Can a Muslim, literally, be kafir for not praying salah..?

[azc]

[MENTION=38691]Yahya.[/MENTION]

I did not state that not praying Muslims are falling into kufr. Most scholars share the opinion that they are in a state of major sinning, but nevertheless still in the fold of Islam.

nobody denies it

As for what makes somebody a kafir - rejecting a verse of the Quran or a rule that is evidently derived of it, like salaah; uttering words and performing actions that lead to kufr(alfaz wa af'al al kufr); and any other action that is stated to be kufr by the Quran and the Sunnah.

nobody denies it

The general methodology of Ahl as Sunnah is that if there are 99 evidences for Kufr and one evidence for Islam.

It's self contradictory.

You are applying penalty of execution for 1 evidence of sinning due to laziness whereas, in contrast, you are defending 99 evidences of kufr.

Like brother @ Al Khorasani has addressed, the penalty of execution is applied as a hukm in itself for not praying - not as a penalty of apostasy. So, they are basically executed as 'lazy Muslims not praying'

No, penalty of execution isn't applied to fisq.

Any other punishment can be applied here.

See your post again. This part of your post is self contradictory.

 

[Yahya.]

It's self contradictory.

You are applying penalty of execution for 1 evidence of sinning due to laziness whereas, in contrast, you are defending 99 evidences of kufr.

Like brother @ Al Khorasani has addressed, the penalty of execution is applied as a hukm in itself for not praying - not as a penalty of apostasy. So, they are basically executed as 'lazy Muslims not praying'
No, penalty of execution isn't applied to fisq.

Any other punishment can be applied here.

See your post again. This part of your post is self contradictory.

It is not self-contradictory. How can something be contradictory if it is not pertaining logic? Penalties are a different layer beside Belief.
The saying with the 99:1 proportion is a wisdom concerning judgement in doubtful matters. You should not take it literally. It is stated by Ibn Abidin, a famous scholar of the later Ottoman period. His book Raddul Mukhtar is one of the great Hanafi fiqh references.

Penalty of execution is not applied to fisq. That is the general rule. However, the scholars and judges might decide on the penalty of the person. And in the case of salaah, as it is a major pillar of Islam, they judge upon death penalty (Hanbalis, Malikis and Shafiis) or imprisonment till tauba (Hanafis).

What is your intention in opening this topic, if you already know the rule?

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I just have a few minor disagreements (e.g their strong belief in Taqlid), but they are still perfectly acceptable Muslims and most of their opinions are legitimate differences, not crazy things like permitting music or shrines.

Then I do not understand why you distinguish them with "at least", as if they were inferior to Salafis... If everyone acts like this, there can never be unity among Muslims. You are certainly aware that there are many Deobandi or reminiscent Muslims in this forum, yet your statement contains the mood that Salafiyyah is the sole right path and everyone reading you approves of this axiom.

There is nothing wrong in Taqlid. Why shouldn't ordinary people who lack knowledge follow those who possess it? Are you advocating that they should judge the evidences of the Shariah themselves? With the scarce knowledge they possess?

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Imaam Ahmad said that the one who does not pray because of laziness is a kaafir. This is the more correct view and is that indicated by the evidence of the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger, and by the words of the Salaf and the proper understanding. (Al-Sharh al-Mumti’ ‘ala Zaad al-Mustanqi’, 2/26).

It was narrated that Buraydah ibn al-Husayb (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘The covenant that distinguishes between us and them is the prayer, and whoever neglects it has disbelieved (become a kaafir).’” (It was narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nisaa’i and Ibn Maajah).

At-Tabaraani narrated in al-Mu‘jam al-Kabeer (8941) with a saheeh isnaad from ‘Abdullah ibn Mas‘ood (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: “Whoever does not pray has no religion.”


https://islamqa.info/en/5208

Sunnah over fatwas, prophet (S) over scholars.
Islam (Quran and sunnah) over opinions, simple facts over eloquent speakers and deceivers.

