Can We Coexist?

[bkzbest]

no how it dusnt made sence.

 

[aamirsaab]

Firstly, I'd like to apologise for my late reply, if anyone actually cared .

secondly, i'd like to point out something: if anyone noticed, the conversation i had with Heigou contained none of the following: racism, slagging/insults, one-upmanship.

What it did contain was a large amount of respect and many peacefull and logical requests.

What this means is it is possible to build bridges and have a conversation with a non-muslim without having to shout "Kafir" at every oppurtunity.
It also means it is possible to disagree with someone, but still retain the highest amount of respect.

Now, I'm not going to go through each individual section of the latest reply - I can summarise it right now:

Heigou, what you ask for is impossible. As noble and respectable a request it was, the reality is that to send every middle easterner out of the West into the middle east is impossible. Why?
* Many middle easterners are happy with their life in the West. Infact, most of them moved from the middle east to the west because the lifestyle was actually significantly better.
* If they were to move back to middle east, they wouldn't survive a week - the culture is massively different.
* Many middle easterners uppon hearing your request would probably take the violent approach (I don't think it is neccesary to elaborate, I'm sure we all know by now what is meant)
* Many middle easterners don't actually have a problem with the west. It's the western governments foreign policy that seems to tick many non-westerners off.

There really is nothing else left for me to say. If you do reply, I will read - but there comes a time when the discussion is no longer a discussion, instead it turns into a fight. Heigou, you have attained both my respect and admiration, I wish that we part on these good terms.

Greetings and peace to you all,

We must pray for each other, nothing worthwhile can happen without prayer and coexistance requires God's help in a big way.

We must pray for justoce for all people, the poor and oppressed need justice the most.

We muxt pray for peace on Earth, a peace for all of God's creation.

We have a need to love all people so that we might openly acknowledge that the same God created all of us

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

I thank God that this forum is blessed with your presence. I can only hope others in time will share your view like I do. You bring with your posts something unique: hope - and this is needed amongst human beings today. Infact, now more than ever.

To fellow muslims: listen - for God's sake, please, I cannot stress this enough, please listen. Listen to what non-muslims are saying, and converse with them. Find out what "the problem" is, and come to a solution.

 

[Woodrow]

woodrow,
jews are not a race. they come in all colours.

Apparently you have never tried to tell a Jew that Judaism is not a race.

 

[snakelegs]

Apparently you have never tried to tell a Jew that Judaism is not a race.

the nazis viewed jews as a race.
the jews view themselves a "people" - ahm or ahm yisrael - in hebrew. so in that sense they are like the ummah.

 

[Woodrow]

the nazis viewed jews as a race.
the jews view themselves a "people" - ahm or ahm yisrael - in hebrew. so in that sense they are like the ummah.

OK, I'll agree to that.

 

[seek.learn]

Peace,

... can co-exist with open minded people of various beliefs. Unfortunately, I do not find a lot of people with an open minded approach and mutual respect.

A sad truth.

... to understand beliefs other than mine makes the world an easier place to live in.

Very true.

May God guide us all. May we open our eyes. Aameen.

I really dont think shipping off muslim non-westerner's off back to their homelands is really going to happen. Guess we'll just have to find another way and work it through. Patiently. Peacefully.

God guide us all. Aameen.

Peace

 

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, “You're not an apostate, so your comment that you would be beheaded for practicing YOUR BELIEFS was nothing short of a lie”.

I have as always done my best to not Lie.

What you say I posted is this:

“The problem for you, nimrod, is that there is no beheading for proselytizing in Islam, but there is stoning for death for proselytizing in the Bible” (corrected for spelling).

Let’s look at what I have posted:

“Your religion teaches that I cannot practice what my religion compels me to do.
My faith compels me to publicly peacefully spread the message of Jesus as it is recorded in the bible to those who have not heard that message.

Your religion teaches that I am to be punished if I do that.
I am to be punished, not by an individual but rather, by the leadership of the communities/State”.

Now just to be clear to everyone, do you Ansar Al-‘Adl, agree that Islam prescribes punishment for those who publicly teach/preach faiths other than Islam?

If I lied, please show me where.

I believe what I stated is that under Islam I would be punished for practicing what my faith compels me to do. I did not say, even once, that I would be be-headed.

I reserved my statements, concerning be-heading, for those that convert away from Islam.

