Caliphate

[جوري]

Here's an hour an a half lecture on how a political system runs in Islam by a scholar in the field:

I will not translate it, but I am not sure what you're looking for asking people on the forum to explain to you an entire system, one which might not be their field of expertise only to try to refute a premise which may or may not be correct ---


best,

 

[greenhill]

Independent,

Those are interesting questions you pose, but really beyond my knowledge for answers as it is a system that does not exist any longer. What shape and how it would run is entirely another debate altogether.

With regards to credit issue being less, I would not disagree with it and I would be digressing from the topic if I went in it with too much detail. So I will try to be brief. It is my opinion only. Modern day practices on commerce makes it hard to imagine life without money. If it had remained with barter trade, most likely there would be no excesses in produce due to it not being tradeable and the world would regulate itself with regards to supply and demand. Now, we can keep our wealth on a sheet of paper and not be worried about where we are going to find space for our growing herd, we tend to want more and more as opposed to saying that's enough. This is just too simplisticly put, but you get the idea I hope.

On the 'vote' issue, the Caliphate system is government of a muslim state to provide an environment for the muslims to live a life that enhances every aspect of the sunnah in everyday life. Non muslims no doubt can live in that society but have limited rights. Theirs would be limited to being safe, free to practice their own faith, seek honest livelihood, and pay their taxes. Not sure about being allowed to own land. Perhaps not. It is a nation where its passport is the Shahada and with that it is democratic for those who practice. Again very simplisticly put (and my opinion).

On the zakat, I don't believe raising it a bit for the important developments would be met with fierce resistance from the ummah. (Still my opinion)

Peace.

 

[Ahmad H]

I will read his tafseer, the list of things to read is building up.... You guys will know why I've disappeared for a few days... Ha ha.

Ibn Kathir's explanation of verse 24:55 took me five minutes to read. There isn't much to absorb from it. If you've read up on the Caliphate before and the relevant Ahadith, then you'll easily see what point he is making.

Besides this, I remember in the story of Adam (as) in Surha Al Baqarah Ibn Kathir explaiend Caliphate there briefly as well. I forgot to mention that. It should be the verse where Allah says Adam (as) was a Khalifah in the earth.

 

[M.I.A.]

i dont know about you people but i know that the most adversity i have ever encountered is from those that are closest to me.

there answers are not always truthful but are always spiteful.

is it the way the world works or is there something wrong with me?



so why would i need a caliphate if i believe in a god?

in the god?


its something i have trouble with because i have read the quran and put my entire adult life into it.


my own answer is that when i am worthy of help it will be there.


and that is the importance of religion and integrity imo and as it grows in the people, as there willingness to become part of bad actions decreases. then the muslim ummah will be ready for a leadership and will produce leaders.

but i guess its up to allah swt if our sins are worthy of punishment.


it is literally the difference between the end of us or the beginning of us.


and you cant want a boardroom of muslims running your lives for you, thats not what was asked.

although you will always have people of authority to turn to, if you can recognise them.. whatever it is you recognise.



personally speaking, the hardest of my days is when i judge myself.


i would want a caliphate that could change the world by there intent and action, and the observance of the fruits of
of there actions.





...and yet terrorism leads to islamic conversions in the west?

admittedly allah swt exists.

and has no need of any of us.

 

[Ahmad H]

I hope everyone realizes that a Caliphate does not start because the Muslims try to make one. Only Allah installs a Caliph. This is a God-given appointment. The Mahdi (as) would be prepared by Allah in one night, and Isa (as) would receive revelations from Allah as to what he is to do when he returns. So I hope no one comes up with the delusional idea that we appoint Caliphs ourselves. After all, they are successors, not starters of a leadership. That is why they must start again from the Mahdi (as).

 

[جوري]

Where does it say it is a 'God given appointment'? A caliphate isn't a theology, it isn't a papacy and there's no need to wait for a mahdi to start at all, just takes will and basic understanding and lack of division.

 

[Futuwwa]

On the credit and funding part, I am sure there is no difference in the need, whether muslim or not, but, what happens next is where the differentiation occurs. Generally, the lender has to take the risk. If the business goes belly up, the lender cannot expect compensation. (I am not talking about the morals of the borrower here). The lender can only expect to get back his loan if the borrower does well enough to pay him back. Even then, it must be the amount borrowed, not anything more unless the borrower insists to share his profits with the lender. Here it reinforces the belief that what you own, your wealth etc, is an amanah loaned to you by Allah. He can take it back from you anytime. So do good things, and expect nothing in return. That is a very hard concept in this day and age.

So if the best result you can get is to gain back exactly what you gave, and there's a risk of getting back less or nothing, how do you suggest convincing anyone to provide anyone else credit?

