Can Ahadith Be Authenticated

[جوري]

Continue?...I read it.

If you've why do you continue on with the psycho babble?
the rest of your garbage can be binned. I don't know how many times I need to repeat to you so you'd understand that I don't indulge personal opinions presented as facts!
You don't wish to accept ahadith, don't. But you must also not accept the Quran because they're indeed a package deal!

best,

 

[جوري]

There is no legitimate method for authenticating isnads.

This is the 'evidence' that your alleged argument comes down to? What is legitimate in your learned opinion?

 

[kidcanman]

If you've why do you continue on with the psycho babble?
the rest of your garbage can be binned. I don't know how many times I need to repeat to you so you'd understand that I don't indulge personal opinions presented as facts!

You've been very disrespectful to me and my intelligence, but I don't mind.

I won't reciprocate.

 

[جوري]

What's your 'intelligence'? Where have you made an intelligent well presented argument that doesn't deal with generalities or borrow from anti islamic rhetoric that has been thoroughly refuted!
In fact I'd been generous to cl blanket statements an argument at all!

 

[kidcanman]

This is the 'evidence' that your alleged argument comes down to? What is legitimate in your learned opinion?

Of course if you seriously examined my evidence you would not have asked this question.

If there were a way to determine if a chain used in the authentication process, was not a product of one of the earliest scholars "projecting back" then the authentication method would be more complete and more legitimate.

 

[Insaanah]

By the grace and mercy of Allah (swt) on us. We don't need to be a scholar to authenticate the quran.

You haven't answered my question, which I'll repeat again.

You accept the Qur'an as being what was revealed to the prophet :saws: but don't accept the hadeeth as what the prophet :saws: said.

When the Qur'an was revealed, it's transmission was primarily orally, by mortals, men and women, with some verses being written as well. The Qur'an was collected together after the Prophets :saws: death.

When Jibreel :as: revealed the verses to the Prophet :saws:, he recited them, those around him heard and learned, memorised, taught others etc, and some wrote them down.

Allah has guaranteed to preserve the Qur'an, but how do you know that that verse or indeed any other, is correct?

Since you are of a doubting nature, you need to know about the transmission of every verse in the Qur'an, who transmitted it, how it was known that person was trustworthy etc, and all the other methodology used.

Please provide an isnaad and transmission details for every verse in the Qur'an, bearing in mind you only believe in the Qur'an, and that nothing in the text of the Quran explicitly mentions in detail how the text of the Quran has come from Allah to the reader in an authentic way.

 

[kidcanman]

Allah has guaranteed to preserve the Qur'an, but how do you know that that verse or indeed any other, is correct?

As I stated:

"The quran does not have any contradictions".

There are other reasons why I know, but this is one answer to your question. If you don't agree with it then show me why.

Since you are of a doubting nature, you need to know about the transmission of every verse in the Qur'an, who transmitted it, how it was known that person was trustworthy etc, and all the other methodology used.

I just showed you one way how to determine that the quran is from God without all of this...

Please provide an isnaad and transmission details for every verse in the Qur'an, bearing in mind you only believe in the Qur'an, and that nothing in the text of the Quran explicitly mentions in detail how the text of the Quran has come from Allah to the reader in an authentic way.

You don't need this to authenticate the Quran. Allah (sws) provided better ways. One of which I showed you in answer to your question

Isnaads are what man created to authenticate ahadith.

 

[جوري]

Of course if you seriously examined my evidence you would not have asked this question.

If there were a way to determine if a chain used in the authentication process, was not a product of one of the earliest scholars "projecting back" then the authentication method would be more complete and more legitimate.

What does this mean exactly? or are you throwing random **** in the air hoping it would hit the fan and stick where it can't be removed?
Do you have a specific Hadith in question that is bothering you? Do you have a person in mind whose character you wish to cast doubt upon or you just want to waste time being oh all so pseudo intellect on us?

best,

 

[kidcanman]

What does this mean exactly?

You've been insulting my position and putting down my arguments and this whole time you don't even understand them.

I've gone into enough detail. Go read carefully, my initial post; my exact arguments are there; still awaiting refutation.

 

[جوري]

You've been insulting my position and putting down my arguments and this whole time you don't even understand them.
I've gone into enough detail. Go read carefully, my initial post; my exact arguments are there; still awaiting refutation.

Thank God for your brilliant mind .. what's the matter don't you know how to break down your brilliant 'argument' for us simpletons?

 

[kidcanman]

Read the original post carefully. It is there; broken down.

 

[جوري]

I already have, I broke it down to exactly one sentence, the sentence was thoroughly refuted. Establishments of schools for Sunnah & teachings of the prophet were started in Medina shortly after his arrival and his sunnah can be traced to his person and in very first post you quoted and tried to take apart but couldn't although we enjoyed your laughable attempt. Every tradition can be traced back exactly to the prophet himself.
can be verified here:
http://www.abc.se/home/m9783/ir/d2/shla_e.pdf
If you've a particular issue with a hadith then bring it for ahel al'ilm to shed light. You make blanket statements that are borrowed from folks so undereducated that a fifth grader can take it apart with a mere example.. so that makes you what by proxy?
What are you afraid of? If you truly had something substantive then stand by it and prove it, don't drop accusations and run away from explaining yourself when it comes down to the nity gritty!

best,

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Of course if you seriously examined my evidence you would not have asked this question.

Evidence? You have not provided anything until now except for hypothetical assertions.

 

[جوري]

Evidence? You have not provided anything until now except for hypothetical assertions.

