Can religion save the world?

[crayon]

Greetings,

True, but the more faith involved, the more impervious the belief will be to rational criticism. I would argue that it takes far more faith to believe the things that religions expect us to believe than it takes to adhere to a political persuasion.

For the purposes of this post I'll interpret the question as meaning "how could we become a happy, healthy, prosperous and peaceful planet?"

Again, the answer is "I don't know". I can't help suspecting, though, that religion may be one of the things preventing us from getting there. I wouldn't support the forceful eradication of religion, or anything like that, but I would like to think that eventually humanity will just grow out of it. Having said that, I doubt it will happen any time soon. Although there are many factors involved, two are crucial: as long as poverty remains widespread and high quality education remains scarce, religion will have a place.

Peace

But you say that as an athiest. If you ask a Muslim, Christian, or any person of religion, they will tell you that they don't just believe 'on a hunch' like many people assume they do, they believe there is absolute proof, we are completely sure of all that we believe in. At least, this is what a Muslim should be like, it may be different for people of other faiths. So although you regard most of our belief as resting on purely 'faith', that is merely your opinion, we believe otherwise.

I don't believe it's religion that hinders us, on the contrary, it provides the ideal system of life. It's our own human nature that causes a perfect world to be an impossibility. Humans can be greedy, lazy, stupid, etc., and most of the time, it's much easier to be those things instead of compassionate, generous, energetic. If Christians were to apply the teachings of Christianity in every aspect of their lives, be 'ideal' Christians, if Muslims were 'ideal' muslims, etc., do you not believe the world would be a better place? No murder, theft, rape, greed, jealousy, hatred, etc. Most world religions embody the 'ideal' characteristics of what it is that makes a perfect human being, it is we who can not fully apply these in our life.

But your last sentence implies that only the poor and undereducated are religious, which is not the case. People from all walks of life embrace all kinds of religion. Countless millionaires, PhD holders, entrepreneurs, celebrities, the working class, etc. believe in a certain religion.

I think religion is, and always has been, an essential part of the human identity. I guess muslims could call it 'fitra', but it can also be understood as something else. People have always believed in some sort of higher power, or deity, if for nothing else than to explain life and natural occurences, and I don't think it will ever stop, as long as humans remain humans. I've heard of some people who think 'as soon as science solves everything and reveals everything, people will stop believing in religion", which frankly, I think is ridiculous. Science can never and will never explain everything.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

But you say that as an athiest. If you ask a Muslim, Christian, or any person of religion, they will tell you that they don't just believe 'on a hunch' like many people assume they do, they believe there is absolute proof, we are completely sure of all that we believe in. At least, this is what a Muslim should be like, it may be different for people of other faiths. So although you regard most of our belief as resting on purely 'faith', that is merely your opinion, we believe otherwise.

The claim that there is "absolute proof" for any theistic religion is demonstrably untrue. If that were the case, everybody would believe the same religion.

Belief in god rests entirely on faith, just as my belief that there is no god does. Neither of us has proof.

I don't believe it's religion that hinders us, on the contrary, it provides the ideal system of life. It's our own human nature that causes a perfect world to be an impossibility. Humans can be greedy, lazy, stupid, etc., and most of the time, it's much easier to be those things instead of compassionate, generous, energetic. If Christians were to apply the teachings of Christianity in every aspect of their lives, be 'ideal' Christians, if Muslims were 'ideal' muslims, etc., do you not believe the world would be a better place? No murder, theft, rape, greed, jealousy, hatred, etc. Most world religions embody the 'ideal' characteristics of what it is that makes a perfect human being, it is we who can not fully apply these in our life.

I agree with everything here (except the first sentence, of course).

But your last sentence implies that only the poor and undereducated are religious, which is not the case. People from all walks of life embrace all kinds of religion. Countless millionaires, PhD holders, entrepreneurs, celebrities, the working class, etc. believe in a certain religion.

My sentence does not imply that. Read it again.

My point is that poverty and low education levels are correlated with high levels of religious belief. See here:

Education and Religion, Sacerdote and Glaeser, Harvard Institute of Economic Reseach, 2001


Pew Global Attitudes Project, 2007 - this one covers many subjects, but scroll down for a graph on Wealth and Religiosity.

I think religion is, and always has been, an essential part of the human identity. I guess muslims could call it 'fitra', but it can also be understood as something else. People have always believed in some sort of higher power, or deity, if for nothing else than to explain life and natural occurences, and I don't think it will ever stop, as long as humans remain humans.

Humans have also always killed each other. Does that mean it's the right thing to do?

I've heard of some people who think 'as soon as science solves everything and reveals everything, people will stop believing in religion", which frankly, I think is ridiculous. Science can never and will never explain everything.

Yes - that would be a ridiculous argument to make. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously put it forward.

Peace

 

[crayon]

Greetings,

The claim that there is "absolute proof" for any theistic religion is demonstrably untrue. If that were the case, everybody would believe the same religion.

Belief in god rests entirely on faith, just as my belief that there is no god does. Neither of us has proof.

I agree with everything here (except the first sentence, of course).

My sentence does not imply that. Read it again.