What you are suggesting is, in essence, to run an entire financial system on philantrophy. If it turns out that funding isn't forthcoming, what will you do? Keep insisting that your system is perfect and that the problem is with sinful people?

 

[Ahmad H]

Where does it say it is a 'God given appointment'? A caliphate isn't a theology, it isn't a papacy and there's no need to wait for a mahdi to start at all, just takes will and basic understanding and lack of division.

Read:
24:55 Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.

And read Tafsir Ibn Kathir under it.

 

[جوري]

Read:
24:55 Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.

And read Tafsir Ibn Kathir under it.

I have read it indeed.. in a nutshell the meek shall inherit the earth:
{ وعد الله الذين آمنوا منكم وعملوا الصالحات ليستخلفنهم في الأرض } بدلا عن الكفار { كما استخلف } بالبناء للفاعل والمفعول { الذين من قبلهم } من بنى إسرائيل بدلا عن الجبارة { وليمكنن لهم دينهم الذي أرتضى لهم } وهو الإسلام بأن يظهر على جميع الأديان ويوسع لهم في البلاد فيملكوها { وَلَيُبْدلَنَّهُمْ } بالتخفيف والتشديد { من بعد خوفهم } من الكفار { أمنا } وقد أنجز الله وعده لهم بما ذكر وأثنى عليهم بقوله: { يعبدونني لا يشركون بي شيئا } هو مستأنف في حكم التعليل { ومن كفر بعد ذلك } الإنعام منهم به { فأولئك هم الفاسقون } وأول من كفر به قتلة عثمان رضي الله عنه فصاروا يقتتلون بعد أن كانوا إخوانا

I'd like to know how you personally inferred that no caliphate can be established without mahdi or at the hands of Muslims or that it is some sort of theological institution that's 'God appointed'?

 

[Ahmad H]

I'd like to know how you personally inferred that no caliphate can be established without mahdi or at the hands of Muslims or that it is some sort of theological institution that's 'God appointed'?

One only needs to read the Hadith:

"There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method" and then he remained silent (Ahmed)

So Caliphate is removed and is then re-instituted. In the Tafsir Ibn Kathir he writes that:

(But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the rebellious.) means, `whoever then stops obeying Me after that, has stopped obeying the command of his Lord, and that is a great sin.' The Companions -- may Allah be pleased with them -- were the most committed of people after the Prophet to the commands of Allah and the most obedient to Allah. Their victories were in accordance with their level of commitment. They caused the Word of Allah to prevail in the east and the west, and Allah supported them so much that they governed all the people and all the lands. When the people subsequently fell short in their commitment to some of the commandments, their strength and victory fell short accordingly, but it is confirmed through more than one route in the Two Sahihs that the Messenger of Allah said:
(There will remain a group of my Ummah adhering to the truth, and those who forsake them or oppose them will not harm them until the Day of Resurrection. ) According to another report:
(.. until the command of Allah comes to pass and they are like that.) According to another report:
(... until they fight the Dajjal.) According to another report:
(... until `Isa bin Maryam comes down and they are prevailing.) All of these reports are Sahih, and there is no contradiction between them.


So the Caliphate ends, and then it returns once again. It would have to be sometime after Isa (as) descends. What else would the Prophetic example (nubuwwat) mean? It clearly indicates that it would be re-instated by someone who would have contact with the unseen (Allah).

And have you not read verse 24:55? It says clearly that Allah grants the believers the succession and inheritance in the land, not the believers themselves. Obviously it is something God-given. And it would be through the Mahdi (as) because that would be when Islam becomes victorious again and the Muslims begin to follow Islam as it should be followed. There is no other time in the future when Caliphate would be re-established except for that. It is counter-intuitive to accept things that way.

 

[جوري]

we've had a caliphate style system albeit an oppressive one until the dissolution of the Ottomans - Yes the hadith tells us that a khilafah akin to the Rashidun shall return :ia: when :Allah::swt: wills but do you think it will happen unless the people themselves are ready for it? It isn't a surgical removal where people are going to go from split to 100% overnight. In fact we should do all we can so that when that day comes of khilafah rashida it would click all around.. I believe what is going on in the Muslim world today is part of this :ia: especially in Syria for that is the spot where Isa :saws: is meant to descend.. It isn't a radical change and nothing in life is ever radical it is always a small accretion, the people have to be ready for it and have to deserve it and have earned it.

and :Allah::swt: knows best.

 

[Ahmad H]

You are very right. Or it could also mean that overnight, there would come someone to guide the Muslims, and the Muslims would find a major change. But not all of them, since this overall change would take time.

Look at the example of the Holy Prophet (saw) and all of the other Prophets. There were those who were changed overnight, and many others who did not change. It took time to get everyone else to follow. This is a possibility as well. Remember, Allah guides everyone not people guiding themselves. This change could well be sparked by Allah just as it has been done in the past. It takes a very righteous individual to change people. That good company itself would make those around him become new and full of vigor with the light of faith in them.