You are neither quoting the Quran, nor the Sunnah. You are quoting Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid. Please don't fool yourself. The Quran and the Sunnah is Arabic. I wonder whether you know Arabic, brother... If yes, what is your degree of knowledge? Have you mastered nahv, sarf, balaghah etc. Have you studied Quranic sciences like asbab an-nuzul, an-nasikh wa'l mansukh etc. Have you studied the Hadith sciences? It is obvious that an ordinary person busy with work and family is not capable of reaching the level of ijtihad - the level of deriving judgements from the Quran and the Sunnah. It is the mercy of Allah that he did not obligate this upon us. An ordinary person will ask his local mufti on the rules concerning his matters and follow these rules. It does not matter whether that mufti is Hanafi, Shafii, Maliki or Hanbali. You claim that you are independent of madhahib, yet Salih al-Munajjid and most Saudi scholars are basing their views on the Hanbali school and on Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya who, along Hanbaliyya, has some distinct views.

Let's say I am convinced of what you have said. What should I do now? I am abandoning every single knowledge I read in Hanfi fiqh books or heard from scholars surrounding me. Should I start reading the verses and ahadith narrated in internet pages and then follow my own judgement? Or shall I follow the conclusion reached in those pages? If I am supposed to follow those conclusion, then it is obvious that these conclusions do in no way differ from the conclusions reached by former scholars, who, as one may claim, were more knowledgeable than the contemporary.

 

[azc]

[MENTION=38691]Yahya.[/MENTION]
Plz see OP:
No need to emphasise on separation, takfir correspondingly entails divorce.

But it's too harsh.

 

[talibilm]

Just saw some discussions here that even speak of killing - executing a muslim who does not pray fard salah. (even a murtad will not be executed until tried by the muslim ruler or a Sharia court )

I thinks that's gone too far and It contradicts this hadith and also a statement from the council of Ulamaa of Calipha of Umar junior RA from a sahih hadith of Bukhari or Muslim( i will list it inshalllah when i find)

DO NOT TAKFIR

Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2526 Narrated Anas ibn Malik:The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist). The tyranny of any tyrant and the justice of any just (ruler) will not invalidate it. One must have faith in Divine decree.

Such idealogy will be misused and could be taken individually by less knowledgeable but salah maintaining muslims who might take it a green light to kill a non praying muslim leading to more fitna and by even hypocrites to trouble the better muslims when compared to them. And this what is one of the reason behind ISIS killings .


A believer while doing a big sin or at the time of committing them is in a state of KUFR (Rejection) but when he comes out he is SINNED MUSLIM unless if Allah accepts his repentance.



11:118. And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one Ummah [nation or community (following one religion only i.e. Islâm)], but they will not cease to disagree,-

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11:119. Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His Mercy (the follower of truth - Islâmic Monotheism) and for that did He create them. And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled (i.e. His Saying): "Surely, I shall fill Hell with jinns and men all together." ​

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[Yahya.]

Brother @talibilm , I think you misunderstood the posts or you have not read them thoroughly. The hadith you quoted is a general statement. The views of the ulama refer to a particular case - that of one who does not pray. This is the rule of the madhahib scholars:

And in the case of salaah, as it is a major pillar of Islam, they judge upon death penalty (Hanbalis, Malikis and Shafiis) or imprisonment till tauba (Hanafis).

And this matter is exceeding the topic of 'takfir on major sins', which is occurring here.

 

[Alamgir]

It is not self-contradictory. How can something be contradictory if it is not pertaining logic? Penalties are a different layer beside Belief.
The saying with the 99:1 proportion is a wisdom concerning judgement in doubtful matters. You should not take it literally. It is stated by Ibn Abidin, a famous scholar of the later Ottoman period. His book Raddul Mukhtar is one of the great Hanafi fiqh references.