Your statement “I would agree that the punishment for apostasy should only be done within the parameters of the Shari'ah law, which would eliminate any problems.”

That overlooks the inherent problems from the get-go.

The problem is this, even if a truly Islamic State existed, the convert would still be killed, by the State.

Do you agree or disagree that the prescribed Islamic punishment for those that convert, to my faith and they do what their new found faith compels them to do, is death, most likely by beheading?


Ansar Al-‘Adl, “Even after reading a paragraph twice you still do not understand it? FOR A THIRD TIME I wrote:
Yes, it is a complete way of life. 'way of life' is not synonymous with political entity”.

Yes, I read your statement, more than once. However, your statement makes no sense to me, then, nor now.

I gave you several examples of the Islamic faith acting in the capacity of the State, prescribing punishments for offenses committed by the citizenry, yet Islam and the State in a truly Islamic state are not synonymous?

Yet you don’t see how any of this has any impact on our capacity to co-exist?

I guess I am just not getting it.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Now just to be clear to everyone, do you Ansar Al-‘Adl, agree that Islam prescribes punishment for those who publicly teach/preach faiths other than Islam?

NO. There is no prescribed punishment for preaching other faiths, it is a discretionary (ta'zir) issue, not a prescribed (hadd) issue.

I believe what I stated is that under Islam I would be punished for practicing what my faith compels me to do. I did not say, even once, that I would be be-headed.

You said:

According to Islam, you can pursue you beliefs. If I do the same, according to Islam, I might be be-headed.
[*]
​

This is an inescapable contradiction. You clearly spoke about yourself here, saying that beheading could befall you for practicing your beliefs, and now you claim that you never spoke about beheading with regard to yourself. I hope you will admit your error rather than attempting to conceal it.

The problem is this, even if a truly Islamic State existed, the convert would still be killed, by the State.

But the problem is that you fail to realize we are not talking about what it is like to live under an Islamic state or the Shari'ah punishments. We are talking about whether the peaceful coexistence of Muslims and Non-Muslims is possible or not. The fact that there are practicing muslim communities living and contributing in non-muslim countries is proof that peaceful coexistence is possible, just as the countless testimonies of non-muslims in an Islamic state are. I have provided the quotes before and I have no problem providing them again.
Welldiorant:

The people of dhimma: Christians, Zaradishts, Jews and Sabi'a; enjoyed a degree of tolerance during the Umayyad rule which can never be assimilated to Christian countries nowadays. They were free to practice their rituals. (History of Civilization, 131/12)
​

A History of the Jewish People, edited by Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson (Harvard University Press, 1976), an Israeli historian:

"The height of magnificence and luxury was reached by the wealthy Jews in the lands of Islam, particularly in Moslem Spain. We know that the court bankers of Baghdad in the tenth century kept open house for numerous guests and for the poor. Similarly, the ceremonies of the Jewish leaders in Babylonia [Iraq] and the patronage of the leading Jews in Moslem Spain, indicate conditions of ease and plenty.

"The attitude toward these non-Moslems in the Islamic territories was shaped in principle in accordance with the concept of dhimma, meaning protection granted to them by agreement or treaty… In return, their lives and property were protected and, in accordance with the general attitude of Islam to infidels, they were assured liberty of faith and worship. They were also permitted to organize themselves as they wished, and the Jews fully availed themselves of that permission.

"From the Jewish viewpoint, this conglomerate of Moslem attitudes to infidels was easier to live with than the one that had been established by Christianity, particularly in the Byzantine Empire. As we have noted above, for hundreds of years the overwhelming majority of Jews lived in the Islamic territories. Although it is possible to perceive some Christian impact on the Moslem attitude towards non-believers and even towards the Christians themselves, the moderation with which the Moslems applied this influence proved to be of great importance to the majority of Jewry over a long period. Unlike the masses of Christians and pagans who joined the Moslems over the first half century or so, the overwhelming majority of the Jews under Moslem rule held firmly to their own faith." ​

As to the settlement and economic activity in the 16th and 17th centuries and the establishment of the Sephardic Diaspora in the Ottoman Empire, the above book states:

"A considerable stream of exiles from Spain overflowed into the Ottoman Empire. Once the latter had annexed Erez Yisrael, it became a lodestone for Marranos who wished to repent and return to their former faith…. The sultan at the time of the expulsion, Bayezid, welcomed the refugees fleeing from the fanatical Christians. As recorded by a Jewish contemporary ‘the Sultan sent men ahead, and spread the word through his kingdom in writing as well, declaring that none of his officers in any of his cities dare to drive the Jews out or expel them, but all of them were to welcome the Jews cordially.’ It can be assumed that this imperial protection and the order granting right of domicile were issued through the influence of the leaders of the long-established Jewish community in the Ottoman Empire… Success was not restricted exclusively to medical and court circles. It seems that in the Ottoman Empire it was felt that the absorption of the exiles from the West provided social, cultural and even military advantages… The exiles gradually dispersed throughout the main cities of the Empire. Many synagogues were to be found in Constantinople during the sixteenth century. In this city they settled in quarters where Jews had not formerly resided. Salonika also became one of their main centres, and similarly Adrianople and Smyrna (Izmir). The exiles also established themselves in smaller cities. Expulsions from southern Italy helped to diversify the Jewish community and increase the various congregations in the Empire." (pp. 631-633)
​

As for the red-herring of apostasy, we are talking about the peaceful coexistence of Muslims and Non-Muslims. We are not talking about apostates. I don't mind discussing apostasy but when I discuss an issue I prefer to give it full attention and in-depth examination, so if you want to continue discussing apostasy, pm me and I'll reopen the thread on apostasy in Islam and you and I can have a complete debate there.

Yes, I read your statement, more than once. However, your statement makes no sense to me, then, nor now.

I don't see how you could have read it. You claimed that I was saying Islam wasn't political yet I CLEARLY said in that paragraph that Islam was the POLITICAL ideology of an Islamic state. I said it was not a political ENTITY. I'd like to think that you wouldn't intentionally misquote me, but your insistence that you read my paragraph multiple times coupled with your claim that I said Islam wasn't political seems to suggest otherwise.

Islam and the State in a truly Islamic state are not synonymous?

No they are not. We can say that a state passed a new law, made a good plan, or that a state declared a truce or war, or that a state is very swift in making decsions - and in all of these cases we are clearly speaking about a current political entity and not the religion of Islam.

Regards

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you all

You bring with your posts something unique: hope

There is always hope aamirsaab, because there is a just God and we must trust in God to put all things right in a just and merciful way.

God will know that he put all people on Earth, God will know that he gave you an Islamic message, God will know that he gave me a Christian message, but why should the same God apparently give each of us what seems to be conflicting beliefs?

I sense that we will be judged in the same kind of way that we judge, and treat other people. In many ways I kind of sense that the bigger test for each one of us is how we relate to people who are perceived as being different to ourselves.

When God puts all things right, he must surely put things right in a greater way than mankind is able to. God will know that he created all people, and he will know that he gave each one of us the freedom to be a steward for his creation, God will know the gifts that he has given to each one of us, and he will know how we used these gifts.

Would God would want all his creation to live in peace freely and willingly. It does not make any sense at all that God should create us so that we should be in conflict with each other.

In the spirit of seeking peace on Earth

Eric

 

[HeiGou]

:secondly, i'd like to point out something: if anyone noticed, the conversation i had with Heigou contained none of the following: racism, slagging/insults, one-upmanship.

Oh I don't know, I'm pretty good at all those things. I promise I will try harder in the future!

Heigou, what you ask for is impossible. As noble and respectable a request it was, the reality is that to send every middle easterner out of the West into the middle east is impossible. Why?
* Many middle easterners are happy with their life in the West. Infact, most of them moved from the middle east to the west because the lifestyle was actually significantly better.

I am sure that many Muslims were happy in Spain in 1491 as well. After all the families of many of them had been there for a few hundred years. It was not impossible to remove them all from Spain. I agree it is unlikely that we can ask them nicely and they will go.

* If they were to move back to middle east, they wouldn't survive a week - the culture is massively different.
* Many middle easterners uppon hearing your request would probably take the violent approach (I don't think it is neccesary to elaborate, I'm sure we all know by now what is meant)

I don't know. They are all Muslims. Can't be that massively different. And a significant number of them actively prefer that Middle Eastern way of life to the British alternative. God knows I hear it all the time around here. I think that if they take a violent approach it will not change the outcome. There are not enough Muslims in the West, yet, to stop Western governments doing whatever they like.

* Many middle easterners don't actually have a problem with the west. It's the western governments foreign policy that seems to tick many non-westerners off.

