Can God lie?

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So why would God help humans if he does not benefit? The question was asked: How does God benefit from lying? God does not benefit from anything obviously since Islam believes God is infinite.

God gains no benefit from kindness just like he gains no benefit from lies.

It is upto you to now provide a miracle from the Quran that is as you have allegedly stated not impressive. Burdon of proof is upon you since you bought it to the table.
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The Quran says in Surah At-Tariq the following: Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin, yakhrooju min bayni alsulbee waalttarah-iby.

Prior to Mohammad, Hippocrates theorized that sperm went all the way through the kidneys into the ‘lower area’. For centuries this was an established (and incorrect) ‘certainty’ of the start of sperm.

But I will provide you with one of the 'miracles' I find rather dishonest. That the Quran predicts the speed of light.

Read the actual verse that is claimed: http://www.islamicity.com/Science/960703A.SHTML

Richard Carrier summed it up very well.

He makes it look real by inventing a fake connection to Einstein's "second postulate" of Special Relativity (linking the Special with the General Theory), which states that the Special Theory holds in the absence of gravity--so that in the presence of gravity transformation equations are needed. But nothing in Dr. Hassab-Elnaby's math equates to the strength of the sun's gravitational field, so he is clearly not employing any real transformation factor.

The equation Dr. Hassab-Elnaby defends is as follows:
C = 12,000 [lunar revolutions about the earth] x 3682.07 [average orbital velocity of the moon today in km/hr] x 0.89157 [compensation factor for heliocentric gravitation] x 655.71986 [length in hours of one complete lunar orbit transit today] / 86164.0906 seconds [one sidereal day on earth today] = 299792.5 km/s​

The essential number, the only one that has no validity here but that is required for the result to come out as the speed of light, is the compensation factor. There is no basis whatever for introducing this. The calculation without it is entirely correct whether the system orbits the sun or not. Moreover, there is no logic in multiplying lunar velocity by the cosine (why the cosine? No answer) of the degrees of solar arc crossed by the earth in a lunar siderial month (why a month? No answer).

This bogus import was noted by Dr. Neumaier, who aptly called it "pure nonsense." He was also clever enough to catch the fact that if we have to account for that (for whatever reason), then we are also obligated to account for the sun-earth-moon system's revolution around the galactic center (and, I might add, the orbital motion of the milky way within the local cluster), but Dr. Hassab-Elnaby didn't think of this. Ooops!

Homines quicquam credent.
 
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Basirah said:
So why would God help humans if he does not benefit? The question was asked: How does God benefit from lying? God does not benefit from anything obviously since Islam believes God is infinite.


God gains no benefit from kindness just like he gains no benefit from lies.
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In that case you've answered your original question; since there is no benefit in lying to His creations why would He do it.


The Quran says in Surah At-Tariq the following: Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin, yakhrooju min bayni alsulbee waalttarah-iby.

Prior to Mohammad, Hippocrates theorized that sperm went all the way through the kidneys into the ‘lower area’. For centuries this was an established (and incorrect) ‘certainty’ of the start of sperm.
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That isn't a miracle. It has previously been debunked however.

As for your other ''miracle''; The ayats given (in the link) didn't specify the calculation. They merely stated that God has created the sun and moon etc to allow us to record time - heck they didn't even mention LUNAR methods. The calculation was made up by some guy who tried to use Lunar method as the core principle as opposed to solar method.

So what you wrote wasn't a debunking of a miracle, it was a debunking of a theory BASED on a ''miracle'' (quotation marks used because Quranic reference didn't actually point to a miracle of any sort).
 
aamirsaab said:
:sl:

In that case you've answered your original question; since there is no benefit in lying to His creations why would He do it.
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I have not answered anything. I have led us to the conclusion that god cannot benefit from anything if he is infinite. Therefore, without benefiting anything, god in fact has no reason to be nice, or truthful more than he does to lie.


aamirsaab said:
That isn't a miracle. It has previously been debunked however.

As for your other ''miracle''; The ayats given (in the link) didn't specify the calculation. They merely stated that God has created the sun and moon etc to allow us to record time - heck they didn't even mention LUNAR methods. The calculation was made up by some guy who tried to use Lunar method as the core principle as opposed to solar method.

So what you wrote wasn't a debunking of a miracle, it was a debunking of a theory BASED on a ''miracle'' (quotation marks used because Quranic reference didn't actually point to a miracle of any sort).
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It is those types of miracles that are the ones claimed. People draw from vague verses all these miracles which are in reality non-existant.
 
A similar question to the rock one, is can God be evil?

Now before I get attack, Ill go into more detail :P

God is the creator of all. God created Ibliss. Ibliss felt pride and disobeyed God. This would mean sin pre-dates Ibliss' creation. God created *everything* so it then be logical to attribute the originator of sin to God?
 