Penalty of execution is not applied to fisq. That is the general rule. However, the scholars and judges might decide on the penalty of the person. And in the case of salaah, as it is a major pillar of Islam, they judge upon death penalty (Hanbalis, Malikis and Shafiis) or imprisonment till tauba (Hanafis).

What is your intention in opening this topic, if you already know the rule?

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Then I do not understand why you distinguish them with "at least", as if they were inferior to Salafis... If everyone acts like this, there can never be unity among Muslims. You are certainly aware that there are many Deobandi or reminiscent Muslims in this forum, yet your statement contains the mood that Salafiyyah is the sole right path and everyone reading you approves of this axiom.

There is nothing wrong in Taqlid. Why shouldn't ordinary people who lack knowledge follow those who possess it? Are you advocating that they should judge the evidences of the Shariah themselves? With the scarce knowledge they possess?

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You are neither quoting the Quran, nor the Sunnah. You are quoting Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid. Please don't fool yourself. The Quran and the Sunnah is Arabic. I wonder whether you know Arabic, brother... If yes, what is your degree of knowledge? Have you mastered nahv, sarf, balaghah etc. Have you studied Quranic sciences like asbab an-nuzul, an-nasikh wa'l mansukh etc. Have you studied the Hadith sciences? It is obvious that an ordinary person busy with work and family is not capable of reaching the level of ijtihad - the level of deriving judgements from the Quran and the Sunnah. It is the mercy of Allah that he did not obligate this upon us. An ordinary person will ask his local mufti on the rules concerning his matters and follow these rules. It does not matter whether that mufti is Hanafi, Shafii, Maliki or Hanbali. You claim that you are independent of madhahib, yet Salih al-Munajjid and most Saudi scholars are basing their views on the Hanbali school and on Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya who, along Hanbaliyya, has some distinct views.

Let's say I am convinced of what you have said. What should I do now? I am abandoning every single knowledge I read in Hanfi fiqh books or heard from scholars surrounding me. Should I start reading the verses and ahadith narrated in internet pages and then follow my own judgement? Or shall I follow the conclusion reached in those pages? If I am supposed to follow those conclusion, then it is obvious that these conclusions do in no way differ from the conclusions reached by former scholars, who, as one may claim, were more knowledgeable than the contemporary.

My problem is sticking to one school of thought only, which is what many Deobandis do (they are pure Hanafis). Also, there is the whole Mawlid issue, lack of Niqab, and other small things that I disagree with, hence my use of the term "at least".

 

[azc]

My problem is sticking to one school of thought only, which is what many Deobandis do (they are pure Hanafis). Also, there is the whole Mawlid issue, lack of Niqab, and other small things that I disagree with, hence my use of the term "at least".

I think he has already clarified the solution of ''your problem''. Read his post again.

I think you should change your views instead of changing others.

 

[cinnamonrolls1]

I find it hard to believe some of us still use this extremist website to resolve their daily islamic affairs.

Just before i even get pass the 3rd paragraph and they're already calling for the execution of fellow muslims who happen to believe that the 5 daily prayers in islam isn't an obligation?!:Emoji17:
In a way, a person who chooses to regard the 5 obligatory daily prayers as non obligatory despite being shown proof, can be considered a (minor) kafir, but NOT in terms of monotheism or the general message (risaala) of islam. So he can still be considered a muslim. Just not a practicing one. And in terms of whether a spouse can be intimate with their partner who doesnt practice the 5 daily prayers, well id argue that their still muslim even if they dont pray, so whats the problem?

Honestly, i agree with you.
Yes, you're sinning, but you're still technically a muslim as you're still believing in God etc.

 

[cinnamonrolls1]

Asalamu Alaikum

No, it's not (still pretty terrible though).

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Asalamu Alaikum

Apostasy is considered MUCH worse than regular kufr.

Kufr itself can simply be a case of ignorance, apostates willingly choose to abandon the haq.