I used to believe that but opinion poll after opinion poll suggests otherwise. Middle Easterns basically do not like the West's way of life or culture. They say so if asked. Often. I don't think that the West's foreign policy ticks many people off besides Muslims. I think that the West has large reservoirs of support in the Hindu and Buddhist world.

Heigou, you have attained both my respect and admiration, I wish that we part on these good terms.

I am sorry that we cannot agree any more. I like many people around here. I respect many of them too. Your posts are always worth reading. But if the Muslim community will not lift a finger to do anything about terrorism - apart from blaming me and Blair of course - then something has to be done. If not this, what?

 

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl quoting myself “You said:
According to Islam, you can pursue you beliefs. If I do the same, according to Islam, I might be be-headed. “(Can We Coexist?)[*]

You are correct, I stand corrected.

I did mis-speak.

I would be punished, the convert may be be-headed.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You are correct, I stand corrected.

I did mis-speak.

Thank you. I respect your acknowledgement of that; it makes dialogue much easier.

I also think dialogue is the key to peaceful coexistence. We need to reach out to eachother and share our beliefs and values with eachother in a friendly manner to foster understanding and mutual respect.

Regards

 

[scentsofjannah]

Re: Muslim leaders condemn terrorism

ansar,
you will see what i am saying as being islamophobic or anti-islam, all i am trying to do is be honest about why some westerners regard this extremist trend with alarm.
you counter these statements with stuff like "there is no vigilante justice in islam"
"the punishments for apostasy and blasphemy can only be carried out by an islamic government, and only after certain criteria have been met." (not an exact quote).
while this may be true, it has nothing to do with facts "on the ground". the fact is there are many muslims who have these sentiments, including many right here on forum. how many people here said the cartoonists deserved to die? how many said that an apostate must be killed? for that matter, how many have said homosexuals should be killed?

as i've said, it is not a matter of right and wrong - it is that this mentality is incomprehensible and totally foreign to the western mindset.
so what good is citing the shariah when the issue is this kind of interpretion of shariah.

look at some of these placards in protests in london. (by people living in the west!)

"slay those who insult islam"
"europe, you will pay. demoliton is on its way"
"whoever insults a prophet kill him"
"democracy go to hell"
"europe your 9/11 will come"
"massacre those who insult islam"
"behead those who insult islam"
"freedom go to hell"

yes, these views are probably not the majority and were condemned, but the fact is, that a number of people hold them. people living in the west.
this mindset is incomprehensible to the average westerner.
if the rift is this wide, i do wonder if we can live together, and sadly, i am coming around to thinking that maybe we can't and i do not like feeling this way.

We can coexist if we reject the extreme fringes from all traditions and backgrounds..those people who made that demonstration were no more than 100 frustrated young men..it was wrong i was disgusted ..two or three major demonstrations ensued..it was peaceful representing mainstream Islam more than 40,000 attended absolutely no inflammatory placards..and the media covered it Alhamdullilah.

We see demonstrations and protests by racists from the BNP(UK) or the Neo Nazis in Scandinavia and Germany..does this mean a muslim will just generalise all white people? and say 'i cannot live with these white people anymore'?

Homosexuality as you know is totally forbidden in Islam ..however we cannot establish anything until there are atleast 4 witnessess..so if it's done publicly..then the punishment is the same for a hetrosexual couple doing a sexual act in public...what goes on behind closed doors only Allah knows and He will see to them on the Last Day...also anything that promotes premarital/extramarital sex or such deviant behaviour will be punished in an Islamic State...here in the west its totally permissable and I was even shocked to find out there are real wife swapping clubs in my city...where the couples exchange spouses and actually watch each other doing the act with a total stranger...all in the name of 'fun'...

about Apostates ..they shouldnt be killed if they pose no threat..ie they dont work as spies etc

read the following Q& A from Islamonline.net

Name of Questioner
Hossam

Title
Should an Apostate Be Put to Death?

Question

Respected scholars, as-salamu `alaykum. Is it true that in Islam a person must be put to death if he or she converts to another religion? Jazakum Allahu khayran.

Date
27/Mar/2006

Name of Counsellor
Ahmad Kutty

Topic
Apostasy



Answer



Wa`alaykum as-salamu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question, which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to knowledgeable people to learn more about the teachings of Islam.

