what you have been taught.

I found a few links of the Tatar version.

The rulers of Lithuania and Poland have always been tolerant of the Tatar community and its religion. In these lands the Tatars built mosques and freely practiced their religion. They were granted various rights and privileges; the Tatar aristocracy had the same status as the nobility of Lithuania and Poland. For centuries Lithuanian Tatars maintained the image of fearless and capable warriors; their main activity was warfare. During various periods the Tatar community found its place in the life and liberation struggles of the Lithuanian and Polish nations.

Source: http://alka.mch.mii.lt/visuomene/totoriai/trumpa.en.htm

In 14th century the first Tatar tribes settled in the lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Skilled warriors and great mercenaries, their settlement was promoted by the Grand Dukes of Lithuania, among them Gediminas, Algirdas and Kęstutis. The Tatars who settled in Lithuania, Ruthenia and modern-day eastern Poland were allowed to preserve their Sunni religion in exchange for military service. The initial settlements were mostly temporary and most of the Tatars returned to their native lands after their service expired. However, in the late 14th century Grand Duke Vytautas (named by the Tatars Wattad, that is defender of Muslims) and his brother King Władysław Jagiełło started to settle Tatars in the Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic borderlands. The Lipka Tatars, as they are known, migrated from the lands of the Golden Horde and in large part served in the Polish-Lithuanian military. The largest of such groups to arrive to the area was a tribe of Tokhtamysh, who in 1397 rebelled against his former protector Tamerlane and sought asylum in the Grand Duchy. The Tatars under his command were all granted with szlachta status, a tradition that was preserved until the end of the Commonwealth in 18th century[2]. Light Tatar cavalry, used both as skirmishers and reconnaissance troops took part in many of the battles against the foreign armies in the 15th century and afterwards, including the battle of Grunwald in which the Tatars fought commanded by their leader, Jalal ad-Din khan.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Poland


Now to get back to the Knights Templar.

The Teutonic Knights Templar undertook their first crusade in Poland in 1325. These crusades to Poland were renewed in 1340, 1343, 1351, 1354, 1355, 1363, and 1369. They established eight main Knight Templar commanderies in Poland; and during the fourteenth century, dozens of towns and about 2000 villages were created in Prussia (present day Poland) by the Order. The Teutonic Knights also built an impressive fortress headquarters at Marienburg (Malbork), which is today one of the most popular tourist attractions in Poland. Lesser known but equally interesting traces of the Knights presence can still be seen through historic churches, castles and buildings in places like Lesnica, Chwarszczany, Lagow, Rurka, and Torun.

Source: http://polandpoland.com/teutonic_knights_templar.html

In other words Christianity was pushed onto Poland by force and conquest.

Yes maybe. BTW, there is thing that i want to ask you. About 30 % of american Muslims are afro americans. Do the belong to Nation Of Islam, or they are mainstream muslims?

Muslims do not consider NOI to be Muslim. This does make for a descrepancy in Statistics for the number of Muslims in the US. The US census department does count both Muslim and NOI as being Muslim. However, the Islamic Mosque figures are of Muslims alone and do not count NOI. The Mosques do not normally have any type of membership rolls so the actual number of Muslims in the USA is difficult to measure. It is believed to be between 6 and 12 million excluding NOI. a very large number of Afro-Americans are Muslim, although many who are called Muslim by outsiders are NOI. Most of the NOI will call themselves either Black Muslims or NOI and do not associate themselves with Muslims.


Now to return this thread back to Draco's original question: "But, why Islam"

My ancestors had converted to Christianity about 400 years age. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. It was while I was a seminarian to be a Priest that I began to question Christianity. A study of my own ancestry revealed how much Christianity was pushed upon my ancestors by force. That in part was the Reason I left Christianity over forty years ago. I reverted to Islam about 2 years ago as explained in early posts in this thread.

 

[Amadeus85]

I am roughly 50% Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Tater) My family was from Vilnius and Konas. I do have some relatives in Poland from the Kossakowski side of the family although uncle Syzman managed to get himself hung in 1794 for trying to overthrow Kosciusko.

Yes, those Tatars who live in Poland are very well assimilated. They fought in many polish uprisings against russian and german occupants. They are polish patriots, whose faith is islam.As i said , there are about 5 thousands of them now in Poland.

Needless to say the Tatar version of the history of Lithuania/Poland does differ from what you have been taught.

Mmm, as far as i know, those Tatars who are in Poland now, are the descendents of Tatars who used to attack southern borders of Poland since XIII century.

Now to get back to the Knights Templar.

In other words Christianity was pushed onto Poland by force and conquest.

As i said, Poland embraced christianity in 966 thanx to Chech king. It had nothing to do with Knights Templars. But i know what you mean, The Knight Templers were invited to northern part of Poland (Elbląg) to fight with pagan Pruss. The citizens of Prus (which werent part of Poland until the XV century-1466.) used to attack northern provinces of Poland, thats why Konrad Mazowiecki, polish prince invited Templars. And they fought with Pruss, who are not ethnicly Poles. Poles are Slavians and Pruss are Balts, like Estonians for example.And Templars didnt even pushed christianity on force on Pruss, because Pruss embraced christianity on their own will from Lithuanians in the late XIV century. This act made further being of Templars in Poland useless and made many conflicts withy Poles. One of the biggest fight took placed under village Grunvald in 1410 A.D.

Muslims do not consider NOI to be Muslim. This does make for a descrepancy in Statistics for the number of Muslims in the US. The US census department does count both Muslim and NOI as being Muslim. However, the Islamic Mosque figures are of Muslims alone and do not count NOI. The Mosques do not normally have any type of membership rolls so the actual number of Muslims in the USA is difficult to measure. It is believed to be between 6 and 12 million excluding NOI. a very large number of Afro-Americans are Muslim, although many who are called Muslim by outsiders are NOI. Most of the NOI will call themselves either Black Muslims or NOI and do not associate themselves with Muslims.

I see, so i wonder what is the number of black muslims in USA (without NOI).
I read somewhere that afroamericans make up 30 % of all muslims in USA. Among about 40 millions of Afroamericans , about 3 millions are muslims (or NOI).