To be honest I don't think he quite understands the difference!

 

[kidcanman]

I already have, I broke it down to exactly one sentence

Right

the sentence was thoroughly refuted.

Wrong.

You referred me to a book. A book that I have already read and one that I'm not impressed by.

It appears as though you did not read the book, because if you did, and if the book has such concrete refutations, then you would have presented them.

You have not personally refuted a single one of my points.

Establishments of schools for Sunnah & teachings of the prophet were started in Medina shortly after his arrival

Schools for Sunnah?...which schools for Sunnah? Shortly after the prohet's (sas) arrival in Medina huh?

I think you made that up.

and his sunnah can be traced to his person

That is what an isnad is!! A chain that is traced back to the prophet (sas). And that is what is in dispute.

Every tradition can be traced back exactly to the prophet himself

Of course, all "authentic" traditions are traced back to the prophet. We're discussing whether or not the tracing is legitimate.

can be verified here:
http://www.abc.se/home/m9783/ir/d2/shla_e.pdf

I'm not interested in another book that you probably have never read. If you learned some insight from this book then present your arguments here.

If you've a particular issue with a hadith then bring it for ahel al'ilm to shed light. You make blanket statements that are borrowed from folks so undereducated that a fifth grader can take it apart with a mere example.. so that makes you what by proxy?
What are you afraid of? If you truly had something substantive then stand by it and prove it, don't drop accusations and run away from explaining yourself when it comes down to the nity gritty!

best,

All of this is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[جوري]

Right

Yup!

Wrong.

That's your opinion which is irrelevant!

You referred me to a book. A book that I have already read and one that I'm not impressed by.

We can't help what impresses you or doesn't impress you, what matters is that it is historical, accurate and properly referenced!

It appears as though you did not read the book, because if you did, and if the book has such concrete refutations, then you would have presented them.

Present what to what exactly? You proclaim the ahadiths aren't authentic. That's your opinion you've not evidence based that opinion in a scholastic, historical verifiable fashion!

You have not personally refuted a single one of my points.

As stated and repeatedly you haven't presented any points. Everyone else is telling you the same thing perhaps you ought to take heed over your wounded pride you might learn something!

Schools for Sunnah?...which schools for Sunnah? Shortly after the prohet's (sas) arrival in Medina huh?

I think you made that up.

It is right there in the book that you allegedly read properly referenced with a long chain of narrators not unlike the first post which you've paid no attention to!

That is what an isnad is!! A chain that is traced back to the prophet (sas). And that is what is in dispute.

You've not disputed, you've rebuffed it aside. You said it was unimpressive a little later said I was making it up even though it is right there in the book which I linked which you'd allegedly read!

Of course, all "authentic" traditions are traced back to the prophet. We're discussing whether or not the tracing is legitimate.

And you've not shown its illegitimacy. You've cast doubt on the characters involved with a mere sentence would you like to evince what you say either about the ahadiths in questions or the characters involved?

I'm not interested in another book that you probably have never read. If you learned some insight from this book then present your arguments here.

It is clear you're projecting just given your previous statements. At least exonerate yourself by clicking on the link and reading partial content before writing to loan your position some credence!

All of this is irrelevant to the discussion.

That's an adequate assessment of what you're attempting here!

best,

 

[kidcanman]

Evidence? You have not provided anything until now except for hypothetical assertions.

Actually when i stated in my original post that,"the application of the science of isnads has in many cases produced "authentic" hadith that have turned out to be false or contradictory".

I cited Imam Shafi'i. Who is considered by sunni muslims to be the founder of Islamic jurisprudence. In his book, "Kitab Ikhtilaf Al-Hadith", on page 365, the founder of Islamic jurisprudence states, "We are not much embarrassed by the fact that well-authenticated traditions disagree or are thought to disagree, and the specialist on traditions are not embarrassed by traditions that are likely to be erroneous and the like of which are not well authenticated"

Is that a hypothetical assertion? Or is it evidence

And when addressing the idea of "projecting back" I also cited Imam Shafii where the founder of Islamic jurisprudence said in his book "Risala" on page 64, "he who scrutinizes the traditional foundations of the legal doctrines with competence and accuracy, is staggard by the mursal(which means the narrator between the successor and the prophet is omitted from the isnad) traditions of all who are not prominent Successors"

This is EVIDENCEthat scholars did indeed project back.

 

[جوري]

by the way this is for the other members because it is clear I am wasting my time with this guy:

this is what he proclaims I am making up, or that I haven't read at all while he read and it unimpressed him!

 

[جوري]

And when addressing the idea of "projecting back" I also cited Imam Shafii were he said in his book "Risala" on page 64

btw here are the entire explanation to imam Shafi' 'Arisaala!

this is one video out of the entire series
perhaps you can show us how imam shafi 'scrutinizes the traditional foundation for competence & accuracy''? You're of course well versed and well schooled and your Arabic is stellar so I'll be waiting!

best,

 

[kidcanman]

"He used to tell the questioner to stay with him and learn by observing him practice"

Is that a school for Sunnah?...
Did the prophet (sas) practice studying Isnad chains?

"Schools were established by the prophet in madina very soon after his arrival"

Were those Schools for sunnah?... FOR Sunnah? Were the purpose of those schools to teach sunnah?

Or did they learn how to recite and study Quran? Did they study the meaning of the Quran?

I don't doubt that the practices of the Prophet were taught there as well, but those schools were not created just to teach Sunnah.

Did they study isnads there?

No they didn't

That was a later thing