It is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who choose to leave Islam. To kill anyone who chooses to follow a religion other than Islam is against the fundamental teachings of the Qur'an. Freedom of conscience is a fundamental principle of the Qur'an that is clearly stated. Thus, if apostates cause no harm to the Muslim community and do not call for spreading hostility towards Islam, they should not to be punished; rather they should be advised kindly and wisely to learn the truth about Islam.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:

Freedom of conscience is one of the fundamental rights of humans enshrined in the Qur'an; it is therefore, absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam allows putting people to death just because they convert to another religion.

Even a casual reader of the Qur'an will not fail to be impressed by its emphasis on the freedom of conscience as a cornerstone of its moral structure. To cite a few verses as follows:

[There shall be no compulsion in religion. Distinct has now become the right way from [the wayof] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing] ( Al-Baqarah 2:256)

[If it had been your Lord's will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?] (Yunus 10:99)

[And if they surrender themselves unto Him (i.e. God), they are on the right path; but if they turn away – behold, thy duty (O Muhammad,) is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.] (Aal `Imran 3:20)

[Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger's only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him].] (Al-Ma'idah 5:92)

[But if they turn away [from thee, O Prophet, know that] Wehave not sent thee to be their keeper: thou art not bound to do more than deliver the message [entrusted to thee] .] (Ash-Shura 42:48)

I should further state that all of the moral teachings of the Qur'an are based on the notion of moral responsibility, which entails the freedom of choice. Therefore, to state that one must be put to death for choosing to disbelieve would only undermine the entire moral edifice of the Qur'an.

Furthermore, the Qur'an does not allow anyone to harm those who are leaving in peace, no matter what religion they hold on to. This principle has been clearly stated in the Qur'an as follows:

[Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.] (An-Nisaa' 4:90)

In pursuance of this policy, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) issued clear directives to his soldiers never to disturb those who are engaged in any form of worship. The policy of living and letting others to live is firmly enshrined in the following verses:

[Say: O disbelievers! I do not worship what you worship, Nordo you worship what I worship. ... to you your religion, and to me, mine.] (Al-Kafirun 109:1-3, 6)

In full conformity with the above teachings, neither the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) nor any of the four rightly guided caliphs who succeeded him were in the habit of hunting down people and executing them for merely changing their religions. Rather, they refrained from doing so except in rare cases involving treason. Treason, however, is another matter. The punishment for treason in the Qur'an is as strict as it is in the Hebrew Bible. But it must never be confused with mere change of religion.

In conclusion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who covert to another religion.

Source http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1141277529583

also check these links

Islam & freedom of beliefhttp://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503548996&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

Apostates should they be killed or saved? http://answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

hope that allays your fears.


Peace

 

[scentsofjannah]

Also may i add i didnt see your post as islamophobic or anti Islam..you had genuine concerns..

Ive had Muslims tell me that people who leave Islam should be killed..and then i tell them i know an exapostate brother from belgium who is now a practising muslim and then they have no answer.

Sadly many speak without knowledge and also ive noticed that this forum has a lot of young people who would rather just spend too much time on the net than gaining knowledge.

 

[nimrod]

Scents of Jannah “about Apostates ..they shouldn’t be killed if they pose no threat..ie they don’t work as spies etc”

Tell me exactly what that means. Can I stand on the street corner and say to folks passing by that “The founder of Islam wasn’t a prophet, he lied and Islam is false”?

Would you defend my right to say such things?

Did you defend the recent apostate from Afghanistan either in word or deed?

Perhaps you did, I don’t know.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[nimrod]

Scents of Jannah, have you read this thread from front to back?

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4738-islam-apostasy.html

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Keltoi]

I see the main hurdle to co-existence as political more than religious. Western society has "progressed" or "declined", depending upon your point of view, into a secular society. The freedom of speech is one of the most important tenets of this secular philosophy. I understand that the insulting cartoons were just that, insulting. Christians face ridicule and insults from publications and individuals on a daily basis, and it has weakened the Christian character of the U.S.. However, I want my government to be secular, and I want speech protected. My advice would be, if you don't like secular freedoms, don't move to a secular country.

 

[scentsofjannah]

Scents of Jannah “about Apostates ..they shouldn’t be killed if they pose no threat..ie they don’t work as spies etc”Tell me exactly what that means.

I hope you have read the links i posted...basically if people just leave the faith then that in itself shouldnt warrant any 'death penalty' however we have seen in the history of Islam , instances where the apostates pretend to be muslims and then later go to the other side and help them in their aggression against the muslims.