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Asalamu Alaikum

The sub-continent is practically bidah central, and it doesn't help that it produces the most Islamic literature in the world. We need more Salafis or at the very least Deobandis in that region.

As for one who does not pray, if it is a regular occurrence for a lengthy period of time, Shafis and Malikis traditionally considered it grounds for execution, but still considered the individual Muslim. The Hanbalis considered and still consider it as a form of apostasy. Either way, the majority of scholars traditionally agreed that it was serious enough to warrant execution.

Ugh, all yall talk about is the sub continent. Find something else to talk about seriously

 

[azc]

[MENTION=41024]cinnamonrolls1[/MENTION]:

some people on the board have misconceptions about subcontinent Muslims.
You can't convince them

 

[Alamgir]

Ugh, all yall talk about is the sub continent. Find something else to talk about seriously

Asalamu Alaikum

I didn't bring it up, someone else did.

Anyway, this whole "sub-continent" term is ridiculous. Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Hindustanis are all different to each other culturally and ancestrally in pretty major ways (e.g Pakistan has the largest Pashtun population in the world and no Dravidians), people can't seem to agree on the geographical boundaries of this made up region (e.g is Afghanistan part of it or not), and historically it's rarely ever been a thing (e.g most of Pakistan was usually either considered it's own unique region, or considered part of Khorasan).

 

[azc]

Solution:

We shouldn't listen to the scholars who always criticize other Muslim.

 

[Zzz_]

Solution:

We shouldn't listen to the scholars who always criticize other Muslim.

Scholars don't criticize other Muslims. Scholars warn of bad and deviant Muslims as commanded by Allah. How little you think of the scholars to accuse them of such...

 

[azc]

Scholars don't criticize other Muslims. Scholars warn of bad and deviant Muslims as commanded by Allah. How little you think of the scholars to accuse them of such...

Yes, it's about some fitnah mongering scholars (of every sect) who create hatred in the heart of their followers against other Muslims.

We need to spread the msg of love and brotherhood.

A kafir doesn't differentiate between you and a barelvi, both are Muslims in his eyes, however, it's a different matter that you are sending each other into hell and proudly claiming to be on right path.

Fact is that if all the fatwas are literally accepted then nobody is going into heaven and it will remain unoccupied.

 

[Zzz_]

Yes, it's about some fitnah mongering scholars (of every sect) who create hatred in the heart of their followers against other Muslims.

We need to spread the msg of love and brotherhood.

A kafir doesn't differentiate between you and a barelvi, both are Muslims in his eyes, however, it's a different matter that you are sending each other into hell and proudly claiming to be on right path.

Fact is that if all the fatwas are literally accepted then nobody is going into heaven and it will remain unoccupied.

Your message of love and brotherhood you speak of comes from your deviant fitna mongering tariq jameel. The shia are the same in that they want everyone to love and treat everyone equally, which is what yasir qadhi was parroting when gave his bayyah to the shia. It's a new tactic of the deviant sects to avoid getting criticized and called out for their deviance against Islam.

Ahle Sunnah Wal Jammah is the victorious group and will inshallah go to jannah. They are the ones who follow the Quran and the Sunnah and per that hadith are on the right path. We know who is deviant and who on the right path, we know whose fatwas to accept and whose not to accept. We don't need you trying to dilute Islam with your deviant ideas and trying to misguide the Muslims here.

 

[talibilm]

Yes, it's about some fitnah mongering scholars (of every sect) who create hatred in the heart of their followers against other Muslims.

We need to spread the msg of love and brotherhood.

A kafir doesn't differentiate between you and a barelvi, both are Muslims in his eyes, however, it's a different matter that you are sending each other into hell and proudly claiming to be on right path.

Fact is that if all the fatwas are literally accepted then nobody is going into heaven and it will remain unoccupied.

iTS TO BE AGREED UNITY AMONG MUSLIMS IS MOST IMPORTANT UNLESS SUCH SO CALLED MUSLIMS WHO DO KUFR AKBAR OR SHIRK IN THE NAME OF ISLAM, WE COULD NEVER BE UNITED WITH THEM .