I already answered that. God gives choice, some choose to do wrong, that isn't God's fault.
 
Isambard said:
A similar question to the rock one, is can God be evil?

Now before I get attack, Ill go into more detail :P

God is the creator of all. God created Ibliss. Ibliss felt pride and disobeyed God. This would mean sin pre-dates Ibliss' creation. God created *everything* so it then be logical to attribute the originator of sin to God?
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I'd rather see it as, God created a creation with freewill that has the ability to create Evil. No one suggest that none of God's creation cannot do Evil. Allah know's why he has created the opportunity (Test?), but we can surely say God does not cause Evil.
 
Md Mashud said:
I'd rather see it as, God created a creation with freewill that has the ability to create Evil. No one suggest that none of God's creation cannot do Evil. Allah know's why he has created the opportunity (Test?), but we can surely say God does not cause Evil.
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Why does god already create someone to test them when he knows all - and therefore knows how the test will play out?
 
Who implied god benefits from the test or that it is relevant for hisself?

As to answer why we have a test, only God knows, its like asking someone why anything exists, who can answer that!
 
Basirah said:
Why does god already create someone to test them when he knows all - and therefore knows how the test will play out?
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Well it wouldn't be fair to condemn people to eternal d4mnation without first giving them at least a test to prove their worth, now is it?
 
Basirah said:
But he knows what they will do already. To deny that is to deny his omniscience.
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How did that statement he made to contradict his omniscience?

The point was that, when accountability takes place - humans would have gone through the test and could not deny what they did.

Imagine I failed you on a test you DIDN'T do because I know you will fail, surely you would be like "If I had done it I would have passed" or atleast you would not be content with the verdict - considering the result of failing it would be detramental!

However, if I gave you test and you failed, then we won't have this issue. None of this contradicts omniscience, or is it to show God has limits in his powers.

Like I said, what he does is not to benefit himself, its for us :).
 
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This conversation reminds me with the book "A conversation with my atheist friend) .. here's a quote:
Another wrong aspect of this question that you imagine the creator submitting to the laws of his own creatures
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I just meant by this quote to think clearly, we are talking about God .. the creator not the creature :)
 
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Basirah said:
I have not answered anything. I have led us to the conclusion that god cannot benefit from anything if he is infinite. Therefore, without benefiting anything, god in fact has no reason to be nice, or truthful more than he does to lie.
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OK. In which case it is up to God's will on whether or not he is ''nice'' or ''evil''. If you are referring to his creations, we don't at the end of the day know what His intentions are; the perceived ''evil'' may be a form of test. Similarly, the perceived ''good'' may be a form of reward. At the end of the day, we cannot, as humans, define whether or not God is being ''evil'' or ''good'' since both are based on perception and as humans we have a considerably smaller perception compared to God (since he is all-knowing)

If however you are referring to a larger scale aka religion, well that's where my friend FAITH comes into it. Any form of system requires faith in it to work - without faith, the system's foundations to that individual are non-existent, in which case you might as well not be part of it. In Islam we, as muslims, have faith that Allah/God is telling us the truth as far as our religion goes. As of yet, I, myself, have found no reason for God to be lying in the Quran. Why would he be telling us the truth? Maybe to help us as humans. Maybe to help end poverty, discrimination, racism etc etc.


It is those types of miracles that are the ones claimed. People draw from vague verses all these miracles which are in reality non-existant.
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Yeah well sometimes, people are silly. Yes there are miracles in the Quran but the point of a miracle is not to scientifically understand it's occurance - hence it is called a miracle.
 
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Abdul Fattah said:
God can do anything. The question is not: "is he able", the questions is: "is he willing?"
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Exactly. The question is really 'Would God lie?'

I do find it somewhat amusing how throughout the Internet, certain atheists ask what God can and can't do, when really, from their point of view, it's all BS to begin with. It's like me asking what the deeper meaning of Morris dancing is on some obscure website.

No offence to pracitioners of that fine British tradition.
 
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Basirah said:
Why does god already create someone to test them when he knows all - and therefore knows how the test will play out?
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:salamext:

If you woke up one day, and you were in heaven/hell, without knowing why you got there, what u did to deserve that place, your deeds, etc. What would u feel? That God wasn't fair right?

This is why God tests us, we have to live through our lives to earn our life in the Afterlife, whether that be in heaven/hell.
 
If God is all powerful, surely God can lie.

And if you follow the Christian Bible, King James Version, God did lie at least once.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 
Pygoscelis said:
If God is all powerful, surely God can lie.

And if you follow the Christian Bible, King James Version, God did lie at least once.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
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First of all, Adam and Eve did die, and so do all of their descendants. The Hebrew idiom used for "in the day" meant a certainty of death, not the immediacy of death. One of those issues with translating words into another language.
 

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