Can I stand on the street corner and say to folks passing by that “The founder of Islam wasn’t a prophet, he lied and Islam is false”?Would you defend my right to say such things?

Islam is for criticism and debate..we dont want to stifle either but there should be a fine line drawn between whats considered criticism and whats considered insult..you have the complete right to believe what you want to believe about Islam. We should seek to make our societies more tolerant and understanding of others so we can live harmoniusly and i seriously dont see how standing on a street corner and shouting to people that 'Islam is this or that' or 'Christianity is this or that' would contribute to community relations.What would be better is to have a mature discussion/dialogue between the various different faithgroups in a respectable place.

Did you defend the recent apostate from Afghanistan either in word or deed?

Perhaps you did, I don’t know.

Thanks
Nimrod

I dont think they chopped off his head and i certainly couldnt care less who left Islam or who embraced it..Islam isnt in need of people, its people who are in need of Islam...especially in these very dark days..like i said earlier i know an exapostate..who is now a muslim..it is possible that God will guide back whoever strayed from His path, especially if they want to be guided.

Christian missionaries have admitted that muslims are the most stubborn people to convert and while the colonialists have suceeded in converting, nearly the entire SouthAmerican continent and many African nations , parts of Eastern Asia etc..they have never succeeded in converting a single muslim country. They have achieved some success lately (not mass conversions mind you) when the Aid organisations who are mostly christian go to deprived muslim areas and help the muslims.

As Muslims we should find out why they do convert ..if it for material gain etc then we ought to be helping them out...not threatening them with concepts alien to Islam such as 'convert or die'.

Peace

 

[nimrod]

Scents of Jannah “I seriously don’t see how standing on a street corner and shouting to people that 'Islam is this or that' or 'Christianity is this or that”, thanks for the positive answer, although I said nothing about “shouting”.

“I don’t think they chopped off his head and I certainly couldn’t care less who left Islam or who embraced it”, that is rather a bit of a non-answer.

Most certainly, if the Western world had assumed your position, the poor fellow would have had his head chopped off.

One thing some folks seem to missing is this:

That fellow was peacefully doing what he was doing. He wasn’t hurting anyone, nor calling for anyone to be hurt. Yet, due to Islam, he almost lost his life.

He could not peacefully co-exist with Muslims, although he was living and acting perfectly peaceful.

Snake-Legs, personally, I consider that a very powerful statement. Think about it.

I just can’t bring myself to side with folks that would murder people who are acting peacefully.

The time for that has passed, God’s commands to Israel was for a certain people, living in a certain time.

We are not those people. We are not living in those times.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[scentsofjannah]

Scents of Jannah “I seriously don’t see how standing on a street corner and shouting to people that 'Islam is this or that' or 'Christianity is this or that”, thanks for the positive answer, although I said nothing about “shouting”.

ello ello!..apologies heh you did mention 'street' and people do usually raise their voice much higher than normal etc when they want people to hear them.

“I don’t think they chopped off his head and I certainly couldn’t care less who left Islam or who embraced it”, that is rather a bit of a non-answer.

let me remind you once again of the Q&A on the Islamonline.net site

It is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who choose to leave Islam. To kill anyone who chooses to follow a religion other than Islam is against the fundamental teachings of the Qur'an. Freedom of conscience is a fundamental principle of the Qur'an that is clearly stated.

nimrod i agree with him 100% ..hope that is clear to you!

Most certainly, if the Western world had assumed your position, the poor fellow would have had his head chopped off.

errm didnt understand this..care to explain?

One thing some folks seem to missing is this:That fellow was peacefully doing what he was doing. He wasn’t hurting anyone, nor calling for anyone to be hurt. Yet, due to Islam, he almost lost his life.

you're right that he was just living his life ..doing his thing..but then again why do you blame Islam? Islam is absolutely clear that there is no compulsion in religion..we cannot force people to be muslims nor can we force them to remain muslims ..the person should be a muslim out of conviction not out of fear or pressure/compulsion...they should believe in Islam wholeheartedly otherwise its useless for them to be muslim..Islam is absolutely clear about that.

He could not peacefully co-exist with Muslims, although he was living and acting perfectly peaceful.

The whole thing has been mishandled ..it was really a shame..they had no right to treat him that way like he was some kind of criminal.

I just can’t bring myself to side with folks that would murder people who are acting peacefully.

and Islam is against that.

Peace