JUST SEE A VERSE HERE HOW MUCH IMPORTANCE DID HARUN AS ( stationed and honoured by Allah in the skies now and Prophet :saws: met him during his Mihraj ) gave to UNITY proves my opinion.

20:92. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "O Hârûn (Aaron)! What stopped you when you saw them going astray;
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93. "That you followed me not (according to my advice to you)? Have you then disobeyed my order?"

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94. He [Hârûn (Aaron)] said: "O son of my mother! Seize (me) not by my beard, nor by my head! Verily, I feared lest you should say: 'You have caused a division among the Children of Israel, and you have not respected my word!' "​

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We knew some sahabas hid some hadith until nearing death lest they feared their brethren will stop trying for higher aamal just depending on this hadith

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 3 :: Hadith 130 Narrated Anas bin Malik:"Once Mu'adh was along with Allah's Apostle as a companion rider. Allah's Apostle said, "O Mu'adh bin Jabal." Mu'adh replied, "Labbaik and Sa'daik. O Allah's Apostle!" Again the Prophet said, "O Mu'adh!" Mu'adh said thrice, "Labbaik and Sa'daik, O Allah's Apostle!" Allah's Apostle said, "There is none who testifies sincerely that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is his Apostle, except that Allah, will save him from the Hell-fire." Mu'adh said, "O Allah's Apostle ! Should I not inform the people about it so that they may have glad tidings?" He replied, "When the people hear about it, they will solely depend on it." Then Mu'adh narrated the above-mentioned Hadith just before his death, being afraid of committing sin (by not telling the knowledge).

Similarly i never quote this Sahih hadith which said that in later times if they do 1/10 of the amal of them (sahabas) even in my MOST IMPORTANT thread of ' Overlooked Hadith ' since I FEAR Muslims and even Muhmins will slacken their efforts in Deen.

So while this post must not MISINTERPRETATED or its not a green light to leave salah (even one time since even a Muslim patient in ICU had do his salah (if he is in his sense) while still laying on his bed ) but going far to the extent of calling execution or killing or treating him as a Murtad is incorrect in these days of utmost fitna will even barr non muslims entering Islam imo

Allah knows the best

May Allah guide us All to his guided right path.

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[MuhammadHamza1]

We have no choice but to follow the salaf.The Salaf have regarded it impermissible to unite with the Ahlul Bid'ah.
The issue should not be that it is to strict.The issue is weather Islam calls for strictness or not.This can only be comprehended when you realize that what Islam says is perfect without fault.With that being said,it is upon us to prove these people deviant and misguided with whom we do not unite.

 

[leun]

Also, i dont know if you have read some of their very controversial statements and fatwas but i have, and i can tell you they're bad ... really really bad! :facepalm:
I wont post anything about it here but if you would like i could private message you and show you just how extreme and irrational these guys really are ...

Can you send it to me????

 

[happy muslim]

No. Allah knows.

 

[M.I.A.]

I saw a video by a shaykh about the night prayer.. I tried to find it again but couldn't otherwise I would have posted it.

But he said, very loosely paraphrased, that those people who preform the night prayer do so by the permission/tawfiq of Allah swt..

He said most people cannot, in terms of obtaining it or keeping hold of it.

..and that's the concept.

We all differ in our closeness to Allah swt and its forever changing if you let it.

At what level you want to keep your Iman and your understanding of how it affects your actions and intention decide your permanent position.


As in most cases..You could give up the wife but who wants that for you?

I wouldn't call many unbelievers or kafir, when it's usually just a reflection of my own bad habits.

It's just my viewpoint at present.

Because I live with strangers.

I suppose you really could go around calling people kafir and passing judgement..

But that's a path of your own choosing, you cant let it blind you to the way they approach.


Now that I think about it the video must have been on the forum somewhere.. most probably.