My point is that poverty and low education levels are correlated with high levels of religious belief. See here:

Education and Religion, Sacerdote and Glaeser, Harvard Institute of Economic Reseach, 2001


Pew Global Attitudes Project, 2007 - this one covers many subjects, but scroll down for a graph on Wealth and Religiosity.

Humans have also always killed each other. Does that mean it's the right thing to do?

Yes - that would be a ridiculous argument to make. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously put it forward.

Peace

I think it's the definition of 'proof' and what qualifies as it is what people differ on.

My mistake, I misunderstood your sentence. Interesting links, btw, especially the latter.

Of course it's not right, but whether it's right or not is irrelevant. What I'm saying is people have always believed in 'something else', and will continue to do so, no matter what changes happen in the world. Whether it's right or not doesn't matter.

I've had the pleasure of knowing a few morons, I guess.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I think it's the definition of 'proof' and what qualifies as it is what people differ on.

You are quite right. People here on the forum regularly use the word 'proof' in a way that no logician would recognise.

My mistake, I misunderstood your sentence. Interesting links, btw, especially the latter.

Respect.

Of course it's not right, but whether it's right or not is irrelevant. What I'm saying is people have always believed in 'something else', and will continue to do so, no matter what changes happen in the world. Whether it's right or not doesn't matter.

You appear saying that it doesn't matter whether people are right or wrong about the "something else" that they believe in. Lots of people believe Allah exists: doesn't it matter whether they are right or wrong?

Peace

 

[Trumble]

You are quite right. People here on the forum regularly use the word 'proof' in a way that no logician would recognise.

As recognised by the dictionary, to be fair. Add 'absolute', though and it would tend to suggest a degree of certainty that is totally unjustifiable without a king size dollop of faith. As you say, were that not the case we would all be following the same religion.

Yes - that would be a ridiculous argument to make. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously put it forward.

I have - and in a form far from ridiculous, although I don't find it convincing. A surprisingly strong case can be made that the idea we even have beliefs (as well as desires, hopes, wishes, etc, etc) is not only 'just a theory' (which, believe it or not, is actually the majority opinion among both philosophers and scientists these days) but a profoundly mistaken one that would be completely displaced by a completed neuroscience. Should that actually prove to be the case any religion of which I am aware of, including my own, becomes utterly irrelevant if not completely nonsensical.

 

[justahumane]

Such as a belief in democracy?

Random question I just thought of. As an atheist, do you believe that the world can be 'saved'? If yes, by what means?

Well I m writing these lines as a self-confessed believer and a non-muslim. World can never be saved if it is destined to end by ALMIGHTY GOD. But the need is that religion or any other ideology should not act as catalyst in this destiny. The need is that fighting in the name of religion or any other thing should not happen at all. LIVE AND LET LIVE should be the ideology, keep religion as a persosnal affair between urself and GOD.

Peace

 

[crayon]

You appear saying that it doesn't matter whether people are right or wrong about the "something else" that they believe in. Lots of people believe Allah exists: doesn't it matter whether they are right or wrong?

Peace

Not really, no. When I first mentioned all this I said that religion/belief/disbelief in a higher power(s) has been a part of the identity of humans ever since we've first existed. As in, the essence of human beings, the things that separate us from other beings. Of course there is no set definition, but I meant things like having morals, knowing right from wrong, compassion, etc. People kill for different reasons, greed, desire for power, revenge, perhaps those also come under things that make us human. There are some negative characteristics that humans posses and there are positive ones, it depends on the specific one. But the mere fact that they exist is not bad or good, it depends on how these characteristics influence our actions.

Bit of rambling, sorry lol.

World can never be saved if it is destined to end by ALMIGHTY GOD.

Peace

I agree, yup. It may be saved temporarily, but it has to end, because eventually this entire life will end.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Not really, no. When I first mentioned all this I said that religion/belief/disbelief in a higher power(s) has been a part of the identity of humans ever since we've first existed. As in, the essence of human beings, the things that separate us from other beings. Of course there is no set definition, but I meant things like having morals, knowing right from wrong, compassion, etc. People kill for different reasons, greed, desire for power, revenge, perhaps those also come under things that make us human. There are some negative characteristics that humans posses and there are positive ones, it depends on the specific one. But the mere fact that they exist is not bad or good, it depends on how these characteristics influence our actions.

Bit of rambling, sorry lol.

This is so surprising I almost spilt my coffee.

Focusing on Allah, rather than the other aspects of human nature you mentioned, let me ask you a similar question:

Are you saying that it doesn't matter whether Allah truly exists or not?

Peace

 

[crayon]

Greetings,


This is so surprising I almost spilt my coffee.

Focusing on Allah, rather than the other aspects of human nature you mentioned, let me ask you a similar question:

Are you saying that it doesn't matter whether Allah truly exists or not?

Peace

Lol no, you misunderstood, I should have made myself clearer. When I said "not really, no", that was in response to the first part of your post, where you said "you appear to be saying...".

It absolutely matters whether Allah exists or not, because if (since) he exists, we must try to understand why he created us, and then do our best to live life according to what he has ordered us- it's the least you can do for one who has given you countless blessings, one whom your entire existence depends upon.