I agree that it is not overnight though. These changes take time. I just think there is another way in which it is possible as well. And as always, Allah knows best in the end.

 

[greenhill]

M.I.A. - I am not so sure what you are trying to say. But "so why would i need a caliphate if i believe in a god?" and if the God is Allah, it would be best to live in a land where they practice the sunnah and is guided by the Quran.


Futuwwa - "So if the best result you can get is to gain back exactly what you gave, and there's a risk of getting back less or nothing, how do you suggest convincing anyone to provide anyone else credit?

What you are suggesting is, in essence, to run an entire financial system on philantrophy. If it turns out that funding isn't forthcoming, what will you do? Keep insisting that your system is perfect and that the problem is with sinful people?"

Apologies for the misunderstanding. No, it is not what I am suggesting - to run the system on philanthropy. Things are very different now. We are now marketing 'wants' as opposed to 'needs' and even then, they are trying to make everything a 'need' now. Commerce is cut throat and ethical practice is pretty much out of the window in most cases. And when the economic climate takes a downturn, it's the needs that stays stable in demand and the 'wants' take a tumble.

The essence of Islam is about 'moderation'. Hence pure business thoughts for huge profits and for luxuries then kinds of strays from the overall concept. So I guess growth will be slower, and if credit cannot be obtain to start a business, perhaps they may have to take a look at the downscaling it a bit or do other things, seek employment, etc. I have no real answers for this as we are looking at modern financial/commercial system and trying to compare it to a muslim moderation approach. And no again, it is NOT my system, and I already said that we are not discussing about the morals of the borrower here.

There are wide ranging 'codes' of conduct in enterprise under islam for example, we should not leave our lands idle, and if cannot work it, we should allow his 'brother' to cultivate it so the distribution of wealth does happen. Rather than the 'hog' everything we can of the current day style. Again, this is very brief. Hope you get my 'gist'.

Peace

 

[M.I.A.]

M.I.A. - I am not so sure what you are trying to say. But "so why would i need a caliphate if i believe in a god?" and if the God is Allah, it would be best to live in a land where they practice the sunnah and is guided by the Quran.

it means i believe in a god above man..

how that fits into a world of men and men.. is something that needs to be thought about.

what that makes of you depends on what you wanted, probably.


there is no compulsion within religion.

there is not much of anything really..


also i like multiculturalism.



...i guess your next line of questioning should be if you think its all god and men, where do angels exist?

 

[greenhill]

Thank you M.I.A, deep thoughts but I don't see it within the context of the thread.

Multiculturalism is the world we live in. I like too! ;D

No, never really questioned where do angels exist or the Jinns. All I know is that they do exist.

 

[Said_Soussi]

 

[Akeyi]

There will be another Khalif or Congress of Khalif which has same power of Khalif has.

 

[M.I.A.]

Thank you M.I.A, deep thoughts but I don't see it within the context of the thread.

Multiculturalism is the world we live in. I like too! ;D

No, never really questioned where do angels exist or the Jinns. All I know is that they do exist.

lol its been three years.. ironic that you mentioned philanthropy..

as its been three years since i opened my business.

and it has literally been a struggle..

i would say enlightening.. but it is the incorrect term..

it has been a struggle.

and to some people it may be easy. provide a service.. recieve a payment.

but i found the whole process humiliating. it is very much a battle of attrition..

i am broken in understanding that allah swt does not require hard work..

and that provision is written regardless of opening hours.

and yet i will work the hours and ironically the doors will stay open for as long as they can..

the prices will stay the lowest.. they have not increased in 3 years..

the scales will always give you a little bit more rather than less..

ironically the opposite of what most customers want.

but they wont know. i didnt tell them.

the thieves have gone on to better jobs lol. i cant understand what it takes.

..maybe that is why most people keep a weeks wage and a weeks bill in hand.

..lol

i only owe the guy that put me here. it has been a learning experience.

who have i learn from lol? the room.

although im sure it doesnt own the world.

probably. o_0

my life is a protest lol, most people dont notice.. i have to step put of the way.

O you who have believed, why do you say what you do not do?

...whouldnt it be creepy if people actually did what they say.


i stick to my original answer..

all power and might is with allah swt alone.

he raises and lowers as he wills, it is there..

in every language, every penny, every tool, every weapon..

and it is a humbling experience.

not exactly what i wanted.


...i have no idea what this has to do with the caliphate thread, just thought i would reply anway.

it is upsetting to not have a different answer after 3 years, ..

it would be a lot easier if i could just tell you how to make money.

..cant really?

there is guilt in even taking it sometimes.

i should learn to write better.. maybe have a really fast car in a couple years.